RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

Naggdefy

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Sorry to disappoint you but that is not true.
But you see unlike you I do not need to define myself by a narrow viewpoint of history which others were involved in the past. I bet you have many ancestors who were in the RIC if you do enough digging. But you do not seem to be the type to be as quick to mention those?
I look at it all of history collectively and fairly no matter which side xyz fought on.

Also as for Irishness I show my nationality and love of Irish culture by actually living it, through the Irish language. To learn a turn of phrase and way of thinking that you would never get in English. I actually live my Irishness you just pine for a day where you could look macho in expressing Irishness from the safe distance of history.

In contrast you just look for your Irishness in the history books - written by those who glorified and whitewashed the history over decades.
All you have is the narrow nationalist viewpoint of what a republican is so you can try and live viciously from them.
Which in turn leads to a certain discomfort when you have to define republican in the following time periods 1798, 1916, 1921, 1930's. 1950's 1972, 1998, 2019 ?

From the pikes in 1798 to Lyra McKee it is all republican - they all justified thier actions and saw themselves as freedom fighters. You have the difficult decision of defining which were terrorists or heroes - I do not.
I am under no illusions of the long line of republicanism and how its fundamental aims have not changed - the only thing that has changed is the names.

The irony of these DMP/RIC 'protests' do not escape me that is for sure.


Also I was there in 98 - at leinster football QF Dublin v Kildare

I've researched my genealogy thoroughly and no relative in the RIC.

I'll tell you what I have though. A 22 year old granduncle beaten to death by RIC and Tans. His decomposing body was dumped on our home farm.

Do you think I'm going to commemorate these people?

P.s. And you have the cheek to call people narrow minded with your Irish language makes you Irish agenda.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Sorry to disappoint you but that is not true.
But you see unlike you I do not need to define myself by a narrow viewpoint of history which others were involved in the past.

So you can 'self define' but nobody else can? Any dictator jobs going...I think we have a candidate. :rolleyes:

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That was the very policy of the British as I showed by links earlier in the thread.

Yeah exactly you did but I said what is the excuse now? - the Irish people and most of these RIC/DMP protesters are oppressing themselves by continuing the same policy. While at the same time being more than willing to appropriate British contemporary culture.

People seem to have a handy line it is all the Brits fault - as an excuse for the nations own failings. There is only so long you can spin that tune before it sounds silly.

Naggdefy

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Also I was there in 98 - at leinster football QF Dublin v Kildare

That means nothing to me, I'm from neither county.

How do you rid your country of a foreign alien force Irish culture man? Do a little jig before them.

Politics was tried, didn't work.

Just because you play Trad music, go to ceilis and speak Irish doesn't make you more Irish. I do all three by the way.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So you can 'self define' but nobody else can? Any dictator jobs going...I think we have a candidate. :rolleyes:

The difference is living in the present or living in the past.
It is easier for some people to define themselves from others actions in the past -gloried whitewashed martyrs

Instead of putting the effort in the present - example Irish language.

Because creating glorified whitewashed martyrs from the past (no exceptions) means the other side has to be painted as the evil empire (no exceptions)
A myopic view of history only atrocities of one side are focused on.

Which means there can be no proper analysis of history the glasses always remain tinted. Those distant RIC/DMP ancestors of the people of the ROI today are long forgotten, and replaced instead by republican ancestors to talk up.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Yeah exactly you did but I said what is the excuse now? - the Irish people and most of these RIC/DMP protesters are oppressing themselves by continuing the same policy. While at the same time being more than willing to appropriate British contemporary culture.

People seem to have a handy line it is all the Brits fault - as an excuse for the nations own failings. There is only so long you can spin that tune before it sounds silly.

Nobody said it was all the British fault. But a large part of the blame would lie with a colonial policy to wipe out the language to control the people, would you not think?

We definitely struggle with it since the foundation of the state. But there has been a massive resurgence in Gael Scoil and the next few generations is going to see the benefit of that.
The importance of the language can be seen if you look uncynically at efforts to preserve and encourage it. Seems to me if anyone tries that they are either accused of weaponising it or trying to be elitist or waste educational resources.

Meanwhile would you for once answer a question from others?

Do you think all the Irish works of literature conceived in and written in English are NOT a part of the Irish cultural canon?

Naggdefy

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Also as for Irishness I show my nationality and love of Irish culture by actually living it, through the Irish language. To learn a turn of phrase and way of thinking that you would never get in English. I actually live my Irishness you just pine for a day where you could look macho in expressing Irishness from the safe distance of history.

In contrast you just look for your Irishness in the history books - written by those who glorified and whitewashed the history over decades.
All you have is the narrow nationalist viewpoint of what a republican is so you can try and live viciously from them.
Which in turn leads to a certain discomfort when you have to define republican in the following time periods 1798, 1916, 1921, 1930's. 1950's 1972, 1998, 2019

You know nothing about me. Your turn of phrase!! Get over yourself!

As I asked you before you know nothing of your DNA it seems. Just one of these 'manufactured' Irish men turning their name as gaeilge and playing for the likes of Cuala. Wannabe all over you.

By the way I've spoken on TG4 history programmes as gaeilge so don't think I don't live in the present. Or sit on an armchair.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

The difference is living in the present or living in the past.
It is easier for some people to define themselves from others actions in the past -gloried whitewashed martyrs

Instead of putting the effort in the present - example Irish language.

Because creating glorified whitewashed martyrs from the past (no exceptions) means the other side has to be painted as the evil empire (no exceptions)
A myopic view of history only atrocities of one side are focused on.

Which means there can be no proper analysis of history the glasses always remain tinted. Those distant RIC/DMP ancestors of the people of the ROI today are long forgotten, and replaced instead by republican ancestors to talk up.

Well you have to at some point show us what has been 'whitewashed'?

jmcc

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

No I have already explained why they were fundemently different in character both in uniform mindset and where they were recruited from. Even in colloquial name.
I have said this numerous times at this stage.

The Black and Tans were members of the RIC.In celebrating and commemorating the RIC, you are also celebrating and commemorating the Black and Tans.

I am starting to get the impression you only read the posts you want and ignore the others you also repeatedly refuse to answer any of my questions.

It would be easy to quote the cliche about a fool asking more questions than a wise man can answer but I have answered your questions. The problem is that the answers conflict with your beliefs.

For instance you did not give your views on the pro treaty forces the anti treaty forces in the civil war.

Simply this: it should not have happened.

Also you did not give your views on the provos in recent history because if you follow strict logic you should be supporting republican SF as the current DE are traitors etc

Why? And are you a UVF/BA supporter?

You would not be using the oppressors toungue if you had a true hatred of the former colonial oppressors.

Who says I hate anybody?

To call you a barstool republican would be an insult to the stool!

So after your pseudo-historical wibbling has been shown to be rubbish, you resort to insults?

Also I notice you refer to Charlie Flanagan in the exact same way as the poster maireholmfan does which leads to the impression that you are the same poster or in the very least in cahoots.

Calling him Charlie Tan'agan? You aren't very good at this whole connecting the dots thing. Marieholmfan may be highly insulted at your insinuation that we are the same poster or in cahoots. I just find it funny like most of your Tintin O'Toole/Owen Harris.Ruth Dudley Edwards-like attempts at rewriting Irish history.

Regards...jmcc

James Brown

intellectual dosser wrote: »

I'm not the one trying to make the point.

I've no idea what you'd liken an Irish commemoration of the RIC to, but its not a French (or any) commemoration of the SS.

The RUC 'proper' assisted the Black and Tans on burning and shooting up Balbriggan. Sorry for anyone whose granda or great granda was in it but no state commemorating thanks.

gormdubhgorm

Naggdefy wrote: »

That means nothing to me, I'm from neither county.

How do you rid your country of a foreign alien force Irish culture man? Do a little jig before them.

Politics was tried, didn't work.

Just because you play Trad music, go to ceilis and speak Irish doesn't make you more Irish. I do all three by the way.

Eh Good Friday Agreement etc etc
Martin and Ian the chuckle brothers
Gerry in the Dail

If you involved northern protestants/unionists in the Irish language and took the stigma away that would be a step towards getting to know the culture.
Don't mind Arelene Foster and her messing.

See a talk from East Belfast about the secret link between Protestantism and Irish

Also I was amused by the clip below.

@5:40 apparently the presenter below did not sound southern he was way to polite for a southerner!

A small gesture of comm. for the RIC/DMP would be nice gesture to those of a different political persuasion and those who have ancestors from the RIC/DMP in the ROI. It will start to change mindsets to take away political agenda.

jmcc

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

that was his desecendants name yes also a fergal name passes on jmcc was his middle name.

You are not exactly the Kevin Myers level of revisionist, are you? He was talking about his ancestor not his descendants. Keane's descendants would be his children.

Regards...jmcc

Naggdefy

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Eh Good Friday Agreement etc etc
Martin and Ian the chuckle brothers
Gerry in the Dail

If you involved northern protestants/unionists in the Irish language and took the stigma away that would be a step towards getting to know the culture.
Don't mind Arelene Foster and her messing.

See a talk from East Belfast about the secret link between Protestantism and Irish

Also I was amused by the clip below.

@5:40 apparently the presenter below did not sound southern he was way to polite for a southerner!

A small gesture of comm. for the RIC/DMP would be nice gesture to those of a different political persuasion and those who have ancestors from the RIC/DMP in the ROI. It will start to change mindsets.

Are you a bit slow?? We're talking about Ireland 1920. Does it have to be spealt out the amount of times Ireland was denied Home Rule by treachery from 1886 to 1918?? Hence the War of Independence. We're not talking about Northen Ireland 1969- the present.

BLACK and TANS/RIC, 1919-1921 conflict? Amadán. You're not all there boss.

gormdubhgorm

jmcc wrote: »

You are not exactly the Kevin Myers level of revisionist, are you? He was talking about his ancestor not his descendants. Keane's descendants would be his children.

Regards...jmcc

I realise that. Thanks for correction the typo and pointing it out not once but twice.

Regards still waiting for jmcc to answer any questions I asked him - yet he is very precise on the typos (strange that)

gormdubhgorm

Naggdefy wrote: »

Are you a bit slow?? We're talking about Ireland 1920. Does it have to be spealt out the amount of times Ireland was denied Home Rule by treachery from 1886 to 1918?? hence the War of Independence. We're not talking about Northen Ireland 1969- the present.

BLACK and TANS/RIC, 1919-1921 conflict? Amadán.

Again the RIC was not just the'black and tans' I already covered this numerous times -

It was the RIC in all but name change in uniforms etc and recruited from Britain.

When I think of the RIC unlike you I do not just think of the black and tans - burning Cork and Balbriggan etc

I think of the likes of James McDonnell (Mayoman RIC man Irish speaker) who was shot in solohedbeg. Left a large orphan family as he was a widower.

When I think of the RIC I also think of FP Crozier -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Percy_Crozier

Who was an honorable commander and soldier who later became a pacifist, and critic of the British administration in his writings.

The problem is you have a narrow view of history I have broader view which is not bigoted based on political views.

jmcc

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Also as for Irishness I show my nationality and love of Irish culture by actually living it, through the Irish language.

Ian Paisley senior described himself as a proud Irishman. So do you not consider him to be Irish? What in, in your view, makes someone "more" Irish?

Regards...jmcc

Naggdefy

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Again the RIC was not just the'black and tans' I already covered this numerous times -

It was the RIC in all but name change in uniforms etc and recruited from Britain.

When I think of the RIC unlike you I do not just think of the black and tans - burning Cork and Balbriggan etc

I think of the likes of James McDonnell (Mayoman RIC man Irish speaker) who was shot in solohedbeg. Left a large orphan family as he was a widower.

When I think of the RIC I also think of FP Crozier -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Percy_Crozier

Who was an honorable commander and soldier who later became a pacifist, and critic of the British administration in his writings.

The problem is you have a narrow view of history I have broader view which is not bigoted based on political views.

You haven't a clue. You think the Irish language will unite Unionist and us. You're a fool of John Bruton proportions. You think you're so enlightened, gestures, niceties, you're not in the real world. No unionist would respect such crap. They actually prefer someone who is honest about their background.

You show a complete naievety about how the RIC was supplemented and positions filled by Tans. My granduncle was killed by them, i've skin in the game. I'm NOT commemorating them.

gormdubhgorm

jmcc wrote: »

Ian Paisley senior described himself as a proud Irishman. So do you not consider him to be Irish? What in, in your view, makes someone "more" Irish?

Regards...jmcc

Read many my posts on the previous pages on this issue - where I view the DMP/RIC protesters as hypocrites - it is covered there

But I always have the decency to answer your questions you -

on the other hand you do not answer mine so there is no point with further engagement with you on this thread.
If it is only going to be a one sided interrogation it is not really a debate is it?
Which goes against the nature of boards.ie

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

But I always have the decency to answer your questions you -

*cough

Not the first time I have had to give a polite wee cough.

Do you think all the Irish works of literature conceived in and written in English are NOT a part of the Irish cultural canon?

tayto lover

It’s cancelled lads forget it.

Junkyard Tom

I have to say it gives me great pleasure to see the revisionist life's work of the likes of Kevin Myers and Ruth Dudley Edwards, to rehabilitate the British state in the Irish psyche, crumble into dust and get blown away by a gentle breeze.

jmcc

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Read many my posts on the previous pages on this issue - where I view the DMP/RIC protesters as hypocrites - it is covered there

So these are your views and are, as been shown, unsupported by historical facts and reality?

But I always have the decency to answer your questions

But not the one about what makes somebody "more" Irish.

Regards...jmcc

gormdubhgorm

Naggdefy wrote: »

You haven't a clue. You think the Irish language will unite Unionist and us. You're a fool of John Bruton proportions. You think you're so enlightened, gestures, niceties, you're not in the real world. No unionist would respect such crap. They actually prefer someone who is honest about their background.

You show a complete naievety about how the RIC was supplemented and positions filled by Tans. My granduncle was killed by them, i've skin in the game. I'm NOT commemorating them.

In 1833 the Presbyterians in Uslter in thier assembly termed the Irish language as 'our sweet mother tongue.'
So it can unite they lost it because English was viewed as the language of modernity.

It was not your skin it was your grand uncles - bout time you moved on from that bitterness even Collin Parry met Martin Mc and became a peace advocate.

It is these 'gestures and niceties' as you put it that unite a people.
If Article 2 and 3 was not removed from the Irish constitution there would never have been a GFA.

Thankfully there are many who are more broad minded and who's who identity is not based on events of the past.

I hope Flanagan gets the RIC/DMP just rebrand it for the narrowminded bigots (at a later date) and it will be grand.

The queen managed to be at the garden of REMEMBRANCE laying a wreath.
Yet you want no commemoration/remembrance as your family history and family has indoctrinated you.
You have to take the blinkers off sometime.

There is no point in further engagement with you I have made my points.
I suggest you think about thinks rationally and be less emotive about the issue.

Plumbthedepths

When I think of the RIC I think of the then young Loughnane brothers dragged behind a RIC truck mutalated hand grenades placed in their mouths bodies disposed of in a lake. I think of Eileen Quinn 24 years old 7 months pregnant murdered by the RIC in front of her 3 children. I think of the 14 people murdered by the Crown forces in Croagh park , where the RIC were the first to fire into the crowd without orders to do so.
There is an service held every August in the Church of St Paul to comemorate the RIC/DMP/Black and Tans. That is more than enough, the state is not obligated to comemorate an organisation that murdered and brutalised the civilian population .
I learnt a new term last night, 'rodeo clowns'. Very apt description for a few posters here.
Anyway what FG wanted ain't happening anytime soon and maybe next time they will consult instead of a solo run.

J Mysterio

https://twitter.com/davidcullinane/status/1216016483848982529

gormdubhgorm

jmcc wrote: »

So these are your views and are, as been shown, unsupported by historical facts and reality?

But not the one about what makes somebody "more" Irish.

Regards...jmcc

I referred you to my previous comments - it appears that you do not know how to go back a couple of pages - strange that...

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

In 1833 the Presbyterians in Uslter in thier assembly termed the Irish language as 'our sweet mother tongue.'
So it can unite they lost it because English was viewed as the language of modernity.

It was not your skin it was your grand uncles - bout time you moved on from that bitterness even Collin Parry met Martin Mc and became a peace advocate.

It is these 'gestures and niceties' as you put it that unite a people.
If Article 2 and 3 was not removed from the Irish constitution there would never have been a GFA.

Thankfully there are many who are more broad minded and who's who identity is not based on events of the past.

I hope Flanagan gets the RIC/DMP just rebrand it for the narrowminded bigots (at a later date) and it will be grand.

The queen managed to be at the garden of REMEMBRANCE laying a wreath.
Yet you want no commemoration/remembrance as your family history and family has indoctrinated you.
You have to take the blinkers off sometime.

There is no point in further engagement with you I have made my points.
I suggest you think about thinks rationally and be less emotive about the issue.

The danger here is that Flanagan will be too much of a coward to touch it again and do it as the Expert Group suggested. the planned appropriate remembrance might not happen at all which would be sad.

gormdubhgorm

Edgware wrote: »

And several of the people who fought in Easter Week and the War of Independence had a father in the RIC or DMP.

Exactly, and can any one rattle them off without looking them up?
Yet we have been indoctrinated so much, that most people can rattle of the names of the signatories of the proclamation off the top of thier head.

FrancieBrady

My father was a pig in the Boer War.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The danger here is that Flanagan will be too much of a coward to touch it again and do it as the Expert Group suggested. the planned 'appropriate' remembrance might not happen at all which would be sad.

What is 'appropriate' though that could just be code for half assed lip service.
Do it right is my view warts and all good and bad of it.

We have listened to so much mythologising of the Rising through the WOI it would be nice to see some balance brought into the discussion.

If people don't like it they don't have to go.