Ulster vs Munster, Fri 3 Jan, 7:35pm, Eir

Akrasia

Bridge93 wrote: »

How long can the ‘new system’ excuse be rolled out for?

Daly been far and away Munsters best player. Carbery gone ok with little to work with. Ulster look a very decent side. Building nicely. Hopefully they give clermont a proper crack

The new system will take a year to develop into something cohesive. South Africa were terrible, a laughing stock, and then they won some big games but were inconsistent, and then they were world champions all within about 2 years

Akrasia

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Pretty disastrous result to set Munster up ahead of a massive game next week.

DOC and Fla seem to be absolutely fuming in the studio.

We’re giving racing a false sense of security

This is all part of the Schmidtesq master plan

Faugheen

Tommy Bowe making the point how McFarland doesn’t seem to be struggling to implement his systems.

Van Graan has had around a year on McFarland and looks like he hasn’t gotten anywhere. Questions should have been asked about him last year but the finger was pointed to Jones. Now they look no better especially when they’re at full stock (as Clegg pointed out).

Bazzo

Akrasia wrote: »

He deserved the yellow for doing something that was barely even a penalty never mind a yellow card offense? Nice logic there

Lol

mogwai81

I was pleasantly surprised by Shane Daly's defence tonight. He has always looked dangerous with ball in hand, but he also made some great one on one tackles!

Granny15

Burkie1203 wrote: »

On POM

6 carries for 3 metres
Given away 2 pens
4 tackles
His leadership when hisbteam were getting spanked was standing around hands on hips.

He should not be in the Irish 23 on current form.

He comes up with big moments in big games. England line out steal NZ tracking back for grubbed kick and gathering. There have been numerous more. He turns it on in very big matches and delivers when it counts. Not many can say that

troyzer

Granny15 wrote: »

He comes up with big moments in big games. England line out steal NZ tracking back for grubbed kick and gathering. There have been numerous more. He turns it on in very big matches and delivers when it counts. Not many can say that

Both were over a year ago.

POM was never a productive backrow which was unusual but he got away with it because of his ability to break games open. He doesn't do that anymore. He's just an empty shirt hovering around doing **** all.

He's still capable of a big game, I thought he was our best player in the quarter final. But he's not even our second best option at six at the moment for me.

Burkie1203

Granny15 wrote: »

He comes up with big moments in big games. England line out steal NZ tracking back for grubbed kick and gathering. There have been numerous more. He turns it on in very big matches and delivers when it counts. Not many can say that

That was in 2017 and 2018. Its 20fcuking20 now. He has been crap. His team, that he is captaining got their asses handed to them on a plate tonight and all he could do was stand around with his hands on hips.

Sorry but he should not be anywhere near the Irish 23 in the 6n based on his form currently. Hopefully AF learns from Schmidt's mistaken attempts to play Murray back into form last year and puts a team on the park who are in form.

Faugheen

Granny15 wrote: »

He comes up with big moments in big games. England line out steal NZ tracking back for grubbed kick and gathering. There have been numerous more. He turns it on in very big matches and delivers when it counts. Not many can say that

Like in the RWC quarter final when he gave away the most ridiculous penalty when we finally had a shot at the NZ line before half time?

That NZ game was well over a year ago. When the going gets tough he goes missing. I said it after the Wales game in the 6N and I was laughed at. Many more are seeing the light now.

If you think that was a ‘solid’ performance then Ireland deserve to be perennial losers.

Clegg

As far as first hit outs go Carbery's couldn't have gone much worse. It's very hard to play behind a pack that's getting pummelled, but there were times when Munster had front foot ball and he continuously made the wrong decisions. He loved playing that short pop to a forward or 12 on the crash, but it never got them over the gain line. Pretty sure he also ignored teammates in space out wide just so he could play that pop pass.

I firmly believe he has the ability to be a quality 10.But he's running out of time to show he's good enough to be in the 23 for the Six Nations. And if this is how Munster are going to play in the big games he's simply at the wrong club.

razorblunt

Granny15 wrote: »

He comes up with big moments in big games. England line out steal NZ tracking back for grubbed kick and gathering. There have been numerous more. He turns it on in very big matches and delivers when it counts. Not many can say that

You can’t just rely on “big moments”, Schmidt and Ireland talked that kind of ****e before the QF too, the odds on out of form players all having that, at the same time? No chance.


It should put be taboo to say guys like POM and Murray are not the great players they once were, they’re on the decline.
POM and Munster now remind me of Gerrard and Liverpool in the last few seasons and I say that as a Munster and Liverpool fan!!

AlfaZen

All this POM bashing sounds like the bashing Heaslip got from the other provinces 5/6 years ago.
I just want Farrell to pick a young squad from the get go and build on it for next 4 years. I don’t care where these players are from. Just look at what’s available and build the best young squad possible.
We have young capable leaders in Ryan and Ross Byrne- build the squad around them.

Granny15

Clegg wrote: »

As far as first hit outs go Carbery's couldn't have gone much worse. It's very hard to play behind a pack that's getting pummelled, but there were times when Munster had front foot ball and he continuously made the wrong decisions He loved playing that short pop to a forward or 12 on the crash, but it never got them over the gain line. Pretty sure he also ignored teammates in space out wide just songs could play that pop pass.

I firmly believe he has the ability to be a quality 10.But he's running out of time to show he's good enough to be in the 23 for the Six Nations. And if this is how Munster are going to play in the big games he's simply at the wrong club.

Carbery commits defenders. Ross Byrne doesn’t. He also has the ability to break the line and score because he has pace. Ross Byrne doesn’t. When you get through the phases that tells when you come up against tired props out in the back line. Enough said

typhoony

Granny15 wrote: »

Carbery commits defenders. Ross Byrne doesn’t. He also has the ability to break the line and score because he has pace. Ross Byrne doesn’t. When you get through the phases that tells when you come up against tired props out in the back line. Enough said

not sure on stats but Ross Byrne seems to have added line-breaks to his game in the last 12 months

Dave_The_Sheep

Was Ross Byrne playing tonight or something?

Squidgy Black

All of this talk about POM and Carbery/Byrne is just taking away from the real point at hand.

Balacoune can tackle.

Clegg

Earls has quietly gone about being a bit poo since before the World Cup. Need to start rethinking certain nailed on positions for red and green maybe.

Faugheen

Clegg wrote: »

Earls has quietly gone about being a bit poo since before the World Cup. Need to start rethinking certain nailed on positions for red and green maybe.

A strong performance from Dave Kearney tomorrow and the suggestion of him being in the team doesn’t look so ridiculous. Stockdale played well and Conway also in form despite being fairly quiet tonight.

thomond2006

Clegg wrote: »

Earls has quietly gone about being a bit poo since before the World Cup. Need to start rethinking certain nailed on positions for red and green maybe.

I wonder how fit he is. He played through injury in Japan.

shootermacg

Clegg wrote: »

Earls has quietly gone about being a bit poo since before the World Cup. Need to start rethinking certain nailed on positions for red and green maybe.

Sorry to say it, but I agree. He's been very poor in defense.

Clegg

Munster also need a proper 7. JOD isn't one and neither is POM. Both could.be useful as a secondary spoiler, but neither can slow the ball down to any great level.

awec

As an Ulster fan, I am pretty delighted with that in all aspects bar the lineout, which needs to be addressed urgently. We are fortunate that our lineout was so bad, yet we won so comfortably. A real terrible indictment on Munster.

The pack ate Munster up which was great to see. Liked seeing Rea get in amongst it in the second half making a pest of himself. McCloskey was McCloskey, Munster had no answer whatsoever to him. Even Timoney, a player a fear is a bit underpowered, was running rampant against that Munster pack.

Stockdale a big step up from recent performances, Balacoune defensively solid, Addison alright.

If I were a Munster fan I'd be very concerned. I've said it lots the past few years, but Munster are a very limited team. The attack is diabolical, so easy to defend against. There's no inventiveness, just the same garbage of trying to run over the top of players over and over and over again before the inevitable turnover or knock-on.

POM, Murray both anonymous and neither should be near a green jersey in the new year unless they pull a truly spectacular performance out of the hat in the next few weeks. Dave Kilcoyne is the only Munster international who can come away from that with their head held high.

Arno Botha looking every bit like a southern hemisphere reject, O'Shea is as soft as ****e, Wycherly is no second row, O'Donoghue is no more a 7 than I am, Scannell is a terrible, terrible bosh merchant at 12, Sam Arnold an empty shirt, Cloete a penalty merchant. On the upside, Shane Daly at 15 looked good, the only real bright spot.

Carbery I am really not convinced is going to turn into anything other than a decent 10. He just looks to have totally stalled. Yea ok tonight was his first start in ages but there was some mind numbing rubbish out there.

redved

Akrasia wrote: »

The new system will take a year to develop into something cohesive. South Africa were terrible, a laughing stock, and then they won some big games but were inconsistent, and then they were world champions all within about 2 years

I'm not convinced that JVG is at the same level as Rassie

prawnsambo

This game was billed as Murray v Cooney. On tonight's showing, Cooney won hands down. He played like he meant it, whereas Murray looked like he was phoning it in. Murray wasn't helped by a powder puff pack that got swallowed up by their Ulster counterparts, but it stopped being a contest after twenty minutes. Not often you can say that when it's Ulster and Munster paying and it's Ulster on the credit side of the scoreboard. Great to see, but worrying from a Munster perspective. Based on their performance against Leinster, I expected better.

perrito caliente

redved wrote: »

I'm not convinced that JVG is at the same level as Rassie

Neither have proven they have much to offer in terms of their time at Munster from my perspective. I think Larkam is a great appointment though.

Didn't Balacoune let in a fairly soft Munster try at one stage? Ulster look to have a much more dynamic set of characters/abilities than Munster though.

Clegg

prawnsambo wrote: »

This game was billed as Murray v Cooney. On tonight's showing, Cooney won hands down. He played like he meant it, whereas Murray looked like he was phoning it in. Murray wasn't helped by a powder puff pack that got swallowed up by their Ulster counterparts, but it stopped being a contest after twenty minutes. Not often you can say that when it's Ulster and Munster paying and it's Ulster on the credit side of the scoreboard. Great to see, but worrying from a Munster perspective. Based on their performance against Leinster, I expected better.

They were dreadful against Leinster though. They weren't taken apart up front like this evening, but their attacking plan was shown up yet again. Could've played two hours in Leinsters 22 and still wouldn't have scored a try.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

As an Ulster fan, I am pretty delighted with that in all aspects bar the lineout...

Who are you and what have you done with awec!?

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

Who are you and what have you done with awec!?

I witnessed turnips being peeled, boiled and mashed tonight molloyjh, and it was glorious.

prawnsambo

Clegg wrote: »

They were dreadful against Leinster though. They weren't taken apart up front like this evening, but their attacking plan was shown up yet again. Could've played two hours in Leinsters 22 and still wouldn't have scored a try.

They were better defensively though. I thought they'd at least bring that to Belfast.

bilston

If our lineout had functioned properly we could have really done a number on Munster tonight. To be fair we did anyway.

Looks of really good performances, but the back row really stood out for me, particularly Reidy and Rea. I know Rea isn't exactly young young, but that was a top performance from him tonight that will have been noticed outside of Ulster. Sean Reidy is playing some of the best rugby of his career at the moment as well.

One positive for Munster was their full back. That's the first time I've seen him play, but he looks a prospect.

bilston

awec wrote: »

I witnessed turnips being peeled, boiled and mashed tonight molloyjh, and it was glorious.

It really could have been even more emphatic!

Also we ended up with a melt of a backline.

Cooney, Shanahan and Addison all had a go at 10!

Richie_Rich89

budhabob wrote: »

That's not what journey man means.

Also, middling and average mean the same thing.

Personally I really rate Scannell, but don't believe he's use to full affect by Munster.

Perhaps try googling the definition of 'journeyman'.

molloyjh

ScrubsfanChris wrote: »

Very much wrong then.

Including this, last 11 games its 6 wins 1 draw and 4 loss

Took all of 30 seconds to see that.

In total Munster have played 14 games so far this season winning 8

I hate to break it to you, but its 100% accurate.

1. Ulster (L)
2. Leinster (L)
3. Connacht (W)
4. Saracens (L)
5. Saracens (W)
6. Edinburgh (L)
7. Racing (D)

molloyjh

Just saw the Cloete incident. Card was justified IMO. He knew what he was doing and while McCloskeys landing was okay, that was purely accidental. Cloete flung him legs over waist with no control on how he'd land. Yellow was the right call.

Sinbad_NI

I agree.
At the end of the day he lifted McC up whatever way doesn't matter and didn't bring him down.
Silly and stupid but that's his own fault

Granny15

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Perhaps try googling the definition of 'journeyman'.

He was explaining to me what it was after I posted it. I used it to describe a player without thinking through that said player hadn’t moved from club to club.

thebaz

prawnsambo wrote: »

This game was billed as Murray v Cooney. On tonight's showing, Cooney won hands down. He played like he meant it, whereas Murray looked like he was phoning it in.

I remember getting shot down here by the usual experts, for suggesting Cooney was unlucky to be cut pre World cup - told he was nowhere near good eneogh for international rugby !
Murray hasnt been in form for well over a year - it happens - great to see Cooney take his chance and bounce back from such a dissapointment - Joe didnt give him a decent chance last year.

awec

If any player can feel aggrieved by Joe Schmidt it is John Cooney.

He has made any critics or doubters look like tits. Absolutely top form.

Granny15

You should have seen Flannerys defence of Murray before the game. Said he was “world class” implying Cooneys ceiling wasn’t as high. No wonder he got fired.

Murray is a box kicking scrum half granted he tried to make a few breaks early in the game tonight but he reverted to type and went back into his box kicking shell for around 60 mins after that.

It’s true to say Munster backs lack cutting but I think it’s a selfish trait to take all that ball away from the rest of the back line game after game. It’s like the selfish kid showing off his skills without regard for the rest of the team.

The tactic worked for the Grand Slam but stopped working after teams figured out how to play Ireland/Munster. He continues to do it outside the 22 and it’s a dead end tactic and selfish

I think it’s a bit of a chicken and egg situation. I don’t think it’s symptomatic of Munsters lack of invention I believe it is one of the causes of Munsters lack of inventiveness. Reverting to one dead end tactic without showing belief in his teammates

Paul Smeenus

Squidgy Black wrote: »

All of this talk about POM and Carbery/Byrne is just taking away from the real point at hand.

Balacoune can tackle.

Former former says no, so I don't know what to believe.

Former Former

awec wrote: »

If any player can feel aggrieved by Joe Schmidt it is John Cooney.

He has made any critics or doubters look like tits. Absolutely top form.

Not really.

Like, he has quite literally never played like this in his life before. I don't know if it's the current Ulster coach, the freedom he's been given, maybe he just loves Belfast, whatever, but this isn't the John Cooney we've known for the last six or seven years.

If he'd played like this last season, things would have been different.

It's great to see, especially if Murray doesn't look to be coming back to form in any great hurry.

Paul Smeenus

Former Former wrote: »

Not really.

Like, he has quite literally never played like this in his life before. I don't know if it's the current Ulster coach, the freedom he's been given, maybe he just loves Belfast, whatever, but this isn't the John Cooney we've known for the last six or seven years.

If he'd played like this last season, things would have been different.

It's great to see, especially if Murray doesn't look to be coming back to form in any great hurry.

He quite literally played under this coach the whole of last season and was brilliant.

awec

Former Former wrote: »

Not really.

Like, he has quite literally never played like this in his life before. I don't know if it's the current Ulster coach, the freedom he's been given, maybe he just loves Belfast, whatever, but this isn't the John Cooney we've known for the last six or seven years.

If he'd played like this last season, things would have been different.

It's great to see, especially if Murray doesn't look to be coming back to form in any great hurry.

Former Former, my old mucker, he was just as good last year. That's the great conundrum.

The Cooney of today is the Cooney of last year, but for whatever reason the Ireland coach had the blinkers on. Of course, I'm not bleating about it, the past is the past and we can't change the past, hakuna matata and all that, but he has responded to being overlooked by continuing where he left off and a few people look foolish for it, Joe Schmidt being one person.

I can guarantee you Joe Schmidt is sitting in his Winnibego right now, watching highlights of this match, thinking "Joe, why didn't you pick this chap at all during 2019?".

Paul Smeenus

Former Former is BRILLIANT at assessing Ulster backs. Never fails.

awec

awec wrote: »

Former Former, my old mucker, he was just as good last year. That's the great conundrum.

The Cooney of today is the Cooney of last year, but for whatever reason the Ireland coach had the blinkers on. Of course, I'm not bleating about it, the past is the past and we can't change the past, hakuna matata and all that, but he has responded to being overlooked by continuing where he left off and a few people look foolish for it, Joe Schmidt being one person.

I can guarantee you Joe Schmidt is sitting in his Winnibego right now, watching highlights of this match, thinking "Joe, why didn't you pick this chap at all during 2019?".

Maybe Cooney isn't playing any better than last year but his pack certainly is and that consistent platform is allowing him to showcase a lot of what he's learned and developed in recent seasons.

Consequently Murray has the opposite problem.

Those of you paying particularly close attention will notice that I did not once mention Peter O'Mahony.

Former Former

awec wrote: »

Former Former, my old mucker, he was just as good last year. That's the great conundrum.

The Cooney of today is the Cooney of last year, but for whatever reason the Ireland coach had the blinkers on. Of course, I'm not bleating about it, the past is the past and we can't change the past, hakuna matata and all that, but he has responded to being overlooked by continuing where he left off and a few people look foolish for it, Joe Schmidt being one person.

I can guarantee you Joe Schmidt is sitting in his Winnibego right now, watching highlights of this match, thinking "Joe, why didn't you pick this chap at all during 2019?".

Well not really. Like, he's scoring tries for fun this season. He has eight at the half-way point, he got three in the whole of last season. So there's an angle to his game at the moment that just wasn't there before.

When he got cut from the RWC training squad, very few people were saying that he should be going ahead of Marmion or McGrath on the basis of his SH ability, the thought was that his versatility and goal-kicking would be an asset in Japan. Maybe that was correct, but no-one was saying he was the form SH and had to travel on that basis.

Dubinusa

Can anyone post it? I would love to see the pashun!

Former Former

Former Former wrote: »

Well not really. Like, he's scoring tries for fun this season. He has eight at the half-way point, he got three in the whole of last season. So there's an angle to his game at the moment that just wasn't there before.

When he got cut from the RWC training squad, very few people were saying that he should be going ahead of Marmion or McGrath on the basis of his SH ability, the thought was that his versatility and goal-kicking would be an asset in Japan. Maybe that was correct, but no-one was saying he was the form SH and had to travel on that basis.

There was absolutely loads of commentary on the fact Cooney had been excluded. What are you talking about? In the media, on forums etc. Plenty.

And I also don't think people are expecting him to dribble down the wing to score a match winning try against England in the 6N this year. His passing/decision making/kicking are all much the same as they were last season.

awec

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Former Former is BRILLIANT at assessing Ulster backs. Never fails.

tone it down please, play the ball not the man.

Former Former

Evie Icy Teenager wrote: »

There was absolutely loads of commentary on the fact Cooney had been excluded. What are you talking about? In the media, on forums etc. Plenty.

That's correct. You just need to read what I said a bit more closely.