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RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

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    #242
    dresden8
    Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    Sean.3516 wrote: »
    I’ve never subscribed to the belief that Irish Catholics who served in the RIC, Dublin Met or British Army were somehow “selling their souls”. Most of these catholic Irishmen were not ardent royalists but rather men trying to earn a living who simply could not afford the luxury of revolutionary idealism.

    This is not to denigrate the revolutionaries, (I’m not making a value judgement about either camp) but to draw moral equivalence between these men who were professional policemen doing their jobs and the Black and Tans/Auxiliaries who were by contrast mercenaries who committed war crimes is just wrong.

    I’ve always thought of the War of Independence as just as much a civil war as it was a war against an external power considering the extent to which the Irish fought against each other in the conflict. Most RIC/Dublin Met officers would have been members before the conflict began and therefore could not have been said to have signed up to kill Irishmen as the Tans did.

    The fact that THESE MEN (NOT THE TANS in case this isn’t clear) were in a situation where they fought fellow Irishmen is a tragedy and ought there deaths ought to be commemorated as such.

    Ever see those pictures of evictions from the 19th century where they knock a hole in the wall with a battering ram to make the place unlivable. The RIC are always there to make sure it happens.

    Families thrown onto the road and death.

    But sure, at least the RIC were getting paid for it.


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    #243
    saabsaab
    Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Odhinn wrote: »
    They had clear choices by 1919.


    For some yes, others may have felt trapped in the situation. Has anyone here not done the right thing because they had little room for manoeuvre?


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    #244
    wazzer1
    Registered Users Posts: 336 ✭✭wazzer1


    Millionaire only not wrote: »
    When was that motion put forward ?

    Tonight and it was passed


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    #245
    The high horse brigade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,456 ✭✭✭The high horse brigade


    wazzer1 wrote: »
    Tonight and it was passed

    What does this mean to the commemorations?


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    #246
    LuasSimon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭LuasSimon


    Will the people of Laois vote in
    Charlie “ Black and Tan “ Flanagan in the next election ??


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    #247
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Sean.3516 wrote: »
    The fact that THESE MEN (NOT THE TANS in case this isn’t clear) were in a situation where they fought fellow Irishmen is a tragedy and ought there deaths ought to be commemorated as such.

    The RIC were brutalising their fellow countrymen long before the Auxies and Tans showed up. Tomas McCurtain, lord mayor of Cork murdered in his home in front of his family by RIC men.

    I said earlier that the apologists like yourself want to reduce the War of Independance to a naitonal tragedy: all those poor lads died, oh its a tragedy.

    It's not a tragedy. The tragedy was previous 100 years, a tragedy which the RIC paid a key role in inflicting on the Irish people. I'm supremely grateful to the men who took the fight to the Crown Forces and put enough of them in the ground to end the tragedy.


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    #248
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,226 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    dresden8 wrote: »
    Ever see those pictures of evictions from the 19th century where they knock a hole in the wall with a battering ram to make the place unlivable. The RIC are always there to make sure it happens.

    Like the guards are there to make sure Gemma O'Doherty's events 'happen'? To make sure football matches 'happen'?
    Do you understand what a police force does?


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    #249
    cameramonkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,220 ✭✭✭cameramonkey


    Sean.3516 wrote: »
    If we can commemorate German soldiers who died during WW2 without commemorating the SS then we should be able to commemorate the RIC without commemorating the Black and Tans.


    How do you think the black and tans got their information to target Irish people. It was provided by their fellow officers in the RIC and DMP. They not only supported the killing of Irish people but also carried out murders.
    Thomas Mac Curtain was shot dead in front of his wife and son by a group of men with blackened faces, who were found to be members of the RIC by the official inquest into the event. The man who ordered the murder of MacCurtain RIC District Inspector Oswald Swanzy was later assassinated by the IRA. None of these men were black and tans,MacCurtain was shot dead five days before the tans arrived in Ireland.

    The people that this commemoration will be honoring are both the black and tans and those like Swanzy and his henchmen who murdered Irish citizens at will. There was no difference between the tans and the RIC in their support for British rule and their eagerness to murder Irish people who wished for freedom.
    Imagine the Irish government commemorating the likes of Oswald Swanzy and his gang of killers. Its frankly astonishing.


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    #250
    Millionaire only not
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭Millionaire only not


    Who in gods earth proposed this commemoration in the first place !
    or will it be the same as who ordered the famous photo copier !
    In fairness we are electing stupid people , from the Healy Rae’s , Maria Bailey to ones that push buttons for absentee politicians !


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    #251
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 7,712 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    spurious wrote: »
    Like the guards are there to make sure Gemma O'Doherty's events 'happen'? To make sure football matches 'happen'?
    Do you understand what a police force does?

    We all know by now how the RIC policed football matches.


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    #252
    careless sherpa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 373 ✭✭careless sherpa


    spurious wrote: »
    Like the guards are there to make sure Gemma O'Doherty's events 'happen'? To make sure football matches 'happen'?
    Do you understand what a police force does?

    More akin to the role of the SA police force during apartheid than a Garda managing traffic


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    #253
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 7,712 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    careless sherpa wrote: »
    More akin to the role of the SA police force during apartheid than a Garda managing traffic

    That they even tried to make the comparison boggles the mind. They couldn’t be for real.


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    #254
    wazzer1
    Registered Users Posts: 336 ✭✭wazzer1


    The high horse brigade wrote: »
    What does this mean to the commemorations?

    It means Dublin city council arent supporting it.


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    #255
    Zetor19
    Registered Users Posts: 155 ✭✭Zetor19


    When is Black and Tan Leo proposing we build a statue on o Connell street for that great Cromwell fella? Theses blue shirt cnuts better get it in the election.


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    #256
    Sean.3516
    Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Sean.3516


    dresden8 wrote: »
    Ever see those pictures of evictions from the 19th century where they knock a hole in the wall with a battering ram to make the place unlivable. The RIC are always there to make sure it happens.

    Families thrown onto the road and death.

    But sure, at least the RIC were getting paid for it.

    Sure the RIC did absolutely terrible things during the mid 19th. If ever there was a more morally justifiable time for an Irish rebellion it was during this time.

    However the question is whether or not we should commemorate RIC men who died in the War of Independence which took place 70 years after the time you cite.

    By this time, the British policy of outrightly abusing the Irish people in the hopes of “solving the Irish Problem” had been discontinued. People weren’t being thrown out of their homes in the middle of a famine at this time. Yes, there was widespread poverty and bad administration but this is not attributable to the men charged with enforcing the law.

    They were a police force. Being a police force entails helping fight domestic rebellions. It’s tragic that for these men this meant fighting their fellow Irishmen and there’s no comparing them with mercenaries the Brits brought in who burned Cork city and shot up Croke Park.


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    #257
    The high horse brigade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,456 ✭✭✭The high horse brigade


    wazzer1 wrote: »
    It means Dublin city council arent supporting it.

    Yes, I realize that, but is this enough to call it off?


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    #258
    CrankyHaus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭CrankyHaus


    Millionaire only not wrote: »
    Who in gods earth proposed this commemoration in the first place !
    or will it be the same as who ordered the famous photo copier !
    In fairness we are electing stupid people , from the Healy Rae’s to ones that push buttons for absentee politicians !

    The Historical and Reconciliation Police Society (HARP), which I understand to be retired Gardai with antecedents in the RIC and DMP, have been calling for a commemoration for some time and Justice Minister Charlie Flanagan is the member of Government vocally in favour of this, with the backing of Leo but the curious silence of others in FG who I suspect are beginning to realise what a mistake this was.

    Here's an article from Stephen Collins from 2018 advocating it. While I disagree with its position it gives a good illustration of the need for nuance around things like this. However there was no nuance in the Government's implementation of the initiative : a tin-eared commemoration of all RIC men who died, "murdered" in Charlie Flanagan's words, including the Black and Trans and Auxiliaries.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/state-still-cannot-bring-itself-to-honour-the-memory-of-ric-men-1.3642435?mode=amp


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    #259
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,124 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    saabsaab wrote: »
    They had joined when this was a regular police force and many helped or did not really fight the rebels. Others were trapped in their job -I 'm sure this is common enough elsewhere- caught between a rock and a hard place.




    It was never a "regular police force".


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    #260
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,503 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    The high horse brigade wrote: »
    Yes, I realize that, but is this enough to call it off?

    No. The commemoration is organised by the Decade of Centenaries Committee which in turn reports to the Minister for Culture, Heritage and Gaeltacht. It is not being run by Dublin City Council.


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    #261
    TwoMonthsOff
    Registered Users Posts: 343 ✭✭TwoMonthsOff


    CrankyHaus wrote: »
    The Historical and Reconciliation Police Society (HARP) have been calling for a commemoration for some time and Justice Minister Charlie Flanagan is the member of Government vocally in favour of this, with the backing of Leo but the curious silence of others in FG who I suspect are realising what a mistake this was.

    It goes to show just how out of touch with the people those two clowns are, either that or they just dont care what we think.


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    #262
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 7,712 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The high horse brigade wrote: »
    Yes, I realize that, but is this enough to call it off?

    Lord Vradkar looked fairly defiant about it earlier today. I don’t think he cares what support it has here so long as it’s good international twitter kudos for him.


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    #263
    Sean.3516
    Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Sean.3516


    saabsaab wrote: »
    For some yes, others may have felt trapped in the situation. Has anyone here not done the right thing because they had little room for manoeuvre?

    Or because they had a family to support? Considering the pittance our Defence Forces are paid in 2019, I can’t imagine the pay was good in the Flying Columns in 1919.


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    #264
    saabsaab
    Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    The high horse brigade wrote: »
    Yes, I realize that, but is this enough to call it off?


    I'm sure that this was intended to promote reconciliation but it's turning out to be a bit of a PR mistake as it is being misunderstood by many. Maybe it should be dropped now.


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    #265
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 7,712 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    saabsaab wrote: »
    I'm sure that this was intended to promote reconciliation but it's turning out to be a bit of a PR mistake as it is being misunderstood by many. Maybe it should be dropped now.

    It’s not being misunderstood at all, no matter how the apologists try to paint it.


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    #266
    Millionaire only not
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭Millionaire only not


    (Quote by Sean. 3516 )-By this time, the British policy of outrightly abusing the Irish people in the hopes of “solving the Irish Problem” had been discontinued. People weren’t being thrown out of their homes in the middle of a famine at this time. Yes, there was widespread poverty and bad administration but this is not attributable to the men charged with enforcing the law.


    Are u for real the British never and will never stop abusing Irish people !
    Obviously u have never lived or worked in England !


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    #267
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,179 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Millionaire only not wrote: »
    Who in gods earth proposed this commemoration in the first place !
    or will it be the same as who ordered the famous photo copier !
    In fairness we are electing stupid people , from the Healy Rae’s , Maria Bailey to ones that push buttons for absentee politicians !

    This is the same government that had to withdraw a 1916 video because they attempted to airbrush out any mention of the significant event of that year.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/google-translate-ireland-2016-1778762-Nov2014/

    A government so arrogant they think the electorate will allow them do anything. Leo will have more egg on his face before this is over too by the looks of it.


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    #268
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,503 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    saabsaab wrote: »
    I'm sure that this was intended to promote reconciliation but it's turning out to be a bit of a PR mistake as it is being misunderstood by many. Maybe it should be dropped now.

    I can't see it being dropped. People are entitled not to attend, conversely the Government also seems to clearly believe that people are entitled to attend if they so wish.

    If you think this is bad, wait until the Civil War commemorations get underway. The plans for them are well underway.

    How do you stand on the anti-treaty or pro-treaty forces? It's easy for us all to be united against the RIC, it's going to be a lot more awkward by the time 2022 comes around!


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    #269
    buried
    Registered Users Posts: 9,807 ✭✭✭buried


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    I can't see it being dropped. People are entitled not to attend, conversely the Government also seems to clearly believe that people are entitled to attend if they so wish.

    If you think this is bad, wait until the Civil War commemorations get underway. The plans for them are well underway.

    How do you stand on the anti-treaty or pro-treaty forces? It's easy for us all to be united against the RIC, it's going to be a lot more awkward by the time 2022 comes around!

    It'll be grand. We'll all still be celebrating after getting rid of this government of self hating obnoxious **** in the upcoming election

    "You have disgraced yourselves again" - W. B. Yeats



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    #270
    LuasSimon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭LuasSimon


    Fine Gaels pro British agenda will backfire for them in many marginal seats in the upcoming general election . Anyone with an ounce of Irish nationalism will vote anyone bar Fine Gael after this carry on .


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    #271
    Beeping Kitchen Appliances
    Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭Beeping Kitchen Appliances


    When the free state came into operation they kept a good bulk of the DMP on. The favoured idea was a 50/50 mix. Then you had the 'expertise' and experience of the old guard on how to actually police. But not too many - the public needed to accept new force and the regime they represented. Also they didn't want to go to far in the other direction. A large body of armed irish men was dangerous in this volatile period. This is why the police were ultimately disarmed. A retrospective gloss was put on that - 'policing with the consent of the people, happy friendly....'


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