RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

gormdubhgorm

fundi wrote: »

Just keeping things in perspective. Earlier this thread someone said Republicans killed 1800 people and the black n tans killed 20 ? The winners got to write the history though.

Surely more people died in the Civil War it's flame fanned by the now venerated Dev.
Of course people ignore inconvenient contradictions, and think history works in a nice neat straight line apparently!

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

So you would view Eamonn Ceannt's father (James Kent RIC officer) as part of this apparatus of colonisers, and even though James Kent had a Nationalist viewpoint for the time he lived in.
There were many more Irish people like James Kent - but what you are doing is appropriating your political viewpoint of today on men who lived in a a different era. Redmond supporters and so and so forth.
One of Ceannt's brothers was in the RIC and another joined the Royal Dublin Fusiliers.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/analysis/unknown-leader-eamonn-ceannt-was-an-ideologue-376681.html

That is from the one family yet in your viewpoint it is much more simplistic and narrow viewpoint.

Don't know why you posted that because it is a perfect reasoning for groups like this to be commemorated locally.

As I said, I have no problem wahtsoever with the places of worshop of these men commemorating them or their families.

What should never happen and what the Irish people said this week is that these 'organisations' and what they stood for should never be commemorated formally by the state.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Surely more people died in the Civil War it's flame fanned by the now venerated Dev.
Of course people ignore inconvenient contradictions, and think history works in a nice neat straight line apparently!

You say this despite the fact that it was Charlie Flanagan who implored people to 'ignore' the brutalities of the RIC and the atrocities of the Black and Tans?

Give it up Gorm. :rolleyes:

fundi

There should be no official state commemorating of people who operated without a democratic mandate 100
or 104 years ago. It only encourages the real and other IRA.

upupup

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

No mention of the likes of RIC man James McDonnell - Irish man Mayo born and bred and Irish speaker, shot in 1919 Solohedbeg - the odds against were 8-to 2 by the way. Yet it is glorified as the start of the WOI.

Thanks for the reminder.I will visit sologheadbeg and celebrate that day soon.

"Treacy had stated to me that the only way of starting a war was to kill someone, and we wanted to start a war, so we intended to kill some of the police whom we looked upon as the foremost and most important branch of the enemy forces [...] The only regret we had following the ambush was that there were only two policemen in it, instead of the six we had expected"

fly_agaric

It's a funny one...

If the state oficially "commemorate" the RIC as an organisation is that not admitting that war of independence was a complete mistake?
Therefore the state is in some way not really legitimate, and it certainly wasn't at the time of the 1st Dail (which FG also commemorated last year I think!)?

FG/FF are both political heirs of the ones who took up arms against the representatives of rule of law back then (incl. the RIC). They (FG) still venerate Michael Collins I believe!

It seems to be trying very hard to hold two contradictory thoughts in your head to honestly "commemorate" both the RIC and the IRA & heros of the war of independence!

I'm not intelligent enough for that I'm afraid, looks like the public (and alot of politicians) aren't evolved enough yet either! :pac:

Edit: Is the "commemoration" still "deferred" - will be interesting to see if that is indefinate or if it takes place a bit more quietly when the hoo-ha dies down (presumably might be post an election under a new FG govt. now)!

FrancieBrady

fundi wrote: »

There should be no official state commemorating of people who operated without a democratic mandate 100
or 104 years ago. It only encourages the real and other IRA.

That's Arlene's Forster's view pretty much spot on. The same Arlene that commemorates the forces of Britain pretty much throughout the year...every year.

Lefty Bicek

Some people need to grasp that the Republic of Ireland is not an amateur Historical Society.

Individual stories about your ancestors are irrelevant, as are all other tiresome whataboutery references to the 'complexity' of Irish history.

If individuals or societies with a fetish for British uniforms want to refer to Tom Barry, Jack White, James Connolly, well then it's a free country and away you go.

But the state should honour them for their part in our freedom, and should not be afraid to make that distinction. Those men wouldn't have been.

This state exists despite the RIC and DMP, not because of them.

This withering cant about 'the complexity of our past' is obscene, craw-thumping sh1t.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Don't know why you posted that because it is a perfect reasoning for groups like this to be commemorated locally.

As I said, I have no problem wahtsoever with the places of worshop of these men commemorating them or their families.

What should never happen and what the Irish people said this week is that these 'organisations' and what they stood for should never be commemorated formally by the state.

What does it have to be commemorated locally it because it is much easier for you to accept then. To pretend that thier were no good RIC/DMP men there just happened to be good men!
That is some cognitive dissonance in order to hold on tightly to a narrow political narrative.

The truth is some of the republican side were ***** yet we venerate them ALL as a group as heroes. We (In the ROI) do not distinguish between bad or good or indifferent they are heroes-freedom fighters. (Until after 22 of course hypocritical in my view)

The truth is some of the RIC/DMP were ***** yet they are ALL viewed as ***** and the same no distinction is given between them bad good or indifferent.

There is no thought of various strains of nationalism, home rule etc which were strongly held beliefs and well supported ones by the populace. As another poster pointed out the first past the post system can make people think that few people wanted home rule or a different kind of nationalism.

But no the narrative we are told to hold on to (in the ROI today) is any who go against a narrow form of nationalism are collaborators to the British Empire.
When in reality that is what many thought of the pro-treaty side after the war of indepence. Then the ROI was formed from these traitors/partitionists.

It seems some people are very vehement against the RIC/DMP comm, but in reality they are more tiocfaidh ar latte - than tiocfaidh ar la.

'Republican lite' I would call it at a safe historical distance where the line was literally drawn after 22.

FrancieBrady

fly_agaric wrote: »

It's a funny one...

If the state oficially "commemorate" the RIC as an organisation is that not admitting that war of independence was a complete mistake?
Therefore the state is in some way not really legitimate, and it certainly wasn't at the time of the 1st Dail (which FG also commemorated last year I think!)?

FG/FF are both political heirs of the ones who took up arms against the representatives of rule of law back then (incl. the RIC). They (FG) still venerate Michael Collins I believe!

It seems to be trying very hard to hold two contradictoray thoughts in your head to honestly "commemorate" both the RIC and the IRA & heros of the war of independence!

I'm not intelligent enough for that I'm afraid, looks like the public (and alot of politicians) aren't evolved enough yet either! :pac:

Edit: Is the "commemoration" still "deferred" - will be interesting to see if that is indefinate or if it takes place a bit more quietly when the hoo-ha dies down (presumably might be post an election under a new FG govt. now)!

I think it will be commemorated as recommended by the Expert Group if anything.
Do FG have the balls to do it now...is up for debate. The **** the load about face was very quick, they will be careful in future if they remain in government.

Consultation and caution will be the order of the day...a good thing all round IMO

fundi

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That's Arlene's Forster's view pretty much spot on. The same Arlene that commemorates the forces of Britain pretty much throughout the year...every year.

She does not commemorate the UVF or other paramilitaries, afaik. As she herself , as a child, was attacked by the IRA I understand she is very against paramilitaries - even though you are not.

FrancieBrady

fundi wrote: »

She does not commemorate the UVF or other paramilitaries, afaik. As she herself , as a child, was attacked by the IRA I understand she is very against paramilitaries - even though you are not.

She routinely commemorates our invaders and colonists...you know those guys we had to force to leave and who did leave and whose current monarch came here and acknowledged that what they had done here was, in essence, wrong?
'There were things that were done that we would prefer were not done'.

gormdubhgorm

fly_agaric wrote: »

It's a funny one...

If the state oficially "commemorate" the RIC as an organisation is that not admitting that war of independence was a complete mistake?
Therefore the state is in some way not really legitimate, and it certainly wasn't at the time of the 1st Dail (which FG also commemorated last year I think!)?

FG/FF are both political heirs of the ones who took up arms against the representatives of rule of law back then (incl. the RIC). They (FG) still venerate Michael Collins I believe!

It seems to be trying very hard to hold two contradictory thoughts in your head to honestly "commemorate" both the RIC and the IRA & heros of the war of independence!

I'm not intelligent enough for that I'm afraid, looks like the public (and alot of politicians) aren't evolved enough yet either! :pac:

Edit: Is the "commemoration" still "deferred" - will be interesting to see if that is indefinate or if it takes place a bit more quietly when the hoo-ha dies down (presumably might be post an election under a new FG govt. now)!

The whole of Irish history is contradictory but many chose to ignore those contractions and put the pieces of the jigsaw together any auld way to suit the politics they live in at the time.

FG deserve kudos for at least trying to change the old narrative, it has at least made people think. It has made me think I just never realised what mealy mouthed, brainwashed, hypocritical, bigoted nation we have become.
It was all just bubbling under the surface the people of ROI are no bettter than the hardcore Unionists. A mindest set in stone.
I would go further the people of the ROI are worse because they only praise republicanism before 1922. A 'qualified' sort of Republicanism when it suits.

Sir Oxman

fundi wrote: »

She does not commemorate the UVF or other paramilitaries, afaik. As she herself , as a child, was attacked by the IRA I understand she is very against paramilitaries - even though you are not.

"A woman-beating UDA thug pleaded guilty to having items likely to be of use to terrorists the day after it emerged the DUP met with the terror gang's leaders to discuss Brexit"
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/uda-thug-on-terrorism-charge-days-after-dup-meet-loyalists-38611759.html

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

The whole of Irish history is contradictory but many chose to ignore those contractions and put the pieces of the jigsaw together any auld way to suit the politics they live in at the time.

FG deserve kudos for at least trying to change the old narrative, it has at least made people think. It has made me think I just never realised what mealy mouthed, brainwashed, hypocritical, bigoted nation we have become.
It was all just bubbling under the surface the people of ROI are no bettter than the hardcore Unionists. A mindest set in stone.
I would go further the people of the ROI are worse because they only praise republicanism after 1922. A 'qualified' sort of Republicanism when it suits.

A formal state commemoration of the RIC/DMP being the biggest contradiction.
FG tried to force change and got owned, as my young wan might say.

Plumbthedepths

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

The whole of Irish history is contradictory but many chose to ignore those contractions and put the pieces of the jigsaw together any auld way to suit the politics they live in at the time.

FG deserve kudos for at least trying to change the old narrative, it has at least made people think. It has made me think I just never realised what mealy mouthed, brainwashed, hypocritical, bigoted nation we have become.
It was all just bubbling under the surface the people of ROI are no bettter than the hardcore Unionists. A mindest set in stone.
I would go further the people of the ROI are worse because they only praise republicanism after 1922. A 'qualified' sort of Republicanism when it suits.

What an absolute load of bullsh*t. You seem to despise this country, why continue living here?

FrancieBrady

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

What an absolute load of bullsh*t. You seem to despise this country, why continue living here?

fundl. gormdubh, our resident partitionists and a few others here (Leo and Charlie included) denigrate the country when they don't get their way. Who does that remind you of?

*Cough Sammy?
*cough Arlene?
*cough Jeffrey?

etc etc etc. It's the default position of a certain mindset.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A formal state commemoration of the RIC/DMP being the biggest contradiction.
FG tried to force change and got owned, as my young wan might say.

So your young wan has appropriated Americanism/American culture.
No invasion required... :rolleyes:

I hope you not let her watch British programmes reality tv etc - she might pick up thier 'bantz' too!

Plumbthedepths

FrancieBrady wrote: »

fundl. gormdubh, our resident partitionists and a few others here (Leo and Charlie included) denigrate the country when they don't get their way. Who does that remind you of?

*Cough Sammy?
*cough Arlene?
*cough Jeffrey?

etc etc etc. It's the default position of a certain mindset.

One could be forgiven for thinking the three amigos are bigots. Like how dare the public not honour the organisation that murdered and brutalised the civilian population.
They are funny though, as Matt said on another thread Rodeo Clowns.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

So your young wan has appropriated Americanism/American culture.
No invasion required... :rolleyes:

I hope you not let her watch British programmes reality tv etc - she might pick up thier 'bantz' too!

No, I am not a backward isolationist and have thought them to have pride and confidence in themselves culturally.

FrancieBrady

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

One could be forgiven for thinking the three amigos are bigots. Like how dare the public not honour the organisation that murdered and brutalised the civilian population.
They are funny though, as Matt said on another thread Rodeo Clowns.

The public do commemorate these groups, every year and for years. Those who want to.

gormdubhgorm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

What an absolute load of bullsh*t. You seem to despise this country, why continue living here?

It is not bullsh!t think about it -

In the Republic of Ireland/Free State/Ireland

Before 1916 many in Ireland wanted Home Rule.
1916 was done without a mandate
Those after 22 are conveniently viewed as terrorists (no mandate)

Right up the present day - Saoradh/Real IRA killing Lyra McKee (no mandate)- not in our name etc condemned

Yet a commemoration for the RIC/DMP causes uproar as people stick to a narrow republican viewpoint and do not discuss any nuance (as I have mentioned in previous posts)

I feel I have a much better understanding of this nation than you do - because I have taken the blinkers off.
As I said history is not neat and tidy with one simple narrative it is complex.
You have an extremely simple view of history due to your biases and the way you were taught it.
It is not completely your fault I do not blame you.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It is not bullsh!t think about it -

In the Republic of Ireland/Free State

Before 1916 many in Ireland wanted Home Rule.
1916 was done without a mandate
Those after 22 are conveniently viewed as terrorists

Right up the present day - Saoradh/Real IRA killing Lyra McKee - not in our name etc condemned

Yet a commemoration for the RIC/DMP causes uproar as people stick to a narrow republican viewpoint and do not discuss any nuance (as I have mentioned in previous posts)

I feel I have a much better understanding of this nation than you do - because I have taken the blinkers off.
As I said history is not neat and tidy with one simple narrative it is complex.
You have an extremely simple view of history due to your biases and the way you were taught it.
It is not completely your fault I do not blame you.

What 'nuance' needs to be discussed? They were the enforcers of an imperialist regime. Full stop.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What 'nuance' needs to be discussed? They were the enforcers of an imperialist regime. Full stop.

I have already explained them to you but you seem willfully blind to them because of your biases and politics.
Not your fault.
Personally I am more afraid of cultural appropriation from the UK and the USA.
The state of the Irish language etc etc.

But who needs to worry about culture - when people can pretend to show how Irish they are by 'protesting' against a commemoration of the 'colonial oppressors'

It is 'Republican lite' stuff for a country who has already lost its sense of Irishness.
So these sort of bravado moments make them feel better.
Hating the Brits = more Irish
Narrow viewpoint of history at a safe distant, that is all it is.

Plumbthedepths

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It is not bullsh!t think about it -

In the Republic of Ireland/Free State/Ireland

Before 1916 many in Ireland wanted Home Rule.
1916 was done without a mandate
Those after 22 are conveniently viewed as terrorists

Right up the present day - Saoradh/Real IRA killing Lyra McKee - not in our name etc condemned

Yet a commemoration for the RIC/DMP causes uproar as people stick to a narrow republican viewpoint and do not discuss any nuance (as I have mentioned in previous posts)

I feel I have a much better understanding of this nation than you do - because I have taken the blinkers off.
As I said history is not neat and tidy with one simple narrative it is complex.
You have an extremely simple view of history due to your biases and the way you were taught it.
It is not completely your fault I do not blame you.

I have a keen interest in history, much of what I know was not taught to me so you can stop with the assumptions lad. I respectfully suggest you f**k off with your condescending manner. No state anywhere in the world have comemorated their former colonial masters agents of oppression but people such as yourself whom still refuse to explain why we should expect the state here to do exactly that. The RIC/DMP/ Black and Tans are comemorated every August in St Paul's Church in Dublin as I suggested yesterday feel free to toodle along.

fly_agaric

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

The whole of Irish history is contradictory but many chose to ignore those contractions and put the pieces of the jigsaw together any auld way to suit the politics they live in at the time.

Well in a sense I think you have to do that to construct a state. I'd say many other countries have a lot bigger warts in their past that they tend to airbrush over when it comes to their official ceremonies & commemorations.

As I said above, having the state "commemorate" the RIC in some kind of official event with all their big-wigs in solemn attendence seems to me to directly question whether the state is legitimate at all.

It implies (to me?) the war of independence was a mistake really.

There's some hypocrisy in the whole thing too. The 2 main politicial parties spring from (and often venerate) those who took up arms against the RIC, destroyed the organisation and murdered many its members.

edit: I don't think this is something the state can really do a "remember both sides"/"oh wasn't it horrible" on and call it a day + everyone is happy.

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

FG deserve kudos for at least trying to change the old narrative, it has at least made people think. It has made me think I just never realised what mealy mouthed, brainwashed, hypocritical, bigoted nation we have become.
It was all just bubbling under the surface the people of ROI are no bettter than the hardcore Unionists. A mindest set in stone.
I would go further the people of the ROI are worse because they only praise republicanism after 1922. A 'qualified' sort of Republicanism when it suits.

I think that's a <bit> harsh now to be honest. Also did you mean "before 1922" there?
Not sure I understand the argument otherwise.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, I am not a backward isolationist and have thought them to have pride and confidence in themselves culturally.

So pride in the Irish language is isolationist?
Yet you speak in the tongue of the 'oppressor'.

You are not backward yet you have only one narrow viewpoint on the RIC/DMP? No contradictions there 'at all, at all at all' as Miley used to say.

You seem to see no contradictions whatsoever in your notion of republicanism.
It is all packaged neatly as far as you are concerned.

Zebra3

The RIC supporters want to talk about the numbers killed?

Britain committed genocide in Ireland.

It won't go well for youse, lads.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I have already explained them to you but you seem willfully blind to them because of your biases and politics.
Not your fault.
Personally I am more afraid of cultural appropriation from the UK and the USA.
The state of the Irish language etc etc.

But who needs to worry about culture - when people can pretend to show how Irish they are by 'protesting' against a commemoration of the 'colonial oppressors'

It is 'Republican lite' stuff for a country who has already lost its sense of Irishness.
So these sort of bravado moments make them feel better.
Hating the Brits = more Irish
Narrow viewpoint of history at a safe distant, that is all it is.

I have considered the 'nuances' you have said are there and I still don't think that these groups should be commemorated at state level.

Are you saying that everyone in this country is ignorant of the facts of the period? Because that sounds an awful lot like denigration and abuse to me.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

So pride in the Irish language is isolationist?
Yet you speak in the tongue of the 'oppressor'.

No, denigrating somebody for having an interest in the world around them is 'isolationist'.
Thinking that your cultural identity is going to be diluted by outside influence is also fearful and smacks of xenophobia to be honest.

You are not backward yet you have only one narrow viewpoint on the RIC/DMP? No contradictions there 'at all, at all at all' as Miley used to say.

You seem to see no contradictions whatsoever in your notion of republicanism.
It is all packaged neatly as far as you are concerned.

I don't have one narrow viewpoint. I keep telling you that I have no problem with appropriate remembrance. I didn't object to the place given to these groups by the Expert Group...NOBODY did.