Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

Options
1…9293959798…108

Comments

  • Options
    #2822
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,124 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    hawley wrote: »
    If we were to offer to take Harry Sussex as our new king it might help heal wounds. The offer would be contingent to the unionists accepting a united Ireland. It would negate the need for a presidency, would give us closer ties with Britain and they would be ambassadors for our country.




    You haven't noticed the whole brexit/Boris debacle I take it......


  • Options
    #2823
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,184 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Bishop of hope wrote: »
    I often wonder what would have happened if Collins hadn't died.
    I honestly don't think he'd have let nationalist fester up there.
    De Valera was a poor substitute imo.

    Collins and Connolly both.
    Connolly's rhetoric or political philosophy might not work today, but back then I think he may have had a huge impact. I think Pearse would have faded into irrelevance.

    So many what if's.


  • Options
    #2824
    bb12
    Registered Users Posts: 886 ✭✭✭bb12


    chrissb8 wrote: »
    Fair enough. But I was talking to my Dad the other day and we were both in agreement 100 years ago was not that long.

    My dad who was born in 1953 was able to hear stories from his Mom who's uncle had fought in the civil war. My nan passed in 2006. People act like it was that long ago.....it really wasn't. Infact there were still veterans alive up until the 60s.

    exactly this. my grandfather was born in 1878. he was long dead before i was born but my grandmother who was born in 1896 was still alive so i had a direct link to him. 100 years is not that long at all.


  • Options
    #2825
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,719 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Nah that's not a solution it's a cop out.
    Partition was another.

    What would your solution have been in 1920 so?
    Home Rule?


  • Options
    #2826
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    markodaly wrote: »
    What would your solution have been in 1920 so?
    Home Rule?

    By 1920, it was too late, but in the what-if scenarios, the best solution if in the decades preceding the 1910 election, there had been leadership with the vision to persuade Irish catholics of the benefit of supporting the Liberals, abandoning fantasies of breaking away from London, but fully moving to being an integral and committed part of the United Kingdom. All such issues as partition, violence, 100 years of backwardness and poverty Iin the south, and Catholic-protestant conflict, would have been avoided


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #2827
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,719 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    By 1920, it was too late, but in the what-if scenarios, the best solution if in the decades preceding the 1910 election, there had been leadership with the vision to persuade Irish catholics of the benefit of supporting the Liberals, abandoning fantasies of breaking away from London, but fully moving to being an integral and committed part of the United Kingdom. All such issues as partition, violence, 100 years of backwardness and poverty Iin the south, and Catholic-protestant conflict, would have been avoided

    Perhaps, but the early 20th century across Europe saw a rise in nationalism. WWI was a direct result of it in the Balkins.

    Your scenario couuld have worked maybe, and we could have moved to a SNP Scottish scenario were in years to come to vote for it democraticlly without a shot being fired.

    The partition issue, however, had no easy solution. Not today, not then. People going on about it being a cop out, yet offering no working alternatives are just dumb and naive.


  • Options
    #2828
    jmcc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,412 ✭✭✭jmcc


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    By 1920, it was too late, but in the what-if scenarios, the best solution if in the decades preceding the 1910 election, there had been leadership with the vision to persuade Irish catholics of the benefit of supporting the Liberals, abandoning fantasies of breaking away from London, but fully moving to being an integral and committed part of the United Kingdom. All such issues as partition, violence, 100 years of backwardness and poverty Iin the south, and Catholic-protestant conflict, would have been avoided
    Perhaps you want to be British, TROL. The Irish people decided that we are Irish and Independent.

    Regards...jmcc


  • Options
    #2829
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    A response to the spin from those that wish to portray the RIC as a benign organisation.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/the-ric-was-never-a-normal-police-force-commemorating-it-would-be-a-travesty-1.4136031?mode=amp


  • Options
    #2830
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,184 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    markodaly wrote: »
    Perhaps, but the early 20th century across Europe saw a rise in nationalism. WWI was a direct result of it in the Balkins.

    Your scenario couuld have worked maybe, and we could have moved to a SNP Scottish scenario were in years to come to vote for it democraticlly without a shot being fired.

    The partition issue, however, had no easy solution. Not today, not then. People going on about it being a cop out, yet offering no working alternatives are just dumb and naive.

    What was wrong with giving the majority what they wanted?

    Was it worth a war of Independence, a civil war and a 40 year conflict/war and all the other conflict?


  • Options
    #2831
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,719 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    What was wrong with giving the majority what they wanted?

    The majority of the North wanted to stay in Britain.
    The majority of the UK wanted Ireland to stay in the Union.
    That is the problem with such notions about 'Majority'.
    Was it worth a war of Independence, a civil war and a 40 year conflict/war and all the other conflict?

    Not really. I would have preferred to see what Home Rule would have done personally, which why I am a skeptic of the 'heros' of the rising.
    Naturally Home Rule would still have had to grapple with the Unionists.

    However, it still does not answer the question about partition. How could this island have avoided it?

    Partition was pretty much inevitable in many many cases. Those advocating other wise are naive or foolish, but I would love to hear their 'solutions'.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #2832
    J Mysterio
    Registered Users Posts: 11,035 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    Some interesting tweets from another Mark Daly.

    https://twitter.com/SenatorMarkDaly/status/1216276471695605762?s=20

    https://twitter.com/SenatorMarkDaly/status/1216363619358859271?s=20

    https://twitter.com/SenatorMarkDaly/status/1216396225534156800?s=20

    I like this one better


  • Options
    #2833
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,184 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    markodaly wrote: »
    The majority of the North wanted to stay in Britain.
    The majority of the UK wanted Ireland to stay in the Union.
    That is the problem with such notions about 'Majority'.

    The north was not autonomous it was a part of the island the British had lost to rebellion.


    Not really. I would have preferred to see what Home Rule would have done personally, which why I am a skeptic of the 'heros' of the rising.
    Naturally Home Rule would still have had to grapple with the Unionists.

    However, it still does not answer the question about partition. How could this island have avoided it?

    Partition was pretty much inevitable in many many cases. Those advocating other wise are naive or foolish, but I would love to hear their 'solutions'.

    Home Rule or Partition always left you with those 'hero's' of the rising ready to step in if either failed to work. That happened with partition.
    The reality was and is, the British presence is contested.


  • Options
    #2834
    fundi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 187 ✭✭fundi


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    The reality was and is, the British presence is contested.

    Plenty of people in the world contest America, that does not give A Q or ISIS any right to bomb skyscrapers any more than it gave the IRA the right to murder thousands of people.


  • Options
    #2835
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    The reality was and is, the British presence is contested.
    Not anymore.

    Ireland no longer contests or denys the jurisidiction of Britain in the six counties and unambiguously upholds the right of those in the six counties to determine their own place in the world.

    The validity of the British presence in Ireland has been formally recognised since 10 December 1999.


  • Options
    #2836
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,184 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    seamus wrote: »
    Not anymore.

    Ireland no longer contests or denys the jurisidiction of Britain in the six counties and unambiguously upholds the right of those in the six counties to determine their own place in the world.

    The validity of the British presence in Ireland has been formally recognised since 10 December 1999.

    That doesn't mean their presence is not 'contested'. A constitutional aspiration to unite the people implies that we believe the people are divided.
    There is no problem in my ideology having a reason for that division as well as a 'solution'. And my solution has always been (or rather the beginning of a solution) an end of Partition.
    I don't 'violently' contest the British presence but I do contest it.


  • Options
    #2837
    Bishop of hope
    Registered Users Posts: 2,928 ✭✭✭Bishop of hope


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    By 1920, it was too late, but in the what-if scenarios, the best solution if in the decades preceding the 1910 election, there had been leadership with the vision to persuade Irish catholics of the benefit of supporting the Liberals, abandoning fantasies of breaking away from London, but fully moving to being an integral and committed part of the United Kingdom. All such issues as partition, violence, 100 years of backwardness and poverty Iin the south, and Catholic-protestant conflict, would have been avoided

    You're joking, North of the border is an example of what would have happened, its there to be seen how it would have worked out.
    Subservient Catholic nationalists being kept in their place by electoral gerrymandering and beaten down by a royalist police force, much like the RUC turned out to be.


  • Options
    #2838
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,184 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Bishop of hope wrote: »
    You're joking, North of the border is an example of what would have happened, its there to be seen how it would have worked out.
    Subservient Catholic nationalists being kept in their place by electoral gerrymandering and beaten down by a royalist police force, much like the RUC turned out to be.

    John Bruton tries this tearful 'home rule regret' nonsense too. Like the RIC/DMP thing it has bound up in it the stock deference to the UK - the ongoing apology for our 'behaviour'.

    Bound up in this 'theory' is the absurdity expressed by some of the posters on here that the Irish people should have taken the soup and waited for the British to get around to being democrats.
    The same British who ignored us in 1918, and the same British who, having partitioned the country stood idly by and allowed the Unionist majority change the voting system so as they could gerrymander and oppress for another 80 years or so. And when that went up in flames you STILL have people here claiming that Northern nationalists should have lain down and waited some more for our neighbours to be democrats. :rolleyes:

    And always always always these genuflecting apologists like Flanagan require 'Us' to be the accommodaters, 'us' to be the first to put the hand out in apology.


  • Options
    #2839
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,898 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Yep, imagine wanting to stay part of an evil, racist empire.

    Says a lot about some people's "values".


  • Options
    #2840
    fundi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 187 ✭✭fundi


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Yep, imagine wanting to stay part of an evil, racist empire.

    .

    In the 80 years following independence, millions of Irish people did emigrate to the evil, racist empire, and found it to be less evil and racist than the evil racist country they left behind.


  • Options
    #2841
    Hamsterchops
    Registered Users Posts: 3,260 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    Star Trek Voyager - Living witness (s4 ep23) ...

    Excellent analogy of how the events of history can be distorted (by accident or deliberately), so whether you're a star trek fan or not, this particular episode makes compelling viewing when considering this topic. Highly recommended when considering the evils of Empire and the genocidal RIC & mass murdering DMP.

    Enjoy (45 mins approx on Youtube).


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #2842
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,184 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    fundi wrote: »
    In the 80 years following independence, millions of Irish people did emigrate to the evil, racist empire, and found it to be less evil and racist than the evil racist country they left behind.

    Please present us with the data that shows this please? While some emigration is voluntary, much of it isn't.

    Nobody is in denial of the struggle we had to be independent. But you will have to demonstrate, beyond anecdote, that 'millions' found the places they emigrated to 'less evil and racist than the evil racist country they left behind'.

    The data actually shows massive returns to the country when we prosper.
    The majority (59.4%) would like to raise their children in Ireland ‘a
    great deal’ or ‘quite a lot’, with 23.9% undecided. Emigrants attribute this desire to a number of
    factors, the most common relate to having their children in close proximity to their family, the
    Irish education system and the Irish mentality generally.
    https://www.ucc.ie/en/media/research/emigre/Emigration_in_an_Age_of_Austerity_Final.pdf


  • Options
    #2843
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,898 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    fundi wrote: »
    In the 80 years following independence, millions of Irish people did emigrate to the evil, racist empire, and found it to be less evil and racist than the evil racist country they left behind.

    That's of no consolation to those who were literally being raped in Kenya by occupying British soldiers.

    Kenyan men and women.


  • Options
    #2844
    upupup
    Registered Users Posts: 605 ✭✭✭upupup


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    That's of no consolation to those who were literally being raped in Kenya by occupying British soldiers.

    Kenyan men and women.

    Brave British soldiers(with guns) helping out the poor countries again.
    3846.jpg


  • Options
    #2845
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,184 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    upupup wrote: »
    Brave British soldiers(with guns) helping out the poor countries again.
    3846.jpg

    Shooting and bombing others into 'the acceptance of their gifts'.

    They are still at it. They've even built shiny new aircraft carriers to do it. :D


  • Options
    #2846
    upupup
    Registered Users Posts: 605 ✭✭✭upupup


    a holiday snap from malaysia
    e562dd89df1fd22d93bfc16a48fc05ca-239x300.jpg


  • Options
    #2847
    fundi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 187 ✭✭fundi


    Millions of Irish have emigrated to your "evil, racist" empire of the UK, Australia, New Zealand, Canada etc and if anything found it to be less evil and racist than the Republican Ireland they left behind.


  • Options
    #2848
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,401 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    fundi wrote: »
    Millions of Irish have emigrated to your "evil, racist" empire of the UK, Australia, New Zealand, Canada etc and if anything found it to be less evil and racist than the Republican Ireland they left behind.

    :rolleyes:


  • Options
    #2849
    fundi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 187 ✭✭fundi


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Yep, imagine wanting to stay part of an evil, racist empire.

    .

    :rolleyes:


  • Options
    #2850
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,719 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    The north was not autonomous it was a part of the island the British had lost to rebellion.

    What do you think would have happened if there was no partition? The 1921 version of the IRA and UVF sings kumbaya and holds hands?
    Home Rule or Partition always left you with those 'hero's' of the rising ready to step in if either failed to work. That happened with partition.
    The reality was and is, the British presence is contested.

    Is contested? One should re-read the GFA so as nationalists voted enmass to accept the status quo until there is a democratic mandate that says otherwise.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #2851
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,184 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    fundi wrote: »
    Millions of Irish have emigrated to your "evil, racist" empire of the UK, Australia, New Zealand, Canada etc and if anything found it to be less evil and racist than the Republican Ireland they left behind.

    The majority (59.4%) would like to raise their children in Ireland ‘a
    great deal’ or ‘quite a lot’, with 23.9% undecided. Emigrants attribute this desire to a number of
    factors, the most common relate to having their children in close proximity to their family, the
    Irish education system and the Irish mentality generally.

    Yup, sure fundl. Sure! :rolleyes:

    The deferential, apologist days are over. Charlie Flanagan seen to that.

    The Irish people have shown in 2016 that they can look at our past and be proud of it, without the need to be triumphalist or exclusionist.
    What they will not tolerate though is lies being told to salve the conscience of some. If your ancestor was a member of the forces of oppression, then you need to deal with that in the same way republicans need to deal with the things they did that were wrong and the decisions they took.


Advertisement