Toxic Masculinity harming MEN

Wibbs

Skippyme wrote: »

It is well framed isn't it; it should be put on a plaque as the dumbest comment of the whole debate - a beacon for a dumbed-down explanation of the ' toxic ' element of ' toxic masculinity '.

And yet again, you completely miss or avoid the actual points raised. The lack of awareness is genuinely staggering.

Though as is also common with such dug in like a tick worldviews they tend to up reminding one of a one trick pony with a blind and deaf jockey holding the reins.

Skippyme

Calhoun wrote: »

No to being on the side of men. Also if you inferred anything from my post on feminism and your place in the world that is on you.

... Hmmm, wonder where I possibly got the " wrong impression "

Silentcorner wrote: »

...Toxic Masculinity is the language of the Radical Feminist, just because the term has been normalised doesn't mean a person should take it seriously.

Silentcorner wrote: »

...The term Toxic Masculinity has been around a few decades, normally consigned to the fringe radical feminists or limp wristed self help movements...if either of those is your bag have at it.

silverharp wrote: »

...I hate to break it to you but the male feminist dream that you can be a house husband to an up and coming professional woman on the rise is a fantasy. woman are far more judgemental about men then men are about each other.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The number of women killing themselves in the UK has hit its highest level in a decade, while the male suicide rate has fallen, according to new official statistics.

MEN ARE AT HIGH RISK INTERNATIONALLY DUE TO TROUBLE SPEAKING ARTICULATELY AND OPENLY ... THEY GROW UP UNABLE TO DEAL WITH THE REALITY OF SEEKING SUPPORT AND BEING ABLE TO COMMUNICATE

Wibbs wrote: »

...It's a "recognised term" in third wave feminism and has leaked into the wider narrative and yet another stick to beat men/masculinity/the "patriarchy" with. Oddly enough suicide rates among men have been going steadily up since the days of "toxic masculinity" and the "stiff upper lip"...
Hell, one can barely watch the telly, listen to the radio, read the interwebs without coming across some man or other talking about their feelings, while usually peddling the same feminist "toxic masculinity" bullsh1t.

Wibbs wrote: »

It reads like a set of cliches of men from the unabridged and nuttier Feminist Handbook(TM). As if they(I suspect she) don't know any men, or know them only by some remove.

Sleepy wrote: »

You've allowed third wave feminists to indoctrinate you into their "women victims, men villains" bullshit and have internalised their misandry along with their language.

the_syco wrote: »

Sounds like feminist crap.

Sleepy wrote: »

My point is that you're adopting the language of feminism

Sleepy wrote: »

You didn't invent the phrase "toxic masculinity", nor pick it up from other (non feminist indoctrinated) men. You adopted it from a group whose sole purpose is to identify men as the perpetrators of every problem a woman could possibly face ..

One eyed Jack wrote: »

...Your whole rhetoric sounds like a weird mish mash of feminist and PUA theories - it’s completely disjointed nonsense

Wibbs wrote: »

...well it seems only the "feminist" angle on it

Skippyme wrote: »

Feminists may focus more on male chauvinism than on toxic masculinity affecting men themselves, perhaps?

I keep saying women and feminism don't feature except in the case of male chauvinism. I kept steering to try to focus on men, their behaviour and interaction with other men.

One eyed Jack

Skippyme wrote: »

MEN ARE AT HIGH RISK INTERNATIONALLY DUE TO TROUBLE SPEAKING ARTICULATELY AND OPENLY ... THEY GROW UP UNABLE TO DEAL WITH THE REALITY OF SEEKING SUPPORT AND BEING ABLE TO COMMUNICATE.

Apart from your own obvious difficulties with communication, it’s speculative and one might even say convenient for you to have come to the conclusion that men grow up unable to deal with the reality of seeking support and being able to communicate. Men are generally perfectly capable of articulating themselves openly in an attempt to be understood. You aren’t yet prepared to listen.

You appear to be unwilling to understand the concept that in just the same way as I pointed out in the beginning of the thread that it was like you were speaking a different language, you’re not prepared to attempt to understand people who don’t speak your language. Effective communication goes both ways. That’s why you’re getting nowhere.

Skippyme wrote: »

I keep saying women and feminism don't feature except in the case of male chauvinism. I kept steering to try to focus on men, their behaviour and interaction with other men.

How’s your own interactions with other men working out so far? If the majority of your interactions with other men have been negative, do you think that’s something you might wish to examine before you start writing off other men as cavemen and purveyors of toxic masculinity? If that’s your idea of supporting men, I’m relieved I don’t have to rely on your support for anything.

Ironicname

I'll say it so.

Skippy. The persona you portray online (which I presume is either a cry for help or a wind up) is odious. You, and people like you, are evidence of toxic masculinity. You don't like masculine men. Because you aren't one.

That's ok though. Nobody expects you to be. It just means you aren't going to get the benefits that come with being a masculine man.

Gay men get very little vagina. That's ok. Because their gay. It doesn't mean that all men need to stop ****ing women so they feel included.

People who are good at running shouldnt be expected to slow down so slower people don't feel excluded. It's ok for slow people not to be good at being fast.

You aren't very good at feeling like what you think a man is. It's ok to not fit in. That doesn't mean that we all have to pander to your pathetic attempt to make us feel toxic.

Either realise the world isn't against you and your biggest barrier is yourself, or continue your pity party. Nobody is stopping you being yourself, the problem is the person you have become is simply unlikable, not only to others but to yourself.

Truth hurts man, but you bring it on yourself. Too many people have been too nice to you here and it's been thrown back in their face.

Aufbau

Fair play, Skippyme. You started a discussion on toxic masculinity harming men, and the lads who think they're disagreeing with you put on a textbook display of schoolyard bullying ��

Calhoun

The poor bullied soul, you got a shoulder to cry on?

Ironicname

Aufbau wrote:

Fair play, Skippyme. You started a discussion on toxic masculinity harming men, and the lads who think they're disagreeing with you put on a textbook display of schoolyard bullying

Pathetic.

People have been sympathetic up to a point.

There comes a time when telling harsh truths to someone is inevitable.

It's not bullying. It's just not capitulating to idiocy

lalababa

Just some examples of toxic masculinity from 'down my way' ,now it is as I regard a monocultural backwater, but probably no different than any of rural Ireland.
Real men don't use umbrellas. If you use or are seen with an umbrella , you will know all about it.
Real men don't wear shorts when not engaged in sporting activities.
Real men don't cry, if you cry you are having a mental breakdown.
That's just off the top of my head. There are literally hundreds of other examples and ways you are meant to behave as a 'real man' in certain situations.
Alot of it stems from a visious circle of poorly educated working class of both sexes university of hard knocks kind of gob****ery where any 'abberation' is mocked. It's also in the upper classes but to a lesser extent and mostly confined to men.
You are singled out and bullied until you conform. If you don't laugh at the mockery you are 'no craic'. If you don't return the 'digs' you are 'no craic'
My own father (and alot of his generation)could literally not say hello, can you believe that, he'd have to come up with a dig. Alot of Irish esp. men can only communicate through digs/slights/put downs.
And alot of these slights would emminate from the well of non conformity to the 'real man' ideal.

silverharp

lalababa wrote: »

Just some examples of toxic masculinity from 'down my way' ,now it is as I regard a monocultural backwater, but probably no different than any of rural Ireland.
Real men don't use umbrellas. If you use or are seen with an umbrella , you will know all about it.
Real men don't wear shorts when not engaged in sporting activities.
Real men don't cry, if you cry you are having a mental breakdown.
That's just off the top of my head. There are literally hundreds of other examples and ways you are meant to behave as a 'real man' in certain situations.
Alot of it stems from a visious circle of poorly educated working class of both sexes university of hard knocks kind of gob****ery where any 'abberation' is mocked. It's also in the upper classes but to a lesser extent and mostly confined to men.
You are singled out and bullied until you conform. If you don't laugh at the mockery you are 'no craic'. If you don't return the 'digs' you are 'no craic'
My own father (and alot of his generation)could literally not say hello, can you believe that, he'd have to come up with a dig. Alot of Irish esp. men can only communicate through digs/slights/put downs.
And alot of these slights would emminate from the well of non conformity to the 'real man' ideal.

some of that seems more like toxic Irish behaviour

Wibbs

Aufbau wrote: »

Fair play, Skippyme. You started a discussion on toxic masculinity harming men, and the lads who think they're disagreeing with you put on a textbook display of schoolyard bullying ��

I would take issue with throwing the "bullying" accusation around willy nilly. If that's bullying it's a bloody low bar for it. However a large part of the reaction is because of this:

Wibbs wrote: »

You can't really usefully debate such worldviews and the tendency for the larger group with questions is to double down often out of frustration and actually play into the worldview holder's narrative, which in turn causes them to double down. Stalemate. Again QV much of this thread.

If someone, anyone comes into a group, online or off, and comes out with a singular statement and won't discuss beyond that and even deny any difference of opinion, then the group will tend to dig their heels in, Even yep to the point of aggression. It's part of human group dynamics. As is an attachment to the status quo of the group and "outsider" opinion.

Wibbs

silverharp wrote: »

some of that seems more like toxic Irish behaviour

It's not even Irish, it's very common within small communities everywhere. The things considered socially and culturally acceptable and unacceptable tend to be written in stone and without a wider world influence and choice of social groups tend to become quite constricting. For men and women. Such pressures to conform in small communities are just as high for women. Ask any woman who grew up in such a community and they'll be only to happy to list them. Unless of course they "naturally" fitted into the acceptable behaviour side. Statistically young women are more likely to move out to more urban areas than men and a large part of that are the small town syndrome pressures.

S.G.M.

tritium wrote:

No, that’s called being an asshole. Plenty from both genders subscribe to it. The stay at home dad trope is even the regular target of “hilarious†advertising aimed directly at women in many cases

I would call that toxic masculinity as well though. It is being an asshole as it's asshole behaviour but I don't feel it's called out near enough.

Skippyme

Skippyme wrote: »

...The whole point from the start was that an average man does not exert ' toxic masculinity ' on others. The gang here seem eager to point out that they are all the manliest most normal non toxic bunch of lads, while also saying that any severe or nasty sides to them are just them being real proper men. The opinions coming forward are all displaying the consensus of follow like sheep, it's the only way - ain't we proper hard.

There seems to be a supremacy thing going on, not unlike racism.

What would you expect after this old chestnut ...

One eyed Jack wrote: »

...the responsibilities that women have, such as taking care of the men in their lives being one example that you wondered was it still a thing. It is of course.

iptba wrote: »

I saw this today The annual report for 2018 for the HSE’s National Office for Suicide Prevention has just been published. There were 352 suicides in the year, down 40 on the previous year. 282 were male, 70 were female. The full report may be read here https://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list...eport-2018.pdf

Taken from thread " Suicide and men."

tritium

lalababa wrote: »

Just some examples of toxic masculinity from 'down my way' ,now it is as I regard a monocultural backwater, but probably no different than any of rural Ireland.
Real men don't use umbrellas. If you use or are seen with an umbrella , you will know all about it.
Real men don't wear shorts when not engaged in sporting activities.
Real men don't cry, if you cry you are having a mental breakdown.
That's just off the top of my head. There are literally hundreds of other examples and ways you are meant to behave as a 'real man' in certain situations.
Alot of it stems from a visious circle of poorly educated working class of both sexes university of hard knocks kind of gob****ery where any 'abberation' is mocked. It's also in the upper classes but to a lesser extent and mostly confined to men.
You are singled out and bullied until you conform. If you don't laugh at the mockery you are 'no craic'. If you don't return the 'digs' you are 'no craic'
My own father (and alot of his generation)could literally not say hello, can you believe that, he'd have to come up with a dig. Alot of Irish esp. men can only communicate through digs/slights/put downs.
And alot of these slights would emminate from the well of non conformity to the 'real man' ideal.

No one has disputed there are a lot of social hang ups in society

No one is denying there’s gob****tery

You’ve admitted yourself it’s across both genders, so what the feck has masculinity got to do with it? If a man tells a woman she should be skinnier is that him manifesting toxic femininity by enforcing a social expectation ? Because that the direct analogy of your point

Large bottle small glass

lalababa wrote: »

Just some examples of toxic masculinity from 'down my way' ,now it is as I regard a monocultural backwater, but probably no different than any of rural Ireland.
Real men don't use umbrellas. If you use or are seen with an umbrella , you will know all about it.
Real men don't wear shorts when not engaged in sporting activities.
Real men don't cry, if you cry you are having a mental breakdown.
That's just off the top of my head. There are literally hundreds of other examples and ways you are meant to behave as a 'real man' in certain situations.
Alot of it stems from a visious circle of poorly educated working class of both sexes university of hard knocks kind of gob****ery where any 'abberation' is mocked. It's also in the upper classes but to a lesser extent and mostly confined to men.
You are singled out and bullied until you conform. If you don't laugh at the mockery you are 'no craic'. If you don't return the 'digs' you are 'no craic'
My own father (and alot of his generation)could literally not say hello, can you believe that, he'd have to come up with a dig. Alot of Irish esp. men can only communicate through digs/slights/put downs.
And alot of these slights would emminate from the well of non conformity to the 'real man' ideal.

I'm from a rural area and have never given umbrellas, non sports short wearing a single thought. I've never in 45 years heard it commented on.

I suffered a terrible personal tragedy almost 3 years ago. Lots of people I knew where really awkward around me afterwards and since. The two best and natural reactions I got were from the two roughest most "red kneck" men that you could meet.

You can apply all the stereotypes you like from rural to your class designations but it's all a load of subjective boll0x.

I do things which many consider odd,
*wear sandals all year round
*sea swim all year round
*cycle huge distances without food
*bring my toddler son out walking when dark, cold and wet

Because it's not "normal" behaviour people comment all the time. It's not remotely toxic it's just what humans do when behaviour is outside norms.

The only thought I've ever had regarding umbrellas is independent of gender; KEEP THOSE FCUKING ABOVE EYE LEVEL.

silverharp

Wibbs wrote: »

It's not even Irish, it's very common within small communities everywhere. The things considered socially and culturally acceptable and unacceptable tend to be written in stone and without a wider world influence and choice of social groups tend to become quite constricting. For men and women. Such pressures to conform in small communities are just as high for women. Ask any woman who grew up in such a community and they'll be only to happy to list them. Unless of course they "naturally" fitted into the acceptable behaviour side. Statistically young women are more likely to move out to more urban areas than men and a large part of that are the small town syndrome pressures.

For sure , generally speaking socialising people to conform to the local norms isn’t necessarily a bad thing and was a vital part coexisting when scarce resources were a matter of survival. If a factor of rural life is that there are more unattached males than females in a particular place that would lead to a certain amount of dysfunctional behaviour? much like ghetto culture in cities where more males cant get a useful foothold or build a stake in society.
Essentially all I can see toxic masculinity is, being a sulk because men have a wider bell curve of behaviour both positive and negative which is heavily biologically influenced and will not be altered by the ramblings of some gender studies “academics”

littlevillage

bcklschaps wrote: »

Speaking of changing the Topic ... can the OP please change the title of this thread to something like

So called "Toxic Masculinity" harming MEN

I second this suestion.

the term "Toxic Masculinity" is a Feminist construct used to belittle men.

No man should ever give the term acceptance by using it in anything other than a quizzical way :mad:

Skippyme

Skippyme wrote: »

Toxic Masculinity is a term reserved for men, and the way in which they mistreat and misjudge others - holding with their caveman attitudes.

It is a classification of bullying ... but it is distinct in 2 ways - (1) It only involves males involved in toxic Alpha / Macho mode and is more often against the same gender except male chauvinism etc. (2) The person doing it may not be fully aware of their toxic behaviour, though in most instances I believe there is some or indeed a total* level of awareness and intention. There is a similarity in the awareness of the approach but many may not realise or care enough about the resulting fallout.

tritium

Skippyme wrote: »

It is a classification of bullying ... but it is distinct in 2 ways - (1) It only involves males involved in toxic Alpha / Macho mode and is more often against the same gender except male chauvinism etc. (2) The person doing it may not be fully aware of their toxic behaviour, though in most instances I believe there is some or indeed a total* level of awareness and intention. There is a similarity in the awareness of the approach but many may not realise or care enough about the resulting fallout.

It’s also a get out of jail card for bad behaviour by women, by lumping certain behaviours into masculinity and hence removing any accountability when women or indeed wider society display those behaviours, as you have amply demonstrated in your contributions to the thread;

Female domestic abusers, bullies, narcissists and others all get a pass because it’s toxic “masculinity”; women doing this stuff is something different sure, and we’ll come back to it at some point in the (far distant) future. nothing to see here, it’s all about the boys don’t you know- sugar and spice here. We get to continue to pretend that men are the problem- women don’t abuse, mental health and suicide is all because “men just don’t talk or take an interest”

Frankly pathetic

Skippyme

Skippyme wrote: »

It is a classification of bullying ... but it is distinct in 2 ways - (1) It only involves males involved in toxic Alpha / Macho mode and is more often against the same gender except male chauvinism etc. (2) The person doing it may not be fully aware of their toxic behaviour, though in most instances I believe there is some or indeed a total* level of awareness and intention. There is a similarity in the awareness of the approach but many may not realise or care enough about the resulting fallout.

Skippy,

Can you not see that what you are doing at the moment is essentially bullying? You are telling vast swathes of men that they are not legitimate and because they do not include people like you in their lives, they are wrong?

You do not identify with these people. Why do you think they should change in order to conform with the way you feel is the "right" way of behaving?

Why can't you just associate yourself with like-minded people and let others live life as they see fit? Is what you are doing not exactly what you are rallying against?

What in your mind is the right way to be? To be accepting of others? But... how can that be true when you don't accept people who are different than you?

Skippyme

Discussed this as well as other aspects regarding women, chauvinism and women's evolution etc.

Skippyme wrote: »

I believe in toxic femininity but it's been hard to steer men towards the topic on our masculine side due to everybody's attempts to firstly deny all knowledge, and then counter it's existence.

It exists in a similar opposite form in reverse.

Skippyme wrote: »

You are changing topic to other bullying already given their respective sub-classifying terms

I already answered as below

See BELOW Sleepy and again what is your point ? WOMEN harming others is NOT toxic masculinity. Attacking the elderly is NOT child abuse.

Is it racist when ..
Is it homophobic when ...
Is it ageist when ...
Is it sexist when ...
Is it cyber bullying when ...
Is it socially unacceptable when ...

Skippyme

Enough said ...

Skippyme wrote: »

That's like saying shame on me for calling a racist; racist.

Isn't it bad of me to make the racist feel attacked ?

I was only calling out the end spectrum ' toxic masculinity '. I stand by that. Imagine saying what OneeyedJack had to say about women.

I've explained my point very articulately, and OneeyedJack backed me up unintentionally - yet it's ridiculously stupid how he did it.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

...the responsibilities that women have, such as taking care of the men in their lives being one example that you wondered was it still a thing. It is of course.

Wibbs and co - You are twisting and purposely clouding over the legitimate points that I brought forth. The attempts to scupper the efforts made from my side to define and debate the issue are in vain because
all it serves to do is illustrate your disingenuous sly but cack-handed effort at shelving the topic.

Wibbs

Skippyme wrote: »

Enough said ...

Oh I doubt it...

Me earlier, divining the future wrote: »

You're also following the script here too. It's extremely common in these narratives where the worldview holder tries a Hail Mary attempt to gain traction and a vain hope to shut down the debate by focussing in on one comment as the perfect example and endlessly repeating it. It helps if it's framed as sexist/racist/phobic/whatever you're having yourself.

This shows you're a) predictable as any other one track position holder and b) are not reading people's posts, or c) are but aren't self aware enough to take anything on board.

Skippyme

You just keep asking the same questions pretending it never happened ...

Skippyme wrote: »

... I addressed and responded to you with consistent detail, gave examples, countered arguments and asked open ended questions.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

...the responsibilities that women have, such as taking care of the men in their lives being one example that you wondered was it still a thing. It is of course.

Skippyme wrote: »

It is well framed isn't it; it should be put on a plaque as the dumbest comment of the whole debate - a beacon for a dumbed-down explanation of the ' toxic ' element of ' toxic masculinity '.

Ironicname

Skippy, your problem, judging by your posts, is not that you are excluded because of masculinity, toxic or otherwise.

You are excluded because you seem to be simply not a nice person to talk to.

It's that simple.

I'm probably what you would class as an alpha male. I have friends who are effeminate, friends and a family member who are gay, an acquaintance who is trans and have never had an issue with including them in my life and likewise, I'm included in theirs.

If they spoke like you, regardless of their level of masculinity, I would disassociate myself with them immediately.

You act like a perpetual victim who isn't willing to bring themself up. Instead, you want to bring everyone else down so it's level.

That will not happen and I wish you no ill will but you really need to take a long look at yourself and realise, as others have said, you are the only one who is responsible for you.

It's not your right to be accepted.

Calhoun

Wibbs wrote: »

I would take issue with throwing the "bullying" accusation around willy nilly. If that's bullying it's a bloody low bar for it. However a large part of the reaction is because of this:



If someone, anyone comes into a group, online or off, and comes out with a singular statement and won't discuss beyond that and even deny any difference of opinion, then the group will tend to dig their heels in, Even yep to the point of aggression. It's part of human group dynamics. As is an attachment to the status quo of the group and "outsider" opinion.

This is pretty much it and the attempts to shut down opposing views through accusation of bullying or toxic masculinity is ****ing disgusting.

Its the same ****e you see in echo chambers across the internet, if you cannot argue your point without resorting to cries of bullying then i think its back to twitter with you. Where i know they will welcome you with open arms.

Calhoun

Large bottle small glass wrote: »

I'm from a rural area and have never given umbrellas, non sports short wearing a single thought. I've never in 45 years heard it commented on.

I suffered a terrible personal tragedy almost 3 years ago. Lots of people I knew where really awkward around me afterwards and since. The two best and natural reactions I got were from the two roughest most "red kneck" men that you could meet.

You can apply all the stereotypes you like from rural to your class designations but it's all a load of subjective boll0x.

I do things which many consider odd,
*wear sandals all year round
*sea swim all year round
*cycle huge distances without food
*bring my toddler son out walking when dark, cold and wet

Because it's not "normal" behaviour people comment all the time. It's not remotely toxic it's just what humans do when behaviour is outside norms.

The only thought I've ever had regarding umbrellas is independent of gender; KEEP THOSE FCUKING ABOVE EYE LEVEL.

This is what has me puzzled, i also live in a rural area and have never encountered crap like this.

In actual fact i have encountered more of it in urban areas that are more deprived and that was generally more due to education.

Makes me laugh though thinking of the roving gangs of fellas on tractors looking for lads with umbrellas to beat the **** out of.

One eyed Jack

Skippyme wrote: »

What would you expect after this old chestnut ...

I would expect you to be able to articulate your problem with what I said, beyond “that’s outrageous”, etc. You appear to think there’s something inherently negative in women being responsible for taking care of the men in their lives?

Skippyme wrote: »

Taken from thread " Suicide and men."

You didn’t offer any explanation for that one either. You implied that “toxic masculinity” is responsible for male suicide, and went on to claim that women are free to show fragility, openness and compassion. I countered your argument by pointing out that the female suicide rate is rising, which directly contradicts any claim you had that women are more free to show fragility and so on.

How do you explain the rising female suicide rate if you’re suggesting at the same time that women are free to show fragility, compassion, openness and so on, yet the rate at which they are taking their own lives is rising?

Don’t come back and say you’re not talking about women, because you were.

iptba

People have probably already said similar things but I think if men started talking about examples of “toxic femininity” in a similar way many would class it as misogyny. And if women talked it, it would be said to be internalised misogyny. Men should also be on the look out for misandry.

S.G.M.

One eyed Jack wrote:

I would expect you to be able to articulate your problem with what I said, beyond “that’s outrageousâ€, etc. You appear to think there’s something inherently negative in women being responsible for taking care of the men in their lives?

Imo the high level of female suicide rates are down to them being under so much pressure to look or a act a certain way due to the rise in social media and the 'Influencer age'. The amount of female friends I have that suffer from eating disorders cos they don't like how they look. They are very open about it but it still really affects them and they have to fight through it.
I don't think a rise in female suicide rates discounts the fact that the high level of mens suicide rates is due to a society that doesn't allow men to open up and show weakness.

Wibbs

S.G.M. wrote: »

I don't think a rise in female suicide rates discounts the fact that the high level of mens suicide rates is due to a society that doesn't allow men to open up and show weakness.

Which would make more sense S if such rates were higher in the past when the pressure to be "manly" was higher and masculinity was much more restrictive and the avenues for support and modern therapies were next to non existent.

iptba

S.G.M. wrote: »

Imo the high level of female suicide rates are down to them being under so much pressure to look or a act a certain way due to the rise in social media and the 'Influencer age'. The amount of female friends I have that suffer from eating disorders cos they don't like how they look. They are very open about it but it still really affects them and they have to fight through it.
I don't think a rise in female suicide rates discounts the fact that the high level of mens suicide rates is due to a society that doesn't allow men to open up and show weakness.

So why do you think "toxic femininity" is not generally used with regard to the issues you mention women/females face?

S.G.M.

Wibbs wrote:

Which would make more sense S if such rates were higher in the past when the pressure to be "manly" was higher and masculinity was much more restrictive and the avenues for support and modern therapies were next to non existent.

I get your point but I think in this day and age everything has been ramped up. One example would be, just say an effeminate teen lad is being bullied at school by other lads. Years ago, he gets restbite when he got home from school but nowadays the onslaught never ends as it continues on social media. It's a very specific example I know, but I think you get what I mean.

iptba wrote:

So why do you think "toxic femininity" is not generally used with regard to the issues you mention women/females face?

I think that's because these issue aren't necessarily related to a woman's feminity.

Calhoun

S.G.M. wrote: »

I get your point but I think in this day and age everything has been ramped up. One example would be, just say an effeminate teen lad is being bullied at school by other lads. Years ago, he gets restbite when he got home from school but nowadays the onslaught never ends as it continues on social media. It's a very specific example I know, but I think you get what I mean.



I think that's because these issue aren't necessarily related to a woman's feminity.

Same could be said with any bullying, allot of recent case of young teen women was due to online bullying.

S.G.M.

Calhoun wrote:

Same could be said with any bullying, allot of recent case of young teen women was due to online bullying.

True and if it the bullies were claiming that a teen woman was 'too butch', I would consider that Toxic Feminity.
Bullying is gonna cause these issues whether your male or female. I used that example as one that can be related to masculinity.

iptba

S.G.M. wrote: »

So why do you think "toxic femininity" is not generally used with regard to the issues you mention women/females face?

I think that's because these issue aren't necessarily related to a woman's feminity.

This seems to contradict the point of yours I was replying to:

S.G.M. wrote: »

Imo the high level of female suicide rates are down to them being under so much pressure to look or a act a certain way due to the rise in social media and the 'Influencer age'. The amount of female friends I have that suffer from eating disorders cos they don't like how they look. They are very open about it but it still really affects them and they have to fight through it.

Calhoun

S.G.M. wrote: »

True and if it the bullies were claiming that a teen woman was 'too butch', I would consider that Toxic Feminity.
Bullying is gonna cause these issues whether your male or female. I used that example as one that can be related to masculinity.

Well i mean females are bullied for many reason that would just be one of them, there are many examples of what would be considered toxic femininity. Saying though that its the social media and how things look ect is primary reason is a bit of a cop out.

Bullying happens to both male and females and it does extend to online and it also leads to suicide. So i don't get the differentiation of why its an issue with men but not women.

There is an argument of the medias portrayal of men could also be leading to suicide.

iptba

iptba wrote: »

So why do you think "toxic femininity" is not generally used with regard to the issues you mention women/females face?

To answer my question myself:
I think it's because "toxic masculinity" points the finger at men for causing problems. That is generally seen as acceptable by feminists and the like. When problems are blamed on "patriarchy" and "patriarchal institutions", it's basically pointing the finger at men for problems.

Thus, "toxic femininity" would be pointing the finger at women for problems in society. That is far less acceptable.

S.G.M.

iptba wrote:

This seems to contradict the point of yours I was replying to:

I get why it may sound like that. I'll rephrase it. Women do have to deal with a lot of **** nowadays and some things that I feel would be considered as Toxic Femininity would be;
- Being shamed for not being feminine enough.
- Being shamed for not having children.
- Being shamed for not having a partner.
They do have to deal with a lot of this stuff so maybe Toxic Feminity should be used more often.

When I said, it wasn't 'Feminine issues', I was referring to women who struggle with maybe not being as pretty as the Instagram models or too heavy or too tall etc. Not necessarily anything to do with their femininity.
However it can definitely also be related to that.
Having said all that, that's why I think that suicide rates are on the rise for women.

S.G.M.

Calhoun wrote:

Well i mean females are bullied for many reason that would just be one of them, there are many examples of what would be considered toxic femininity. Saying though that its the social media and how things look ect is primary reason is a bit of a cop out.

I'm only using my own experience. I'm in my 20's, have a lot of female friends and work with secondary school children. The majority of issues those females have told me has nothing to do with their femininity.
Its their looks, worries about the future, their figure, of course bullying etc etc. The fact that these women and girls will open up about these things shows the feel they can.
This tells me that the higher suicide rate is down to more than femininity.
Whereas you don't get guys feeling like they can open up as easily. Of course some do but we know a lot are struggling and don't feel they can. This is why I feel it is attributed to the high suicide rate in males.
Now of course, this is just my opinion and some women feel they can't open up for whatever reason while some men feel they can.
This was all just in relation to someone saying that the high suicide rates in men aren't necessarily down to 'Toxic masculinity' which I feel they are.

S.G.M.

iptba wrote:

To answer my question myself: I think it's because "toxic masculinity" points the finger at men for causing problems. That is generally seen as acceptable by feminists and the like. When problems are blamed on "patriarchy" and "patriarchal institutions", it's basically pointing the finger at men for problems.

Men being blamed is another big issue definitely. I wouldn't consider that 'toxic masculinity' but that's just my interpretation of the term. It may be for you.

Calhoun

S.G.M. wrote: »

I'm only using my own experience. I'm in my 20's, have a lot of female friends and work with secondary school children. The majority of issues those females have told me has nothing to do with their femininity.
Its their looks, worries about the future, their figure, of course bullying etc etc. The fact that these women and girls will open up about these things shows the feel they can.
This tells me that the higher suicide rate is down to more than femininity.
Whereas you don't get guys feeling like they can open up as easily. Of course some do but we know a lot are struggling and don't feel they can. This is why I feel it is attributed to the high suicide rate in males.
Now of course, this is just my opinion and some women feel they can't open up for whatever reason while some men feel they can.
This was all just in relation to someone saying that the high suicide rates in men aren't necessarily down to 'Toxic masculinity' which I feel they are.

Hold on your basically speculating on your small experience with women saying that the interaction with other women is minor and its actually other things.

Yet for men its only the one factor of not being able to communicate with each other?

Suicide is a nuanced issue and you do it some disservice to label it as just toxic masculinity.

All of the social issues you feel that impact women that men are somehow immune to.

Silentcorner

S.G.M. wrote: »

I'm only using my own experience. I'm in my 20's, have a lot of female friends and work with secondary school children. The majority of issues those females have told me has nothing to do with their femininity.
Its their looks, worries about the future, their figure, of course bullying etc etc. The fact that these women and girls will open up about these things shows the feel they can.
This tells me that the higher suicide rate is down to more than femininity.
Whereas you don't get guys feeling like they can open up as easily. Of course some do but we know a lot are struggling and don't feel they can. This is why I feel it is attributed to the high suicide rate in males.
Now of course, this is just my opinion and some women feel they can't open up for whatever reason while some men feel they can.
This was all just in relation to someone saying that the high suicide rates in men aren't necessarily down to 'Toxic masculinity' which I feel they are.

You have a very shallow outlook.

You are a young man who is part of a generation of men who have been bombarded with incessant negative signals about their own gender from media/culture.


People are flawed...it is as simple as that...men have their flaws, women likewise, Irish people have their flaws...this toxic narrative that has infested culture/media is deliberately divisive.

We talk about men in the same way they spoke about Jews in Germany during the 30s...media turned on Jewish people and amplified a deep rooted flaw that exists in all of us where we are willing to see the worst in a gender/race/nationality.

Life is tough enough without having to deal with the infantile ideology of the Modern day Feminist.

S.G.M.

Calhoun wrote:

Yet for men its only the one factor of not being able to communicate with each other?

Suicide is a nuanced issue and you do it some disservice to label it as just toxic masculinity.

All of the social issues you feel that impact women that men are somehow immune to.

You're putting words in my mouth, I didn't say it's just toxic masculinity. I said the high rates are down to it as it's the prevailing reason. There are loads of issues that men face including getting bashed from the media as has been pointed out. However I feel that toxic masculinity really contributes to what rockets the numbers up.

S.G.M.

I get your point Silentcorner and agree with what you're saying. I know theres a lot that causes issues for men. Ive suffered with suicidal ideation, I can assure you, ive no shallow outlook.

Calhoun

S.G.M. wrote: »

You're putting words in my mouth, I didn't say it's just toxic masculinity. I said the high rates are down to it as it's the prevailing reason. There are loads of issues that men face including getting bashed from the media as has been pointed out. However I feel that toxic masculinity really contributes to what rockets the numbers up.

Your saying the main reason for male suicide is toxic masculinity. Your down playing all other areas that contribute to it and just painting a big boogey man over men. Its nearly akin to victim blaming, its like they deserved to hang themselves because they are men and its toxic masculinity.

It could be a generational thing, as i am about 10 years older than you my generation we did talk to each other when it mattered. Maybe in the past 10 years things have gotten harsher and younger generations feel they cant talk.

If i was to actually pin point some of the reasons for male suicide i would say its nuanced and down to a number of societal pressures. Number one of these is how disposable men are seen, homeless numbers, medical research ect ect

Silentcorner

S.G.M. wrote: »

I get your point Silentcorner and agree with what you're saying. I know theres a lot that causes issues for men. Ive suffered with suicidal ideation, I can assure you, ive no shallow outlook.

I beg your pardon, what I meant was a shallow outlook in regards the term we are discussing.

Lord knows I remember what it is like to be in my 20's...nothing was straight forward!!!

What I can see happening is a certain percentage of men will internalise this narrative, another percentage will ignore it...and have no doubt, a percentage will lash back.

S.G.M.

Silentcorner wrote:

I beg your pardon, what I meant was a shallow outlook in regards the term we are discussing.

I thought ya meant a shallow outlook on what causes suicide and I meant that I know full well what can cause suicide.

Skippyme

I think for ' toxic femininity ' it is a similar opposite issue in reverse. The issues are different but there may be an overlap in some aspects like the pressure element of it. The pressure is in different forms and other areas.

The reason that ' toxic masculinity ' appears more commonly in psychology and sociology is likely due to it's overbearing presence, barriers, and conformists in varying degrees. Social media does encourage men to compete on a physical level not just in terms of appearance, but also visible strength and prowess. There is more pressure to appear dominate and self assured yet maintaining an easy going effortless persona. The precedence virtually at all times favours competing rather than supporting other males, especially in male exclusive friendships. It seems more severe and even though people may not fully realise the extent / complexities involved, more people both register to it as well as register it.

Skippyme wrote: »

Feminists may focus more on male chauvinism than on toxic masculinity affecting men themselves, perhaps?

Wibbs

S.G.M. wrote: »

I get your point but I think in this day and age everything has been ramped up. One example would be, just say an effeminate teen lad is being bullied at school by other lads. Years ago, he gets restbite when he got home from school but nowadays the onslaught never ends as it continues on social media. It's a very specific example I know, but I think you get what I mean.

Oh I do and social pressures are significantly higher for teens today. Not just teens. Basically if someone is within the age range that doesn't remember the world without the interwebs they're open to it. Old farts less so, because it's generally easier for them to forget and ignore something they didn't grow up with as an addition rather than a core part of life.

On the other side of that whole social media thing is some avenues of support and information. EG that same effeminate teen lad in the 1950's wouldn't have a clue what was going on, would have no real way to find out and wouldn't have any heroes in the public mind to look up to(effeminate men being the butt of the joke 99% of the time). Today he would. Never mind he'd have a lot less protection in law.

I think that's because these issue aren't necessarily related to a woman's feminity.

S.G.M. wrote: »

The majority of issues those females have told me has nothing to do with their femininity.

It would be my opinion that this is much more down to the simple fact that "toxic femininity" doesn't even exist as an idea in the current social narrative. So no wonder they, you, we don't ascribe things to it. Take your examples:

Its their looks, worries about the future, their figure, of course bullying etc

Their looks and figures and body image is about as "feminine" as it gets. There are whole industries that make many billions per year out of pandering to and egging on insecurities in women. Often run by some too. The fashion industry influencers and movers and shakers tend more to be women than just about any other business. Mass media is pretty women heavy too. Hell I find it at once hilarious and sad and daftly ironic that you have so called feminists being big into fashion.

That stuff in Men™ is a fraction of their reality. Sure the fat or bald guy will take some static and it's hurtful, but not nearly to the degree that women feel on a daily basis, no matter what they look like. Indeed it has been my personal experience that those women who more closely approach the current "ideal" are more likely to be neurotic about it. Body image in women and insecurities about it are like the tinnitus of life. Look at the gender disparity in eating disorders as an example. The disparity in cosmetic surgery. The disparity in interest in fashion. Look at fashion itself and look how slowly it changes for men over many decades, then look how quickly it changes for women. Hell, the industries actively try to push it as seasonal. Brown is the new black for the Faaaall seasons. Until spring, when it'll be yellow. Legs are in. Legless women need not apply. Even this new ballsology around "real women" and "plus size". That's just the same industries pushing more product in areas they weren't getting traction in. So they put some fat lass on the cover of Vogue(which won't sell nearly as much as a cover with a glamorexic photoshopped to giraffe limbed death), to show they're "inclusive". With the pages stuffed full of 15 year old coathangers from Moscow and diet ads and editorials.

Silentcorner wrote: »

We talk about men in the same way they spoke about Jews in Germany during the 30s...media turned on Jewish people and amplified a deep rooted flaw that exists in all of us where we are willing to see the worst in a gender/race/nationality.

Ah here S, I was with you up to this point. Just a tad OTT.

Though I would agree with you here:

Life is tough enough without having to deal with the infantile ideology of the Modern day Feminist.

Though for me I just ignore it. It's fun to watch what passes for their "philosophy" crumble like a butterfly wing at the merest touch in non echo chambers, but in my life it means sweet feck all. That said I don't work in a corporate environment. I don't have to watch my P's and Q's in such an environment. So it's easy for me to ignore it TBH. I give zero fcuks because I can afford to. I can understand a young lad in such an environment being wound up by it alright.

Skippyme wrote: »

The reason that ' toxic masculinity ' appears more commonly in psychology and sociology is likely due to

...fashion. That's the majority of it. It's a currently fashionable term that came along on the back of university social "studies" which trickled down into the media and psychology because the same students ended up in such careers afterwards. It's also an overswing of the pendulum from the sexist past.

it's overbearing presence, barriers, and conformists in varying degrees. Social media does encourage men to compete on a physical level not just in terms of appearance, but also visible strength and prowess. There is more pressure to appear dominate and self assured yet maintaining an easy going effortless persona. The precedence virtually at all times favours competing rather than supporting other males, especially in male exclusive friendships. It seems more severe and even though people may not fully realise the extent / complexities involved, more people both register to it as well as register it.

And women don't suffer from and indeed inflict similar? Women are just as, if not more socially competitive. They're less able to compete on the physical level so that can go in other directions. Again talk to actual women. Ask them about their school days, the cliques, the exclusion, all the way to social bullying. Ask them about their body image and how much that is in play in their minds. Ask them about their friendships. I have found male friendships to be much more solid and long lasting in general. Even in men/women friendships. Personally though both have been equally valued and great I have found my male friends more consistent and reliable than my women friends over time. I've had a few genuine women mates, like sisters really and fantastic people. The longest lasting was about fifteen years. Of my male friends the longest lasting are over forty years.

But ask women, I guarantee they'll open your eyes, particularly those who didn't quite fit in. It'll be a sliding scale of BS, but just the same as is found in male social dynamics. And yet, do we ever hear even the hint of "toxic femininity" being suggested? We do not. Indeed I strongly suspect even the very term would be considered "sexist" by many. Put it this way; when a Harvard study on partner abuse found that lesbian couples were most likely to be abusive even this was blamed on "patriarchal" thinking and "toxic masculinity". That the "butch" in the couple was simply aping the "toxic masculinity" of men and the patriarchy. Pity that the studies found that it was as likely to be the "femme" partner who was the abuser...