RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

FrancieBrady

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Are the numbers confidential? Those claiming deep knowledge of the period should presumably be able to provide simply facts.

No they aren't confidential. A good researcher could find them on google I am sure. I would only remember them if specific numbers mattered. What matters for me is that a lot of people died.

jmcc

Odhinn wrote: »

Indeed. One might wonder why the French have no commemoration for the lads in the "Das Reich" division, or the vichy regime.

It would be more accurate to ask why the French don't commemorate the 33rd Waffen SS (Charlemange) division. That was the SS division raised in France.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/33rd_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_Charlemagne_(1st_French)

Regards...jmcc

intellectual dosser

jmcc wrote: »

It would be more accurate to ask why the French don't commemorate the 33rd Waffen SS (Charlemange) division. That was the SS division raised in France.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/33rd_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_Charlemagne_(1st_French)

Regards...jmcc

Do you know of many commemorations of the SS anywhere?

Thats not like for like at all.

Odhinn

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Do you know of many commemorations of the SS anywhere?

Thats not like for like at all.

What would you consider "like for like"?

intellectual dosser

Odhinn wrote: »

What would you consider "like for like"?

I'm not the one trying to make the point.

I've no idea what you'd liken an Irish commemoration of the RIC to, but its not a French (or any) commemoration of the SS.

Odhinn

intellectual dosser wrote: »

I'm not the one trying to make the point.

I've no idea what you'd liken an Irish commemoration of the RIC to, but its not a French (or any) commemoration of the SS.

...because both were occupation forces with little real regard for the populations they were imposed upon. The Gestapo wiould be another such organisation. Also the KGB in countries unfortunate enough to fall under the soviet Russias veil of influence

intellectual dosser

Odhinn wrote: »

...because both were occupation forces with little real regard for the populations they were imposed upon. The Gestapo wiould be another such organisation. Also the KGB in countries unfortunate enough to fall under the soviet Russias veil of influence

I think its a stretch to liken the RIC to the SS, the Gestapo or the KGB. They weren't rounding up Jews for extermination.

Another difference for me in the comparison with the Charlemagne SS example is that Irishmen didnt join the RIC in the immediate months and years after Britain began their occupation, like the French/German case. They were Irishmen joining the police force.

marieholmfan

intellectual dosser wrote: »

I think its a stretch to liken the RIC to the SS, the Gestapo or the KGB. They weren't rounding up Jews for extermination.

Another difference for me in the comparison with the Charlemagne SS example is that Irishmen didnt join the RIC in the immediate months and years after Britain began their occupation, like the French/German case. They were Irishmen joining the police force.

The RIC stole food from starving people. In the 1840s this whole country was a death camp.It's

Odhinn

intellectual dosser wrote: »

I think its a stretch to liken the RIC to the SS, the Gestapo or the KGB. They weren't rounding up Jews for extermination.

Those groups were dedicated to hunting down resistance movements withthin the states they were deployed in. You might explain to us what the difference between say the treatment of Dutch resistance and Irish resistance groupings.

intellectual dosser

marieholmfan wrote: »

The RIC stole food from starving people. In the 1840s this whole country was a death camp.It's

So, staying with the point I'm trying to make, The SS and Gestapo created their death camps and from beginning to end managing those death camps was a core part of their remit. You can cite accounts of attrocities by the RIC but they didnt create the famine.

So, along with the other reasons I mentioned, the Charlemagne comparison doesnt weigh up for me.

intellectual dosser

Odhinn wrote: »

Those groups were dedicated to hunting down resistance movements withthin the states they were deployed in. You might explain to us what the difference between say the treatment of Dutch resistance and Irish resistance groupings.

Would this research thesis be funded?

Joking aside the SS / Gestapo weren't 'dedicated' to what you describe, again I'd reference the rounding up of Jews for extermination but I'd be repeating myself.

I've made the point I've been trying to make, and I'm leaving it there.

The Rape of Lucretia

Odhinn wrote: »

Those groups were dedicated to hunting down resistance movements withthin the states they were deployed in. You might explain to us what the difference between say the treatment of Dutch resistance and Irish resistance groupings.

The Dutch were indeed resistance. The Irish were secessionist terrorists.

FrancieBrady

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The Dutch were indeed resistance. The Irish were secessionist terrorists.

If you use violence, everyone's a 'terrorist'. If you are being shot to death, burned out, or shot, it doesn't really matter if your killer has the force of laws his rulers made behind him.

The Rape of Lucretia

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If you use violence, everyone's a 'terrorist'. If you are being shot to death, burned out, or shot, it doesn't really matter if your killer has the force of laws his rulers made behind him.

It does. Thats the definition of terrorism - violence wihout the force of law behind it.

We cant make up our own meaning for words - it makes communication impossible.

FrancieBrady

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

It does. Thats the definition of terrorism - violence wihout the force of law behind it.

We cant make up our own meaning for words - it makes communication impossible.

Who's laws?

'Terrorist' means one who uses terror.

If I believe the man in front of me is an illegal invader and he kills me...who is the 'terrorist'?

fundi

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If you use violence, everyone's a 'terrorist'.

If you do not wear a uniform, and your aim is to shoot vulnerable people in the back, and melt back in to the civilian population, then you are a terrorist. Over 500 RIC were ambushed and killed, many in front of their kids, some even at mass. Yes some RIC behaved badly too, but not all.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If you are being shot to death, burned out, or shot, it doesn't really matter if your killer has the force of laws his rulers made behind him.

In the decade before independence, most of those who "shot to death, burned out, or shot" were Republicans.

Zebra3

intellectual dosser wrote: »

So, staying with the point I'm trying to make, The SS and Gestapo created their death camps and from beginning to end managing those death camps was a core part of their remit. You can cite accounts of attrocities by the RIC but they didnt create the famine.

So, along with the other reasons I mentioned, the Charlemagne comparison doesnt weigh up for me.

Can you stop badmouthing the SS and the Gestapo?

Hardworking people just trying to feed their families.

FrancieBrady

fundi wrote: »

If you do not wear a uniform, and your aim is to shoot vulnerable people in the back, and melt back in to the civilian population, then you are a terrorist. Over 500 RIC were ambushed and killed, many in front of their kids, some even at mass. Yes some RIC behaved badly too, but not all.


In the decade before independence, most of those who "shot to death, burned out, or shot" were Republicans.

It's a ridiculous and redundant term in the context of an invasion/occupation/colonisation
The soldier sent for trial this week, shot his victim in the back, after months of intimidation and harrassment by his fellow soldiers. No 'uniform' excuses that. It's downright terrorism, because they used terror.

Odhinn

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Would this research thesis be funded?

Joking aside the SS / Gestapo weren't 'dedicated' to what you describe, again I'd reference the rounding up of Jews for extermination but I'd be repeating myself.

I've made the point I've been trying to make, and I'm leaving it there.

...they were tasked with eliminating resistance groups within the states they were deployed to.

KWAG2019

The RIC just doing their job:
“ "Here are some of the cases I have collected: A youth sent to gaol for a month for whistling derisively at the police; four men and a boy, aged thirteen, arrested for taking part in a concert at which national songs were sung;”

KWAG2019

"two girls arrested at Clonmel for giving their names in Irish; a man arrested in Dublin for selling flags and giving his name in Irish; a man sentenced to two months for singing seditious choruses” That means everyone who Paid for a download of the Wolfe Tones would get months from these working class Catholic Irishmen

KWAG2019

"a man given two months' hard labour for taking part in a concert at which seditious songs were sung; a man tried by court-martial and given two years' hard labour for reading out a manifesto issued by the Republican Party declaring the right of the people of Ireland to free speech”

A right to be denied us by some in academia, by those in the media particularly the IT. We’re bigoted, backward, not mature, vitriolic.

KWAG2019

"Here is a case of a number of men who got a month each for singing the Soldier's Song. Here is a case of a boy called McGinn, aged sixteen, who got a month for carrying a Sinn Fein flag”

KWAG2019

You’re looking at the suppression of a people and a culture. You’re looking at colonialism and the RIC. Look at their defenders here and in politics and the media. Stand with them if you want.

marieholmfan

fundi wrote: »

If you do not wear a uniform, and your aim is to shoot vulnerable people in the back, and melt back in to the civilian population, then you are a terrorist. Over 500 RIC were ambushed and killed, many in front of their kids, some even at mass. Yes some RIC behaved badly too, but not all.


In the decade before independence, most of those who "shot to death, burned out, or shot" were Republicans.

Pity it wasn't 5,000. Fair play to the IRA for not killing the kids. As Fergal Keane OBE shows us. NITS MAKE LICE.

J Mysterio

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Coveney? He was a bit busy through all the shennanigans. Did you see the presser last night outside Stormont, both he and Smith looked like they literally hadn't slept for a week.
I don't think I ever seen two politicians look so wrecked. Worth searching it out.

I have a lot of respect for Coveney. He has done an excellent job representing this country through the Brexit negotiations.

If he was tired, its likely because he was busting his ass making a workable agreement for the North. Something that now seems to be working. He is deserving credit for that also.

I feel a bit sorry for him as - seems to me - FG are going out, and he was a whisker away from taking the leadership and will likely now be in opposition despite all his good work.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Who's laws?

'Terrorist' means one who uses terror.

If I believe the man in front of me is an illegal invader and he kills me...who is the 'terrorist'?

No it doesn't that is just the child like simple meaning, that the American's are prone to latch on to.

A terrorist is more often then not a member of an unlawful group with political aims.

Much like the lads from 1916 would be strictly defined as terrorists no matter what the spin nowadays, and morally as well because they had no mandate.

But even the war of independence the Volunteers can be deemed as a terrorist organisation as they were an unlawful group with political aims.

Also the anti treaty side can be termed as terrorists during the Civil war because they were an unlawful group with political aims.

If you look at the CJ Terrorist offences act 2005

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2005/act/2/section/4/enacted/en/html#sec4
It defines terrorist activity under s4 of the act -

“terrorist activity” means an act that is committed in or outside the State and that—

(a) if committed in the State, would constitute an offence specified in Part 1 of Schedule 2 , and

(b) is committed with the intention of—

(i) seriously intimidating a population,

(ii) unduly compelling a government or an international organisation to perform or abstain from performing an act, or

(iii) seriously destabilising or destroying the fundamental political, constitutional, economic or social structures of a state or an international organisation;

FrancieBrady

J Mysterio wrote: »

I have a lot of respect for Coveney. He has done an excellent job representing this country through the Brexit negotiations.

If he was tired, its likely because he was busting his ass making a workable agreement for the North. Something that now seems to be working. He is deserving credit for that also.

I feel a bit sorry for him as - seems to me - FG are going out, and he was a whisker away from taking the leadership and will likely now be in opposition despite all his good work.

I fully agree, and have heaped praise on him in the Brexit thread as well as McEntee, and Maread McGuinness and the other Brexit spokesman (can't think of his name)
Coveney as a politician is leagues ahead of Leo.
But in my mid 50's having followed politics all my life I can give you a tip, at some point in his career boards,ie will be awash with posts about his arrogance, the specific FG type arrogance, that turns on the people if he doesn't get his way.

J Mysterio

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I fully agree, and have heaped praise on him in the Brexit thread as well as McEntee, and Maread McGuinness and the other Brexit spokesman (can't think of his name)
Coveney as a politician is leagues ahead of Leo.
But in my mid 50's having followed politics all my life I can give you a tip, at some point in his career boards,ie will be awash with posts about his arrogance, the specific FG type arrogance, that turns on the people if he doesn't get his way.

Doesn't mean I will go along with that. As things stand, he is deserving of a medal for his service to Ireland.

gormdubhgorm

marieholmfan wrote: »

Pity it wasn't 5,000. Fair play to the IRA for not killing the kids. As Fergal Keane OBE shows us. NITS MAKE LICE.

Nothing hyperbolic about that at all.
In your head Fergal Keane has committed a dasterdly crime just because he clearly stated that he had descendants who were members of the RIC.
Also getting an OBE is a crime in your eyes.

I am sorry to disappoint you but many Irish people are descended from RIC officers - most likely some of your relations/friends/family

You can check here -

https://www.findmypast.ie/articles/world-records/full-list-of-the-irish-family-history-records/education-and-work/ireland-royal-irish-constabulary-service-records-1816-1922

Plus Roger Casement has a knighthood

https://www.rte.ie/centuryireland/index.php/articles/the-life-and-death-of-roger-casement

Bono has a knighthood

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/bono-accepts-british-knighthood-1.805058

I suppose they are scum and tanspawn as you call it?

Oh and the cause of the 1913 lockout William Martin Murphy refused a Knighthood.
Is he a hero in your eyes now?

https://comeheretome.com/2013/02/22/the-refused-knighthood-of-william-martin-murphy/