RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What has the enjoyment of sport got to do with definitions of republicanism or national culture?

Are all the Irish works of literature conceived in and written in English NOT a part of the Irish cultural canon?

You can enjoy British culture but not to the detriment of Irish culture.
This is what the Irish people have failed to do.

Not only that as I said many seem to really identify with British culture yet on the other hand protest the RIC/DMP commemoration - claiming they were all scum terrorists.
Yet many in the RIC were more 'culturally Irish' than the protesters of the RIC/DMP today that is the bit that winds me up. Not all the RIC committed attrocites - some did no doubt about that.

But many of these protesters ignore the atrocities committed by republicans of the same era - dunmanway/newry etc.

But in recent times the same people abhor them Omagh/Lyra McKee/Eniskillen etc.
They have the capacity to pretend it is not the same Republicanism - but it is.
It is the same fundamental goals.

Anyway I have said my bit.
I will only be repeating myself if I post anymore.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You can enjoy British culture but not to the detriment of Irish culture.
This is what the Irish people have failed to do.

Not only that as I said many seem to really identify with British culture yet on the other hand protest the RIC/DMP commemoration - claiming they were all scum terrorists.
Yet many in the RIC were more 'culturally Irish' than the protesters of the RIC/DMP today that is the bit that winds me up.
Also many of these protesters ignore the atrocities committed by republicans of the same era.
But in recent times abhor them Omagh/Lyra McKee/Eniskillen etc.
They have the capacity to pretend it is not the same Republicanism - but it is.
It is the same fundamental goals.

The 'Irishness' of some of the RIC/DMP is uncontested, that is why the Expert Group recommended they be recognised in this phase of the Centenary events. Not a single Irish person, or political party objected to that.

You are all over the shop here.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The 'Irishness' of some of the RIC/DMP is uncontested, that is why the Expert Group recommended they be recognised in this phase of the Centenary events. Not a single Irish person, or political party objected to that.

You are all over the shop here.

Not true I have been consistent I view RIC man James McDonnell who was killed in Solohedbeg as more 'culturally Irish' than many of those who are protesting against the RIC/DMP commemoration.
Also how the Irish people have oppressed thier own Irishness themselves up to this present day.
The Irish people have lost much of thier Irish culture, through cultural appropriation etc.
I have being very adamant on these points right from when I started posting on this thread.
I view it as hypocrisy.

If anyone is all over the shop you are -

1) you have a very loose definition of 'terrorism'.
So loose in fact you said it does not apply in Irish history!

2) And you have cherry pick when republicans are terrorists or not. Depending on the era it seems.... according to you they were only terrorists after the GFA.

3) But yet you think the 1916 were not terrorists who had no mandate like Saoradh/Real IRA.

BloodyBill

Naggdefy wrote: »

At the end of the day I'm thrilled that Irishmen and Irish women united to stop this commemoration nonsense in such large numbers, voicing their opinion across many platforms.

They weren't fooled by the PC bs, or mention that they were postponing a UI.

A United Ireland at what cost? That we were to change everything about our identity to placate a sullen minority who have never treated an opposing tradition with any respect?

Our Constitution is democratic, no longer Home Rule is Rome rule. Join us as we are, a nation of equals, but don't try and change the fundamentals of our state.

So basically the Irish State stays the same after unity accordingto your welcoming invite. The Unionists can forget about a new constitution, flag,commonwealth, president and monarch as joint heads of State? There'll be no United Ireland if that's the case. I'd say in all seriousness it would be 60% remaining in the UK if Northern Ireland had a vote within 10 years. Half the Catholics would vote remain as is..the likes of McIlroy ect in East Ulster. And I'd say 99 out of every 100 Protestants would vote remain. I'm guessing I'd say I'm fairly on the money

FrancieBrady

BloodyBill wrote: »

So basically the Irish State stays the same after unity accordingto your welcoming invite. The Unionists can forget about a new constitution, flag,commonwealth, president and monarch as joint heads of State? There'll be no United Ireland if that's the case. I'd say in all seriousness it would be 60% remaining in the UK if Northern Ireland had a vote within 10 years. Half the Catholics would vote remain as is..the likes of McIlroy ect in East Ulster. And I'd say 99 out of every 100 Protestants would vote remain. I'm guessing I'd say I'm fairly on the money

Through the whole Brexit chaos, with the Tories pushing the boundaries of democracy in Parliament (Porugation, suspension, throwing out dissent etc) they held one thing as unbreakable - the GFA.

If a majority vote for a UI what makes you think Britain is going to suspend their committments in the GFA to see a UI happen?

Unless Unionism can persuade that a new constitution, flag, anthem etc are good things and required then it doesn't really matter. A UI will happen.

So Unionism will need to engage and persuade to get these things, some of which I am certainly not averse to, some of which I am. Even though I am averse to some things Unionism wants, I a can assure you of this, I will abide by the decision of the majority.

gormdubhgorm

BloodyBill wrote: »

So basically the Irish State stays the same after unity accordingto your welcoming invite. The Unionists can forget about a new constitution, flag,commonwealth, president and monarch as joint heads of State? There'll be no United Ireland if that's the case. I'd say in all seriousness it would be 60% remaining in the UK if Northern Ireland had a vote within 10 years. Half the Catholics would vote remain as is..the likes of McIlroy ect in East Ulster. And I'd say 99 out of every 100 Protestants would vote remain. I'm guessing I'd say I'm fairly on the money

Exactly there is a new generation like Mcllroy who see themselves as Northern Irish first and they waiver between picking - 'British' or 'Irish'.

If there can be no gestures to the Unionists such as the RIC/DMP comm. Then even if there was a UI it would be in name only.

gormdubhgorm

Bishop of hope wrote: »

They all shot themselves in the foot, the recent election showed that.
The people of NI of every community were sick and tired of both of them and their language spat, they wanted their Govt and and services being funded back.
Neither language was important to either community really, as they will still talk their version of English

Yep cynically using the Irish language as a political tool (Michelle O'Neill no Irish)
Language is intended to be spoken it should not need an act.

And the 'cash for ash' crowd Unionists on the other side no better.
Glorified councilors the lot of them

gormdubhgorm

Naggdefy wrote: »

The matches are on tv and higher standard than LoI. We watched Italian football in the 90s. You have players from across the world.

Mr. More Irish than anyone else.

So you speak Irish, follow Dublin GAA and give lectures on how to be Irish? You're a pain in the (rhymes with roll)

Your pretend 'nationalist' mask as slipped - that post reads like backtracking to cover up your guilt.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Exactly there is who New generation like Mcllroy who see themselves as Northern Irish first and they wavier between picking - 'British' or 'Irish'.

If there can be no gestures to the Unionists such as the RIC/DMP comm. Then even if there was a UI it would be in name only.

Sigh:

The RIC/DMP were an inclusive part of this phase of the Centenary events.
If Unionists want the Irish people to formally commemorate groups whose raison d'etre was to brutally put down our freedoms and independence they are sorely mistaken.

The RIC/DMP are commemorated every year without objection. Unionists will be allowed to commemorate their dead as well as long as it isn't triumphant or confrontational, as the state 1916 commemorations were - inclusive, respectful and comprehensive (nobody was whitewashed out)

gormdubhgorm

Naggdefy wrote: »

You think you define Irishness? Because you've the Irish language.

The people said no to the black and tans 100 years ago and today. Call them what you want but to me not wanting to commemorate a foreign oppressor is a badge of nationhood. Every bit as equal as the teanga.

I disagree completely at the moment Ireland has a British colony attitude.
Half anti the former 'oppressors' but not a true country as they have no real language - just pockets here and there.
It is the Irish people culturally oppressing themselves, that is the truth of it.
What other European nations do not properly use it it's own language widespread in the nation?

The DMP/RIC protests smack of look at how Irish we are! It is a false sense of Irishness an Irishness that can only be expressed by denigrating a former enemy.

fundi

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The RIC/DMP are commemorated every year without objection.

Yeah. By singing Wolf Tone songs, by sneeering that they were scum and are sorry 5000 were not killed instead of 500, and by all naming streets and train stations after the IRA heroes.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Your definition of 'culture' is isolationist and confined and anti-modern.
.

That is how many so called nationalists/republicans/Irish people view the Irish language. It is much easier for them to protest against the RIC/DMP comm for a few days though to give some sort of feel of being Irish. Because they have lost what that sense is.

FrancieBrady

fundi wrote: »

Yeah. By singing Wolf Tone songs, by sneeering that they were scum and are sorry 5000 were not killed instead of 500, and by all naming streets and train stations after the IRA heroes.

So the Wolfe Tones song is about the RIC? I thought you guys were adamant the Black and Tans were not the RIC.

Well if they wish to take down the massive statue to Carson who brought the gun back into Irish politics and other symbolism of theirs, then we can indeed look at street names etc.

Personally I see no problem with historical statuery or street names to be honest.
Symbols of British occupation abound in this country still, I cherish our heritage, Irish and British. I am deeply involved in the restoration/conservation of a planter castle at the moment actually.

Naggdefy

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Exactly there is who New generation like Mcllroy who see themselves as Northern Irish first and they wavier between picking - 'British' or 'Irish'.

If there can be no gestures to the Unionists such as the RIC/DMP comm. Then even if there was a UI it would be in name only.

McIlroy is British and will identify as such, and fair play to him, no what arse kissing you and your ilk, the John Bruton's etc, will do.

Naggdefy

Well gormdubh, ever do the aul DNA test, or did you turn up as mongrel with a few sailors entering your port? Great test of ethnicity..

Naggdefy

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Your pretend 'nationalist' mask as slipped - that post reads like backtracking to cover up your guilt.

Guilt. I'm purebred Irish.

Naggdefy

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

That is how many so called nationalists/republicans/Irish people view the Irish language. It is much easier for them to protest against the RIC/DMP comm for a few days though to give some sort of feel of being Irish. Because they have lost what that sense is.

Change that username to Gorm léine! I'd say bar the Irish language you have SFA in your background or heritage that is in any way Irish. Involved in '98, the tithe war, emigrated ancestry due to genocide (famine they called it), Fenian background, active in the WoI.

Naggdefy

BloodyBill wrote: »

So basically the Irish State stays the same after unity accordingto your welcoming invite. The Unionists can forget about a new constitution, flag,commonwealth, president and monarch as joint heads of State? There'll be no United Ireland if that's the case. I'd say in all seriousness it would be 60% remaining in the UK if Northern Ireland had a vote within 10 years. Half the Catholics would vote remain as is..the likes of McIlroy ect in East Ulster. And I'd say 99 out of every 100 Protestants would vote remain. I'm guessing I'd say I'm fairly on the money

The GFA requires a majority to vote for a UI in Northern Ireland. Signed up for, nothing else. No harps on blue flags etc.

Naggdefy

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I disagree completely at the moment Ireland has a British colony attitude.
Half anti the former 'oppressors' but not a true country as they have no real language - just pockets here and there.
It is the Irish people culturally oppressing themselves, that is the truth of it.
What other European nations do not properly use it it's own language widespread in the nation?

The DMP/RIC protests smack of look at how Irish we are! It is a false sense of Irishness an Irishness that can only be expressed by denigrating a former enemy.

You certainly have a colonial attitude, kiss the backside of your oppressor.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

That is how many so called nationalists/republicans/Irish people view the Irish language. It is much easier for them to protest against the RIC/DMP comm for a few days though to give some sort of feel of being Irish. Because they have lost what that sense is.

Which nationalists/republicans/Irish people view the Irish language as confined and anti-modern?

KWAG2019

BloodyBill wrote: »

So basically the Irish State stays the same after unity accordingto your welcoming invite. The Unionists can forget about a new constitution, flag,commonwealth, president and monarch as joint heads of State? There'll be no United Ireland if that's the case. I'd say in all seriousness it would be 60% remaining in the UK if Northern Ireland had a vote within 10 years. Half the Catholics would vote remain as is..the likes of McIlroy ect in East Ulster. And I'd say 99 out of every 100 Protestants would vote remain. I'm guessing I'd say I'm fairly on the money

I’d reckon you’re not far out if that’s the list. I could live with new const depending on no regression to the religiously inspired stuff, I could live with a new flag depending. I could live with the commonwealth. I will never accept a monarch as head of state.

The real problem is this entirely misjudged attempt to reconcile pasts that are unreconciliable. It doesn’t need to be done.

FrancieBrady

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I’d reckon you’re not far out if that’s the list. I could live with new const depending on no regression to the religiously inspired stuff, I could live with a new flag depending. I could live with the commonwealth. I will never accept a monarch as head of state.

The real problem is this entirely misjudged attempt to reconcile pasts that are unreconciliable. It doesn’t need to be done.

Indeed. On a project I worked on I asked a funder from the Peace and Reconciliation fund the simple question: How do you reconcile things that were never 'conciled' in the first place. He had no answer.

We need to begin anew with respect for each other.

KWAG2019

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Indeed. On a project I worked on I asked a funder from the Peace and Reconciliation fund the simple question: How do you reconcile things that were never 'conciled' in the first place. He had no answer.

We need to begin anew with respect for each other.

I’m not religious in any sense but there is great wisdom in leaving the dead to bury the dead.

We should honour those who fought for our freedom with out having to explain to condescending twits in the IT that we can do that without turning the country into a necrocracy.

Naggdefy

I'm off to an Oliver Cromwell commemoration in Drogheda. He did a lot to prevent over population in Ireland. A man before his time in dealing with climate change. His depopulation programme lowered carbon emissions. Getting picked up by Charlie Flanagan in 5 min.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Sigh:

The RIC/DMP were an inclusive part of this phase of the Centenary events.
If Unionists want the Irish people to formally commemorate groups whose raison d'etre was to brutally put down our freedoms and independence they are sorely mistaken.

The RIC/DMP are commemorated every year without objection. Unionists will be allowed to commemorate their dead as well as long as it isn't triumphant or confrontational, as the state 1916 commemorations were - inclusive, respectful and comprehensive (nobody was whitewashed out)

Not true at all that was the myth created this was not true I did not see much of a celebration of unionist traditions in the 1916 commemorations. The only difference was lip service was paid to them in order to make it seem inclusive - unlike the comm. 50 years previously in 1966.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/pride-in-inclusive-1916-commemoration-rings-hollow-1.2856808

The very fact there is a panic over the proposed comm for the RIC/DMP shows how far Ireland has yet to go.
How many people openly claim to have relatives who were members of the RIC/DMP in the ROI?
Very few it has being stigmatised.
Yet with all the people who are in a rush to claim they had relations in the GPO 1916 it would be a very crowded place.
Yet there were more Irishmen in the RIC/DMP than the whole of the 1916 rising put together.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Which nationalists/republicans/Irish people view the Irish language as confined and anti-modern?

Plenty there is a stigma of the Irish language being that of the poor and English the language of the educated and rich.
Certain generations in Ireland still think like that.

Edgware

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Not true at all that was the myth created this was not true I did not see much of a celebration of unionist traditions in the 1916 commemorations. The only difference was lip service was paid to them in order to make it seem inclusive - unlike the comm. 50 years previously in 1966.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/pride-in-inclusive-1916-commemoration-rings-hollow-1.2856808

The very fact there is a panic over the proposed comm for the RIC/DMP shows how far Ireland has yet to go.
How many people openly claim to have relatives who were members of the RIC/DMP in the ROI?
Very few it has being stigmatised.
Yet with all the people who are in a rush to claim they had relations in the GPO 1916 it would be a very crowded place.
Yet there were more Irishmen in the RIC/DMP than the whole of the 1916 rising put together.

And several of the people who fought in Easter Week and the War of Independence had a father in the RIC or DMP.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Not true at all that was the myth created this was not true I did not see much of a celebration of unionist traditions in the 1916 commemorations. The only difference was lip service was paid to them in order to make it seem inclusive - unlike the comm. 50 years previously in 1966.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/pride-in-inclusive-1916-commemoration-rings-hollow-1.2856808

The very fact there is a panic over the proposed comm for the RIC/DMP shows how far Ireland has yet to go.
How many people openly claim to have relatives who were members of the RIC/DMP in the ROI?
Very few it has being stigmatised.
Yet with all the people who are in a rush to claim they had relations in the GPO 1916 it would be a very crowded place.
Yet there were more Irishmen in the RIC/DMP than the whole of the 1916 rising put together.

Who was 'whitewashed out of the 1916 commemorations in 2016?

Unionists by and large refused to engage in 1916 commemorations. Locally here, only a few participated, but their views were fully taken on board and represented and remembered. I know because I worked with them.
Arlene Foster chose to snub her invite to the state commemorations. Her is what she said,

Arlene Foster wrote:

When you look at the history of commemorations of Easter 1916 it is only relatively recently that the government of the Republic of Ireland have commemorated that occasion because actually it gave succour to violent republicanism here in Northern Ireland over many years.

"It would be wrong for me as the leader of Northern Ireland to give any succour to those sorts of people."

Was she right or wrong in that decision, in your opinion?

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Plenty there is a stigma of the Irish language being that of the poor and English the language of the educated and rich.
Certain generations in Ireland still think like that.

That was the very policy of the British as I showed by links earlier in the thread.

gormdubhgorm

Naggdefy wrote: »

Change that username to Gorm léine! I'd say bar the Irish language you have SFA in your background or heritage that is in any way Irish. Involved in '98, the tithe war, emigrated ancestry due to genocide (famine they called it), Fenian background, active in the WoI.

Sorry to disappoint you but that is not true.
But you see unlike you I do not need to define myself by a narrow viewpoint of history which others were involved in the past. I bet you have many ancestors who were in the RIC if you do enough digging. But you do not seem to be the type to be as quick to mention those?
I look at it all of history collectively and fairly no matter which side xyz fought on.

Also as for Irishness I show my nationality and love of Irish culture by actually living it, through the Irish language. To learn a turn of phrase and way of thinking that you would never get in English. I actually live my Irishness you just pine for a day where you could look macho in expressing Irishness from the safe distance of history.

In contrast you just look for your Irishness in the history books - written by those who glorified and whitewashed the history over decades.
All you have is the narrow nationalist viewpoint of what a republican is so you can try and live viciously from them.
Which in turn leads to a certain discomfort when you have to define republican in the following time periods 1798, 1916, 1921, 1930's. 1950's 1972, 1998, 2019 ?

From the pikes in 1798 to Lyra McKee it is all republican - they all justified thier actions and saw themselves as freedom fighters. You have the difficult decision of defining which were terrorists or heroes - I do not.
I am under no illusions of the long line of republicanism and how its fundamental aims have not changed - the only thing that has changed is the names.

The irony of these DMP/RIC 'protests' do not escape me that is for sure.


Also I was there in 98 - at leinster football QF Dublin v Kildare