RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

Plumbthedepths

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

They certainly were. It was the standard of the time. As mentioned, nobody in Ireland really cared about that either though, and why would they - they were equally men of their time - and they moved to the UK and made their lives and careers there.

The irony of calling oneself TROL( by initials) yet unable to trol their intended targets. Name change prehaps.

Edit,
Francie beat me to it.

end of the road

fundi wrote: »

You are rewriting history by claiming there was apartheid in N I in the nineties. What an insult to the victims of actual apartheid.

apartheid is apartheid, wherever it takes place.
northern ireland was an apartheid state.

The Rape of Lucretia

Bishop of hope wrote: »

You're joking, North of the border is an example of what would have happened, its there to be seen how it would have worked out.
Subservient Catholic nationalists being kept in their place by electoral gerrymandering and beaten down by a royalist police force, much like the RUC turned out to be.

With a full buy in of ALL Ireland to a Westminster parliament rather and an Irish focused blinker, there would have been no conflict at all. No murder. No societal conflict and segregation. Simply 6million people as citizens of a United Kingdom. And those in the south would not have remained as the most economically backward region in the British Isles for 50 years had they full engaged in what was for 100 years, the most dynamic, progressive, and rich country in the world. Instead it chose to eek out a pitiful living doing little more than growing a few spuds on a couple of acres. And for the latter 50 years of that people though they were better off becuase the were no 'free' ? Its fine now that the Irish economy has almost bridged the gap in recent decause for people to say it was all worth while, and arent we grand. But until the late 80s the price for the folly at the beginning of the century was still being paid, had been paid for two generations, and by millions of people both in Ireland, and those forced to emigrate. The free state and early republic was an embarrassing travesty.

fundi

end of the road wrote: »

apartheid is apartheid, wherever it takes place.
northern ireland was an apartheid state.

Not in the nineteen nineties, which is what the poster said. Everyone had equal right to vote, there was full freedom of movement, etc etc

buried

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

That's either ignorant or stupid. Or both. Or maybe you do know better but are just trying to offend.

Poor auld TROL spent decades being the reluctant problem child of an increasingly irate mother and was the cause of its own TROL mentality

FrancieBrady

Edgware wrote: »

Have to drop to your village idiot level

Whenever you get a counterargument together I'd be interested in seeing it.

The premise is, that Nationalists never looked back after the Anglo Irish Agreement. And it was the real defeat of the Unionist veto something Britain wasn't willing to do with Sunningdale.
Unionists had dirtied their bib to often and turned Britain the other way, to look to an alliance with Dublin to get a solution. Unionists couldn't dismantle it, try as they might. As they weren't able to do with the GFA, either at the time and through all the shennanigins of Brexit.

Apparently they will be able to dismantle an affirmative UI vote...but looking at the real history I don't know where partitionist optimism is coming from.

Ted_YNWA

This is best suited to CA

Zebra3

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

With a full buy in of ALL Ireland to a Westminster parliament rather and an Irish focused blinker, there would have been no conflict at all. No murder. No societal conflict and segregation. Simply 6million people as citizens of a United Kingdom. And those in the south would not have remained as the most economically backward region in the British Isles for 50 years had they full engaged in what was for 100 years, the most dynamic, progressive, and rich country in the world. Instead it chose to eek out a pitiful living doing little more than growing a few spuds on a couple of acres. And for the latter 50 years of that people though they were better off becuase the were no 'free' ? Its fine now that the Irish economy has almost bridged the gap in recent decause for people to say it was all worth while, and arent we grand. But until the late 80s the price for the folly at the beginning of the century was still being paid, had been paid for two generations, and by millions of people both in Ireland, and those forced to emigrate. The free state and early republic was an embarrassing travesty.

People who support human rights, democracy and freedom do not want to be part of a racist empire. An empire that committed genocide and ethnic cleansing, practiced apartheid. The occupying power that labeled Irish people as "savages". A racist slur that they would use across the globe during the racist wars as would their successor states ran by the WASPs.

Imagine wanting to be part of a country with an unelected head of state. Being subservient to a family of inbred mongloids.

I would gladly take being part of an economically backward country to being part a supremacist blood soaked empire.

If you read volume one of Mein Kampf, you will constantly come across Hitler's praise for England.

The genocide of the natives in North America and Australia, he was a big fan of that. Gave him all sorts of ideas. He wanted his dream nazi state to ally itself with England. Natural bedfellows in wiping out the untermensch.

marieholmfan

Edgware wrote: »

Are you saying sf/ira supported Sunningdale?

Before I mentioned them had you ever heard of the Ulster Workers Council?
I don't think you had.

I think that you know almost nothing about this subject and any engagement with you is a waste of my time.

buried

All these supposedly Irish but definite revixionist people up in here defending the actions of the occupying regime of the British Empire on our Island are lucky to be even existing. The regime these people so emphatically want to defend or glorify wanted their own ancestors dead. Wanted them wiped off the face of the Earth. And they did a good job in the attempt. I just want to say to that particular crew here this - Think about that for a minute. It's only by the laws of slim chance that you people are the ones here now and not the descendants of other people who were murdered through Genocide and thrown into about a hundred thousand burial pits across the country. But hey, as long as some crowd of Saxe Cotheburgenstein Germans can still live it up as heads of state for doing absolutely nothing but getting their pictures taken by HELLO magazine in another country that doesn't give a fiddlers f**k about ye, well, worship that useless $hite to the max lads. Nobody is going to thank ye for it not even yourselves or where ye all came from.

fundi

Zebra3 wrote: »

People who support human rights, democracy and freedom do not want to be part of a racist empire.

The Empires of all the European countries were of their time. You fail to understand that. They all had Empires. Since Independence we done a lot to help
human rights, democracy and freedom in the world against all the major threats:rolleyes:.

marieholmfan

fundi wrote: »

The Empires of all the European countries were of their time. You fail to understand that. They all had Empires. Since Independence we done a lot to help
human rights, democracy and freedom in the world against all the major threats:rolleyes:.

An Irish empire would have been radically different

We are better than the English

Edgware

end of the road wrote: »

apartheid is apartheid, wherever it takes place.
northern ireland was an apartheid state.

Not in the 90s. Get your facts right

Edgware

marieholmfan wrote: »

Before I mentioned them had you ever heard of the Ulster Workers Council?
I don't think you had.

I think that you know almost nothing about this subject and any engagement with you is a waste of my time.

Sorry for taking you away from The Beano

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So, the question remains as it does to this day.

Without the support of the British, how would Unionists mount a sustained and effective campaign and to what end?

The IRA of old didnt have much support from any nation state but did Ok in fighting a guerilla campaign. Do you think the 100,000 UVF wouldnt have much success agaisnt the newly formed Free State Army and largely unarmed Gardai?

You think militarily the Free State would have easily put down any resistance to a United Ireland ruled from Dublin?

I love your thought process here, it pretty much amounts to 'Sure it will be grand'.

So again, tell us all how partition could have been peacefully avoided.

marieholmfan

markodaly wrote: »

The IRA of old didnt have much support from any nation state but did Ok in fighting a guerilla campaign. Do you think the 100,000 UVF wouldnt have much success agaisnt the newly formed Free State Army and largely unarmed Gardai?

You think militarily the Free State would have easily put down any resistance to a United Ireland ruled from Dublin?

I love your thought process here, it pretty much amounts to 'Sure it will be grand'.

So again, tell us all how partition could have been peacefully avoided.

The British Army could have obeyed its orders and not staged a coup d'etat at the Curragh. Because the Curragh mutiny was in fact a coup d'etat.

markodaly

Odhinn wrote: »

...the vast majority of our emigrants wouldn't have had to leave in the first place.

I doubt that. Emigration from 1921 to the early 1990's was still very very high.
We do not have a great record in this regard. Ireland was poor regadless of who ran us.

buried

markodaly wrote: »

I doubt that. Emigration from 1921 to the early 1990's was still very very high.
We do not have a great record in this regard. Ireland was poor regadless of who ran us.

You should look at the figures for everything including emigration during the 19th century if you want to see some really poor administration.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

The IRA of old didnt have much support from any nation state but did Ok in fighting a guerilla campaign. Do you think the 100,000 UVF wouldnt have much success agaisnt the newly formed Free State Army and largely unarmed Gardai?

You think militarily the Free State would have easily put down any resistance to a United Ireland ruled from Dublin?

I love your thought process here, it pretty much amounts to 'Sure it will be grand'.

So again, tell us all how partition could have been peacefully avoided.

You just answered with 'sure, it will be terrible'.

Answer the question in your opinion, map out how the unionists will achieve their aims violently.
1. Where will they source armaments with two states, Ireland and Britain not to mention America tracking and watching them.
2. How will they get them in, being sealed in a corner with no relatively safe hinterland from which to operate?
3. How will they move within the island having no infrastructure of support outside their own very defined areas.
4. How do they motivate moderate Unionists to support them, given there is no stomach evident in Unionism for a violent campaign.

The answers are not, look what the IRA did by the way.

* I never said anything about 'partition being peacefully avoided' by the way. Partition has caused nothing but conflict and is now about to do it again, physically and diplomatically.

Zebra3

fundi wrote: »

The Empires of all the European countries were of their time. You fail to understand that. They all had Empires. Since Independence we done a lot to help
human rights, democracy and freedom in the world against all the major threats:rolleyes:.

Do you give the Germans that pass for their empire in the 30s and 40s?

"Ah sure the auld German genocide in eastern Europe, 'twas grand, everyone was up for a bit of genocide back then".

What's the cut off date for genocide, ethnic cleansing, dropping chemical weapons, and occupying foreign lands being acceptable?

Odhinn

fundi wrote: »

The Empires of all the European countries were of their time. You fail to understand that. They all had Empires. Since Independence we done a lot to help
human rights, democracy and freedom in the world against all the major threats:rolleyes:.

Is there some reason you seem to be ignoring questions put to you?

fundi

Zebra3 wrote: »

Do you give the Germans that pass for their empire in the 30s and 40s?

I was not thinking much of the Germans in WW2 when it came to Empire, although it is noteworthy that the UK did a lot more to end that than we did. When it came to European Empires, I was thinking more of Spain, France, Belgium, Denmark, Italy, in fact all of the European countries had them inc Germany before WW2.

fundi

markodaly wrote: »

The IRA of old didnt have much support from any nation state but did Ok in fighting a guerilla campaign. Do you think the 100,000 UVF wouldnt have much success agaisnt the newly formed Free State Army and largely unarmed Gardai?

You think militarily the Free State would have easily put down any resistance to a United Ireland ruled from Dublin?

I love your thought process here, it pretty much amounts to 'Sure it will be grand'.

So again, tell us all how partition could have been peacefully avoided.

Still waiting on Francie to answer that.

end of the road

Edgware wrote: »

Not in the 90s. Get your facts right

it was in name.
i believe it took until the GFA to force the official ending of it.

FrancieBrady

end of the road wrote: »

it was in name.
i believe it took until the GFA to force the official ending of it.

For 20 years after it, people were still being denied their rights on the basis of religious bigotry and cultural supremacy.

fundi

end of the road wrote: »

it was in name.
i believe it took until the GFA to force the official ending of it.

You believe wrong.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

* I never said anything about 'partition being peacefully avoided' by the way. .

So you essentially admit, through all your bluster that a partition was pretty much inevitable.

The Unioninsts were already armed with 25,000 rifles and were 100,000 members strong.
These are the facts of the matter.

So, tell us oh great sage, how would you force these people to stand down and accept an all-ireland republic in 1920?

Zebra3

fundi wrote: »

I was not thinking much of the Germans in WW2 when it came to Empire, although it is noteworthy that the UK did a lot more to end that than we did. When it came to European Empires, I was thinking more of Spain, France, Belgium, Denmark, Italy, in fact all of the European countries had them inc Germany before WW2.

Don't dodge the question, answer it.

cameramonkey

Edgware wrote: »

Ever heard of Sunningdale, Housing executive etc all in 1970s. Brought down by the Loyalists aided and abetted by the Provo murder gangs

Rubbish you have no idea what you are talking about, Sunningdale was destroyed by Loyalist terror gangs and the UK government refusing to confront them. The IRA had little or no input into that one.

markodaly

buried wrote: »

You should look at the figures for everything including emigration during the 19th century if you want to see some really poor administration.

Oh for sure, especially in regards the Famine.

But this is the issue I have with the narrative that we blame the Brits for everything including the weather.

Do people honestly think things would be that much different, if say we ruled ourselves, or if the Spanish or French ruled us instead?

We have 100 years of the 'Free State/Republic' to look upon as a comparision and we were still piss poor, with massive emigration, never mind the dead babies in sewers and tens of thousands women locked up in institutions. Not exactly a great record.

We were for a time the most incarcerted population in Europe, behind the USSR. Think about that for a bit.

It has really been only the past 25 years, on the back of Globalisation and the EU, things the likes of SF and their ilk are dead fast against that Ireland has been able to stand up straight and be counted.