RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

jmcc

Zebra3 wrote: »

If today's Mail front page is true, a lot of TDs are gonna lose their seats over it.

Josepha Madigan seems to be very angry about it on Twitter.

Regards...jmcc

McMurphy

jmcc wrote: »

Josepha Madigan seems to be very angry about it on Twitter.

Regards...jmcc

I am specifically hopeful Mother Madigan will lose her seat.

That shake down of a Dublin business by herself and Bailey should have had her removed from cabinet anyway.

Instead leo gave us a report he said exonerated her, but no one was allowed to see said report.

Good Few years in opposition will soften their coughs.

Millionaire only not

Only for Johnson calling an election and the dup getting a kick up in the hole , Arlene foster would but still talking her ****.
Fine Gael will get another kick up in the hole from there arrogant carry on lately!
Varadkar will be gone in under 12 months is my prediction! Coveney will be new leader

McMurphy

Eoghan Harris is losing his shlt in the Indo about Charlie's stunt too (if Eoghan or Ruth Dudley Edwards aren't happy, it's usually a good thing)

Saying Charlie made the right decision to honour the RIC, but also the right decision to cancel it, and not because of the objection by a great number of people, rather because it prevents a protest taking place at the commemoration. Honestly.

Gave a special mention to Humphreys and Madigan for supporting it.

Everything's going Pete Tong for the blueshirts.

Zebra3

Alan Farrell caught up in a scandal in the Examiner.

Asked why he was still claiming expenses for roaming charges he claimed it's because he phones the US and Georgia.

It must be tough trying to pull so many scams that you forget how it all works.

Edgware

Phoebas wrote: »

That whole Moore St. thing was a disgrace.
We were supposed to have a Museum in a couple of houses in the terrace back in 2016 until a bunch of 'concerned citizens' decided to occupy the site demanding that every place a rebel moved through needed to be preserved forever (despite the same buildings having long since fallen into disrepair and being totally refurbished in the interim).
Four years later, those committed protesters have long since gone and we're left with nothing but the bill.

An imaginative architect could have designed a great memorial museum as well as commercial/retail outlets on what is a very big site

FrancieBrady

Zebra3 wrote: »

If today's Mail front page is true, a lot of TDs are gonna lose their seats over it.

RTE don't seem to have been scared off by the threat to sue by Madigan on Twitter. They are going to discuss it on Brendan O'Connor.

FG seem to be completely inept at ring fencing these controversies. This one will go on and on like Bailey etc

Edgware

Zebra3 wrote: »

If today's Mail front page is true, a lot of TDs are gonna lose their seats over it.

Says The man from the Daily Mail.

Why is that rag so popular in Ireland?

FrancieBrady

Yet again an RTE programme, while pleading for plurality and making the case for Unionism (and in particular Arlene Foster and her personal experience, as if it was a unique one) manages not to mention her very public, bitter and some would say 'rabble rousing', snub of her invite to our 1916 commemorations. Michael D Higgins answered her criticisms of that event - 1916, by saying this:

“while the long shadow cast by what has been called the Troubles in Northern Ireland has led to a scrutiny of the Irish republican tradition of physical violence, a similar review of supremacist and militarist imperialism remains to be fully achieved”.

Seems there are still some in RTE keen to keep that light from shining evenly.

Sir Oxman

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yet again an RTE programme, while pleading for plurality and making the case for Unionism (and in particular Arlene Foster and her personal experience, as if it was a unique one) manages not to mention her very public, bitter and some would say 'rabble rousing', snub of her invite to our 1916 commemorations. Michael D Higgins answered her criticisms of that event - 1916, by saying this:


Seems there are still some in RTE keen to keep that light from shining evenly.

RTE mustn't have persuaded an FGer to come on and present the contrary view.
I wonder why.

FrancieBrady

Sir Oxman wrote: »

RTE mustn't have persuaded an FGer to come on and present the contrary view.
I wonder why.

Well given that O'Connor made an abject plea for clemency for Flanagan too, without again managing to mention how Flanagan sought to lie about the Expert Group nor mentioned how he attacked the people who had objected as 'sinister' and 'immature', Fine Gael should have known the chances were they would have ad any easy ride.

Odhinn

Whats this about Tans names being put up in the garden of remembrance?

Zebra3

Odhinn wrote: »

Whats this about Tans names being put up in the garden of remembrance?

https://twitter.com/DarranMarshall/status/1216143057395113986

Plumbthedepths

Gene wrote a nice piece, although the mention of Duffy may cause some discomfort for the FG fans.

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/gene-kerrigan-lets-remember-the-past-not-whitewash-it-38854130.html

Sir Oxman

Not approved by cabinet, says LV...

We must consult more...

---

> That horse has long bolted, dear leader.

FrancieBrady

The government has 'collective responsibility' but it was the DOJ's fault.
Cheers Boss

Yours
Charlie

gormdubhgorm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Gene wrote a nice piece, although the mention of Duffy may cause some discomfort for the FG fans.

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/gene-kerrigan-lets-remember-the-past-not-whitewash-it-38854130.html

Kerrigan clearly does not know his history though it is ironic the term whitewashed is used in the article.
When the whole article is playing to the same old historical narrative - example the cartoon at the top of the page however amusing shows a very biased view of the whole thing

No mention of the likes of RIC man James McDonnell - Irish man Mayo born and bred and Irish speaker, shot in 1919 Solohedbeg - the odds against were 8-to 2 by the way. Yet it is glorified as the start of the WOI.

https://www.independent.ie/incoming/there-was-never-any-intention-to-kill-them-thousands-gather-in-soloheadbeg-to-commemorate-centenary-of-ambush-that-sparked-war-of-independence-37729724.html

In fact the truth was the Breen and Robinson hated each other and both vied for the limelight years later

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/soloheadbeg-wicked-beginning-of-the-war-of-independence-1.3742421

No mention of FP Crozier commander of the auxies RIC who was horrified at the acts of the black and tans, He also was disgusted at the behaviour of his own 'men' (the wild young cadets) who went against orders in Croke Park Nov 1920.
Later to become a pacifist and strong critic of the British.

https://www.historyireland.com/book-reviews/broken-sword-tumultuous-life-general-frank-crozier-1879-1937

He tried to court martial and reprimand men on numerous occasions but was over rulled by British admin. He became disillusioned with it all as a result.

No mention of how Eammon Ceannt's father was a nationalist and member of the RIC

https://irishconstabulary.com/james-kent-father-of-eamonn-ceannt-t1667.html


No mention or joke about the viciousness of any of the Republican side the Dunmanway Killings and the Killings near Newry in the 20's.

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/darkest-nights-mystery-of-the-dunmanway-massacre-30316882.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/armagh-1921-ira-man-tormented-by-woman-s-killing-in-attack-on-protestant-village-1.4037817?

It the article is ironic in that it claims that FG are doing a whitewashing of history but what they are trying to do is open up eyes broaden a view on history. Kerrigan seems to have been well indoctrinated by a narrow viewpoint of history.

Sure lets stay blinkered - lets pretend that the narrative of history was simple.

Volunteers IRA - glorious honouable freedom fighters all

RIC/DMP - vicious black and tans all!!!

Anyone else who tries to point out nuance and go against the narrative = apologist or West Brit.

Plus lets ignore all versions of the IRA after independence they are not the same IRA. So lets call them volunteers, old ira, provos, real ira etc etc etc.
It makes it much more comfortable for those in the ROI so they can praise republicanism from the very vey safe distance of history.
While they can call the rest of the IRA terrorists after the 1916/Civil War/WOI no contraction there at all.

Yep great country we live in - no messed up mindsets or blinkered narratives, and sudden lines in the sand when it suits at all! :rolleyes:

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Kerrigan clearly does not know his history though it is ironic the term whitewashed is used in the article.
When the whole article is playing to the same old historical narrative - example the cartoon at the top of the page however amusing shows a very biased view of the whole thing

No mention of the likes of RIC man James McDonnell - Irish man Mayo born and bred and Irish speaker, shot in 1919 Solohedbeg - the odds against were 8-to 2 by the way. Yet it is glorified as the start of the WOI.

https://www.independent.ie/incoming/there-was-never-any-intention-to-kill-them-thousands-gather-in-soloheadbeg-to-commemorate-centenary-of-ambush-that-sparked-war-of-independence-37729724.html

In fact the truth was the Breen and Robinson hated each other and both vied for the limelight years later

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/soloheadbeg-wicked-beginning-of-the-war-of-independence-1.3742421

No mention of FP Crozier commander of the auxies RIC who was horrified at the acts of the black and tans, He also was disgusted at the behaviour of his own 'men' (the wild young cadets) who went against orders in Croke Park Nov 1920.
Later to become a pacifist and strong critic of the British.

https://www.historyireland.com/book-reviews/broken-sword-tumultuous-life-general-frank-crozier-1879-1937

He tried to court martial and reprimand men on numerous occasions but was over rulled by British admin. He became disillusioned with it all as a result.

No mention of how Eammon Ceannt's father was a nationalist and member of the RIC

https://irishconstabulary.com/james-kent-father-of-eamonn-ceannt-t1667.html


No mention or joke about the viciousness of any of the Republican side the Dunmanway Killings and the Killings near Newry in the 20's.

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/darkest-nights-mystery-of-the-dunmanway-massacre-30316882.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/armagh-1921-ira-man-tormented-by-woman-s-killing-in-attack-on-protestant-village-1.4037817?

It the article is ironic in that it claims that FG are doing a whitewashing of history but what they are trying to do is open up eyes broaden a view on history. Kerrigan seems to have been well indoctrinated by a narrow viewpoint of history.

Sure lets stay blinkered - lets pretend that the narrative of history was simple.

Volunteers IRA - glorious honouable freedom fighters

RIC/DMP - vicious black and tans all!!!

Anyone else who tries to point out nuance and go against the narrative = apologist or West Brit.

Plus lets ignore all versions of the IRA after independance they are not the same IRA. So lets call them volunteers provos, real ira etc etc etc.
It makes it much more comfortable for those in the ROI so they can praise republicanism from the very safe distance of history.
While they can call the rest of the IRA terrorists after the WOI

Yep great country we live in - no messed up mindsets or blinkered narratives and lines in the sand when it suits at all! :rolleyes:

And Charlie Flanagan asks that there be no mention of the brutality of the RIC and the Black and Tans and the DMP and the AUX's.

I'm a Republican, most people in this state are by definition.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And Charlie Flanagan asks that there be no mention of the brutality of the RIC and the Black and Tans and the DMP and the AUX's.

I'm a Republican, most people in this state are by definition.

No they are not because Saoradh the Real IRA believe they are the keepers of the flame now - the unfinished revolution they have no mandate or support. But Saoradh view themslelves like the men of 1916 who had no support either.

What Irish people are is a nation of hypocrites, and try our best to mould history so it sits easily in our nationalist mindset.

I would prefer to see a list of all all attrocities by both sides listed get it all out there warts and all. And there should be special memorials for each of those attroicites side by side in the same place.

In contrast those who tried to bring order to the island and control the 'head the balls' on both sides should also be celebrated side by side - Griffith and Crozier for example. Two fine honourable men by all accounts

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

No they are not because Saoradh the Real IRA believe they are the keepers of the flame now - the unfinished revolutiont hey have no mandate or support but Saoradh view themslelves like the men of 1916 who had no support either.

You are free to ignore their claims to be republicans or the keepers of the 'flame' you know.
The British never had a 'mandate' to be here either.

We are a nation of hypocrities and try our best to mold history so it sits palatbaly in our mindset.

I would prefer to see a list of all all attrocities by both sides listed get it all out there warts and all. And there should be special memorials for each of those attroicites side by side in the same place.

The history is there for all to see. When Charlie asked us to ignore a part of it, he got an emphatic answer.

In contrast those who tried to bring order to the island and control the head the balls on both sides should also be celebrated side by side - Griffith and Crozier for example. Two fine honourable men by all accounts

As said before, nobody objects to the commemoration of individuals.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

As said before, nobody objects to the commemoration of individuals.

I don't get this logic at all as this individuals were part of a group.
So if it was the JP Crozier commemoration you would have no problem with it.

But even if it was called Royal Irish Constabulary (ADRIC) commemoration you would be up in arms.
That makes no sense to me at all
I know you will try and make a comparision between the Nazis and Oskar Schindler v the Jews.

But this commemoration was for the RIC and the DMP the whole RIC in general which can encompass way back well over 150 years. In which many Irish people served.

Odhinn

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I don't get this logic at all as this individuals were part of a group.
So if it was the JP Crozier commemoration you would have no problem with it.

But even if it was called Royal Irish Constabulary (ADRIC) commemoration you would be up in arms.
That makes no sense to me at all
I know you will try and make a comparision between the Nazis and Oskar Schindler v the Jews.

But this commemoration was for the RIC and the DMP the whole RIC in general which can encompass way back well over 150 years. In which many Irish people served.

.....by oppressing their own for a few scraps from the masters table. A widespread phenomena all over the empire.

fundi

Odhinn wrote: »

.....by oppressing their own for a few scraps from the masters table. A widespread phenomena all over the empire.

Republicans murdered far more people - including Irish people - than even the black and tans did? So who did the oppressing?

Odhinn

fundi wrote: »

Republicans murdered far more people - including Irish people - than even the black and tand did? So who did the oppressing?

The British, by use of the RIC and other resources.



The RIC was a paramilitary force who had a section devoted to spy on and persecute nationalists, as was referred to earlier in the thread.

McMurphy

fundi wrote: »

Republicans murdered far more people - including Irish people - than even the black and tans did? So who did the oppressing?

You keeping score card yeah?

Besides, the tans were part of the British State, get back to me with the numbers of innocent men, women and children who died at the hands of the British State over the years, compared with "Republicans" and we'll dance.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I don't get this logic at all as this individuals were part of a group.
So if it was the JP Crozier commemoration you would have no problem with it.

My children are COI as is my partner, if I attend ceremonies in their place of worship I see memorials to members of the RIC and the British Army all the time. Not once have I objected to that.
The COI Bishop of COrk was quoted on radio this morning that a formal state commemoration was the wrong thing to do and that the Expert Groups suggestion that it be 'local and academic' was the correct way.

But even if it was called Royal Irish Constabulary (ADRIC) commemoration you would be up in arms.
That makes no sense to me at all
I know you will try and make a comparision between the Nazis and Oskar Schindler v the Jews.

But this commemoration was for the RIC and the DMP the whole RIC in general which can encompass way back well over 150 years. In which many Irish people served.

There is not a country in the world that is expected to formally commemorate the apparatus of it's colonisers or invaders.

Plumbthedepths

FrancieBrady wrote: »

My children are COI as is my partner, if I attend ceremonies in their place of worship I see memorials to members of the RIC and the British Army all the time. Not once have I objected to that.
The COI Bishop of COrk was quoted on radio this morning that a formal state commemoration was the wrong thing to do and that the Expert Groups suggestion that it be 'local and academic' was the correct way.




There is not a country in the world that is expected to formally commemorate the apparatus of it's colonisers or invaders.

Apparently though we are not mature because most Irish people are unwilling to celebrate their oppressors.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is not a country in the world that is expected to formally commemorate the apparatus of it's colonisers or invaders.

So you would view Eamonn Ceannt's father (James Kent RIC officer) as part of this apparatus of colonisers, and even though James Kent had a Nationalist viewpoint for the time he lived in.
There were many more Irish people like James Kent - but what you are doing is appropriating your political viewpoint of today on men who lived in a a different era. Redmond supporters and so and so forth.
One of Ceannt's brothers was in the RIC and another joined the Royal Dublin Fusiliers.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/analysis/unknown-leader-eamonn-ceannt-was-an-ideologue-376681.html

That is from the one family yet in your viewpoint it is much more simplistic and narrow viewpoint.

fundi

McMurphy wrote: »

You keeping score card yeah?

Just keeping things in perspective. Earlier this thread someone said Republicans killed 1800 people and the black n tans killed 20 ? The winners got to write the history though.

gormdubhgorm

Odhinn wrote: »

.....by oppressing their own for a few scraps from the masters table. A widespread phenomena all over the empire.

Rubbish it was not all opression as other posters have pointed out.
Or are you one of these who call all police forces scum and would call the gardai scum?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Tony_Golden

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Adrian_Donohoe

If so at least you are consistent, if not you are a hypocrite.