RIC and DMP to be commemorated this month

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

So you essentially admit, through all your bluster that a partition was pretty much inevitable.

The Unioninsts were already armed with 25,000 rifles and were 100,000 members strong.
These are the facts of the matter.

So, tell us oh great sage, how would you force these people to stand down and accept an all-ireland republic in 1920?

The same way the rebellion in Dublin was put down. Britain never stood up to them, but sent ships up the Liffey to blow Dublin to smithereens when nationalists threatened it.

Here was a private militia threatening Britain in 1913 and they folded the tent and gave them what they wanted.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Oh for sure, especially in regards the Famine.

But this is the issue I have with the narrative that we blame the Brits for everything including the weather.

In are no longer in AH, can you stop lying about what is being said?

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Oh for sure, especially in regards the Famine.

But this is the issue I have with the narrative that we blame the Brits for everything including the weather.

Do people honestly think things would be that much different, if say we ruled ourselves, or if the Spanish or French ruled us instead?

We have 100 years of the 'Free State/Republic' to look upon as a comparision and we were still piss poor, with massive emigration, never mind the dead babies in sewers and tens of thousands women locked up in institutions. Not exactly a great record.

We were for a time the most incarcerted population in Europe, behind the USSR. Think about that for a bit.

It has really been only the past 25 years, on the back of Globalisation and the EU, things the likes of SF and their ilk are dead fast against that Ireland has been able to stand up straight and be counted.

Well, can you show anywhere that came out of 800 of suppression and exploitation of resources and immediately prospered?

Nobody is blaming Britain for everything but there were ramifications of their presence and the mess they left behind.

marieholmfan

cameramonkey wrote: »

Rubbish you have no idea what you are talking about, Sunningdale was destroyed by Loyalist terror gangs and the UK government refusing to confront them. The IRA had little or no input into that one.

Edgware hadn't heard of the Ulster Worker's Council until yesterday.
You're wasting your time engaging with him.

buried

markodaly wrote: »

Oh for sure, especially in regards the Famine.

But this is the issue I have with the narrative that we blame the Brits for everything including the weather.

Do people honestly think things would be that much different, if say we ruled ourselves, or if the Spanish or French ruled us instead?

See this is where your noise falls flat on its own f**king arse. You honestly believe or even choose to believe that if the potato crop failed to grow while we ruled ourselves that we would have turfed the victims of it out of their own homes onto the road and ditches to die, a job actually administered by the RIC.
Your revixionist bull$hit is at appalling levels here man.

But not surprising. If you were a Cambodian you'd probably give the f**king Khmer Rouge a pass judging from your own self loathing.

fundi

FrancieBrady wrote: »

and the mess they left behind.

No mess they left behind. They even left the snooker tables set up to play in their barracks when they evacuated them.

If you want to see a mess, look in the sewers in Ireland where babies were buried a few decades later, and the institutions where tens of thousands were kept. And the many people forced to leave the country.

FrancieBrady

fundi wrote: »

No mess they left behind. They even left the snooker tables set up to play in their barracks when they evacuated them.

If you want to see a mess, look in the sewers in Ireland where babies were buried a few decades later, and the institutions where tens of thousands were kept. And the many people forced to leave the country.

And of course no state or religious group ever did anything bad anywhere else.
Nobody said it was Nirvana. The new state had all the problems other places had, including Britain itself, and Ireland had other problems associated with it's colonial past and birth to deal with as well.

Unlike the people who asked the nation to ignore the actions of the RIC/DMP Black and Tans we are very aware of how we failed people.

There would be no point ignoring it because it would be a lie. I'm sure CHarlie Flanagan is reflecting on that as he fights for his seat.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The same way the rebellion in Dublin was put down. Britain never stood up to them, but sent ships up the Liffey to blow Dublin to smithereens when nationalists threatened it.

You are equating the Easter Rebellion where about 2,000 irish volunteers took part to something that the Free State could have easily have put down, against a force of about 100,000.

The Free State to my knowledge didnt have gun boats either....

So again, essentially it would have been 'Just grand'.

Although I do love your hypocrisy. :P:P:P

Here was a private militia threatening Britain in 1913 and they folded the tent and gave them what they wanted.

In fairness, isnt that what the past 100 years of Irish history is?
From the Ulster Volunteers, the Irish Volunteers, to the IRA to the Provos....
Each one threatening and using violence to achive a political aim. Its OK when your side does it but when the other side does it you call foul.

Deliciously hilarious.

markodaly

buried wrote: »

See this is where your noise falls flat on its own f**king arse. You honestly believe or even choose to believe that if the potato crop failed to grow while we ruled ourselves that we would have turfed the victims of it out of their own homes onto the road and ditches to die, a job actually administered by the RIC.
Your revixionist bull$hit is at appalling levels here man.

No, I am questioning the narrative that if it werent for the British, Irish society would be prosperous, classes and free.
The last 100 years has shown us this to be a lie.

Some 'Irish' form of the RIC would have existed in the 19th centuary and they would be doing the same thing as other police forces of the time were doing all across Europe. Maintaining the status quo for the powerful and Irish landowners.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

You are equating the Easter Rebellion where about 2,000 irish volunteers took part to something that the Free State could have easily have put down, against a force of about 100,000.

The Free State to my knowledge didnt have gun boats either....

So again, essentially it would have been 'Just grand'.

Although I do love your hypocrisy. :P:P:P



In fairness, isnt that what the past 100 years of Irish history is?
From the Ulster Volunteers, the Irish Volunteers, to the IRA to the Provos....
Each one threatening and using violence to achive a political aim. Its OK when your side does it but when the other side does it you call foul.

Deliciously hilarious.

What would have happened though Mark, had the dear old British behaved like the honest brokers they should have been and put down the group that brought the gun back into Irish politics?

If Carson and Bonar Law and Craig had gotten a taste of the old gunboats up the Lagan?

They British never talk to 'terrorists'?
What was that about delicious hilarity?

buried

markodaly wrote: »

No, I am questioning the narrative that if it werent for the British, Irish society would be prosperous, classes and free.
The last 100 years has shown us this to be a lie.

Some 'Irish' form of the RIC would have existed in the 19th centuary and they would be doing the same thing as other police forces of the time were doing all across Europe. Maintaining the status quo for the powerful and Irish landowners.

Why do you put so much stock into the last 100 years when the previous 700 years was the instigation and genesis of the entire f**king $hitshow?
How can you not see that?
The last 100 years you so much want to crib about was the end result of the absolute f**king mess the crew across the Irish sea presented us with in the previous centuries beforehand.
Its like modern brexiteers blaming the EU for all the calamities of their former glorious nation when in actual fact the calamities all had their genesis from Westminster back in the late 70's.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What would have happened though Mark, had the dear old British behaved like the honest brokers they should have been and put down the group that brought the gun back into Irish politics?

If Carson and Bonar Law and Craig had gotten a taste of the old gunboats up the Lagan?

This is hilarious.:p

You decry the British for their use of force against the Irish Volunteers, yet wanted them to use violence and force against the Ulster Volunteers.

Delicious!:pac::D:)

Still, though you have not answered my question with anything other than fantasy land stuff. You are floundering, badly at that.

markodaly

buried wrote: »

Why do you put so much stock into the last 100 years when the previous 700 years was the instigation and genesis of the entire f**king $hitshow?

Because the last 100 years, we have been independant. It should be an observable fact that we can rightly draw on 100 years of experience and compare it to what went on before.

The last 100 years you so much want to crib about was the end result of the absolute f**king mess the crew across the Irish sea presented us with in the previous centuries beforehand.

Eh? Really?

Sure, Corrupts leaders like Betie 'I won it on the horses' Ahern and Charlie 'I own an Island' Haughey are really the fault of da Brits! :D

The Brits didnt lock up 50,000 Irish women for the crime of having sex, we the Irish people did that.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

This is hilarious.:p

You decry the British for their use of force against the Irish Volunteers, yet wanted them to use violence and force against the Ulster Volunteers.

Delicious!:pac::D:)

Still, though you have not answered my question with anything other than fantasy land stuff. You are floundering, badly at that.

We are dealing in 'what if's', it is otherwise know not as fantasy but using you imagination. And you are just running away from answering or engaging with t them. The only 'what if' that matters to you and the Charlie Flanagan's, John Bruton's fundl's etc is 'what if we had just been good little suppressed children and stayed in the wonderful Union'.

We have you guys figured out. It is your unfulfilled fantasy.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Because the last 100 years, we have been independant. It should be an observable fact that we can rightly draw on 100 years of experience and compare it to what went on before.





Eh? Really?

Sure, Corrupts leaders like Betie 'I won it on the horses' Ahern and Charlie 'I own an Island' Haughey are really the fault of da Brits! :D

The Brits didnt lock up 50,000 Irish women for the crime of having sex, we the Irish people did that.

Again, it is as if no other country had corrupt leaders. Or failed it's people.

Ridiculous trying to debate with such a self denigrating personality. Thankfully as we have seen it isn't all that common.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We are dealing in 'what if's', it is otherwise know not as fantasy but using you imagination. And you are just running away from answering or engaging with t them. .

So in other words, you do not have a clue.

So, I will go back to my premise.
Parition of this Island was inevitable.

You seem to think that
a) the British Army should have waged war against the Ulster Volunteers in 1912
or
b) the Free State could have easily put it down in 1918-1923

Both your solutions would have resulted in huge numbers of casualties, for both sides and without anything gauranteeing success. In fact history shows us, via the IRA of old, that the Ulster Volunteers would have won that war, against either the BA or the Free State, as they were better armed than the IRA and most importantly highly highly motivated.

Edgware

marieholmfan wrote: »

Edgware hadn't heard of the Ulster Worker's Council until yesterday.
You're wasting your time engaging with him.

I will leave you two gombeens to try outdo each other in the blinkered interpretation of history

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Again, it is as if no other country had corrupt leaders. Or failed it's people.

Bingo, Irish leaders failed it people.

So why do people assume that 19th century Irish leaders would not have failed its people, if it were independant?

jmcc

markodaly wrote: »

Bingo, Irish leaders failed it people.

So why do people assume that 19th century Irish leaders would not have failed its people, if it were independant?

It might be a bit difficult for a neo-Unionist like you to understand, but Irish leaders would not have exported Irish food under armed guard of the RIC while Irish people starved to death.

Regards...jmcc

markodaly

jmcc wrote: »

It might be a bit difficult for a neo-Unionist like you to understand, but Irish leaders would not have exported Irish food under armed guard of the RIC while Irish people starved to death.

Regards...jmcc

What makes you think that? The RIC were predominately Irish Catholic, were they not?

jmcc

markodaly wrote: »

What makes you think that? The RIC were predominately Irish Catholic, were they not?

The RIC guarded food being exported from Ireland during the Famine while Irish people starved and died. They evicted Irish people from their homes on the orders of genocidal, sociopathic scumbags who wanted to eradicate the Irish people from Ireland. Those are the people you support.

Regards...jmcc

facehugger99

markodaly wrote: »

Eh? Really?

Sure, Corrupts leaders like Betie 'I won it on the horses' Ahern and Charlie 'I own an Island' Haughey are really the fault of da Brits! :D

The Brits didnt lock up 50,000 Irish women for the crime of having sex, we the Irish people did that.

If half the lads on the thread **** themselves tomorrow, they'd find a way to blame it on the Brits.

fundi

In 1847, the height of the famine, more food was imported than exported. If we had a Haughey or Ahern as leader, I bet things would have been an awful lot worse.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

So in other words, you do not have a clue.

So, I will go back to my premise.
Parition of this Island was inevitable.

You seem to think that
a) the British Army should have waged war against the Ulster Volunteers in 1912
or
b) the Free State could have easily put it down in 1918-1923

Neither do you 'have a clue'

Partition was NOT inevitable had the British treated both populations equally.

Both your solutions would have resulted in huge numbers of casualties, for both sides and without anything gauranteeing success. In fact history shows us, via the IRA of old, that the Ulster Volunteers would have won that war, against either the BA or the Free State, as they were better armed than the IRA and most importantly highly highly motivated.

What actually happened resulted in huge numbers of casualties and is far far from a success, even today. In fact it has completely destroyed and hampered what Britain wishes to do and is and will pose a huge headache for us and for the EU.

And here is your own absurd reasoning. 'History shows us'...eh Mark, history shows us no such thing...the Ulster Volunteers were never actually put to the test. The British were overwhelmingly better armed than us, but we beat them - history DOES show us that. In the words of some of their own generals the IRA could never be defeated. I.E. Fighting a force in their own backyard in unconventional ways is never easy and the outcome would never be certain. The Americans found the same thing out in Vietnam. So there is nothing that can be said conclusively there, no matter what you say

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

What makes you think that? The RIC were predominately Irish Catholic, were they not?

The Gestapo and SS were entirely German.

What is your point here? We know that there were those prepared to work for and do the bidding of the British, throughout our history. I feel for families who are trying to vindicate them, I really do. But the facts do not lie.
They need to accept the fact.

marieholmfan

markodaly wrote: »

No, I am questioning the narrative that if it werent for the British, Irish society would be prosperous, classes and free.
The last 100 years has shown us this to be a lie.

Some 'Irish' form of the RIC would have existed in the 19th centuary and they would be doing the same thing as other police forces of the time were doing all across Europe. Maintaining the status quo for the powerful and Irish landowners.

Prussia was also dependent on the Potato at the time and the blight caused great hardship there .
It did not cause mass starvation.

marieholmfan

Edgware wrote: »

I will leave you two gombeens to try outdo each other in the blinkered interpretation of history

Edgware you should avoid any interpretation of history until you learn a bit about the Ulster Workers Council.

weldoninhio

Bishop of hope wrote: »

It's amazing that when they went to these countries they could be treated as equals in most of them, but at home they were trampled over.
Our nations exported people have produced some of the most powerful people in history.

Ah yes. No Blacks, No Dogs, No Irish. So equal, inclusive and non-racist.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Partition was NOT inevitable had the British treated both populations equally.

More deliciousness.

You mean the British, who sued for peace with the Irish Volunteers, would have beaten the Ulster volunteers...

Do square that circle for me Francie.

And here is your own absurd reasoning. 'History shows us'...eh Mark, history shows us no such thing...the Ulster Volunteers were never actually put to the test.

Yes, I am sure they would be easily beaten in 1918 or onwards. :P Given that many of them were ex British Army personal, battle-hardened from years of war, nevermind better armed than the Irish volunteers of the time.

The British were overwhelmingly better armed than us, but we beat them - history DOES show us that. In the words of some of their own generals the IRA could never be defeated. I.E. Fighting a force in their own backyard in unconventional ways is never easy and the outcome would never be certain.

You are proving my point. The Free State Army or the British Army would not have beaten the Ulster Volunteers. So with that in mind, how does one avoid partition?

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The Gestapo and SS were entirely German.

What is your point here?

Again, you proved it for me.

Irish leaders have failed its people, so why do people automatically assume that if we have Irish leaders in an independent 19th-century state that the state of affairs would have been vastly better?

Blind hope?