US take out Suleimani - mod warning in OP

charlie14

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

markodaly wrote: »

Iranians won't be giving the Black Box of the down airplane to the Americans or Boeing.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-51042326

If you scroll back you will see what the procedure internationally is for such incidents.

Just curious as to why you may believe Iran should hand over the flight recorders straight of the bat to either Boeing or America ?
Even if it had been normal procedure at some stage, which it was not, after the Boeing Max incidents could you honestly see any country doing so now ?

As to them giving them to the American`s, I fail to see why people seem to feel the need for this

MadYaker

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Been there 3 times already, you should go yourself, maybe expand your horizons a bit.

How did you go about it? Were the visas hard to get? Iran is definitely on my list. I was in Jordan a while back and loved it. Maybe when trumps out of office things will calm down a bit.

GooglePlus

charlie14 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

If you scroll back you will see what the procedure internationally is for such incidents.

Just curious as to why you may believe Iran should hand over the flight recorders straight of the bat to either Boeing or America ?
Even if it had been normal procedure at some stage, which it was not, after the Boeing Max incidents could you honestly see any country doing so now ?

As to them giving them to the American`s, I fail to see why people seem to feel the need for this

Why can't they publically give the box to an independent and neutral body, instead of this shroud of secrecy?

pearcider

volchitsa wrote: »

Whereas America's allies Saudi Arabia (you mention Yemen - look up what SA is doing there, and how the US is helping them) all have a great record on human rights, yeah?

Nah, it's all about money really - accuse Iran of human rights abuses but pretty much condone the murder of a US resident in Turkey by Saudi because money. If America really defended those rights, it would start by only allying itself with countries that respect them.

Anything else is just hypocrisy.

This is all whataboutery. Without US strategy in the region, your standard of living would take a much bigger hit than any Americans. So remember where your bread is buttered.

The reality is that save Western Europe and America there are no other countries that really respect human rights. They are a fragile thing.

So what are you saying here. The US should treat SA exactly like Iran? No you treat each country on its merit...the US can do business with the Saudis for the moment. They are allies and that’s not going to change over one murder. When the oil runs out maybe they won’t support them half so much. Already the US state dept don’t advise travel to there and they have a fractious relationship at best. They’re not best buddies despite what you anti Americans claim. But they are allies especially when it comes to the primary aim of US strategy in the region which is preventing Iran getting a nuclear weapon.

pearcider

Billy Mays wrote: »

Just like the GOP

Says it all really when you pretend Iran is ahead of the US in terms of being modern and progressive. There’s no talking to a closed mind like that.

MadYaker

pearcider wrote: »

Read between the lines here. This is the kind of poster basically wishing another 9/11 on the US. Never mind that citizens from over 100 countries were killed in the attacks. All from a childish attitude of sticking it to Uncle Sam. Sad.

Reading between the lines is just you making up bullish!t and putting words in people’s mouths. Please stop that. How many people died when the US invaded Iraq to get weapons of mass destruction that didn’t exist? People are still dying today because of the fallout from that intervention.

I love American society and culture, I have loads of American cousins and I visit often but their government can be absolutely abhorrent at times. You don’t seem to be able to see that. They are not the beacon of freedom and justice that you make them out to be.

pearcider

Billy Mays wrote: »

Just like the GOP

Says it all when you pretend that Iran is ahead of the US in protecting and enabling such rights. No talking to a closed mind like that.

MadYaker

pearcider wrote: »

This is all whataboutery. Without US strategy in the region, your standard of living would take a much bigger hit than any Americans. So remember where your bread is buttered.

The reality is that save Western Europe and America there are no other countries that really respect human rights. They are a fragile thing.

So what are you saying here. The US should treat SA exactly like Iran? No you treat each country on its merit...the US can do business with the Saudis for the moment. They are allies and that’s not going to change over one murder. When the oil runs out maybe they won’t support them half so much. Already the US state dept don’t advise travel to there and they have a fractious relationship at best. They’re not best buddies despite what you anti Americans claim. But they are allies especially when it comes to the primary aim of US strategy in the region which is preventing Iran getting a nuclear weapon.

The primary and only US strategy in the region is securing their cheap supply of crude oil that their economy and society is built on. Everything they do can be traced back to that. If they cared about human rights they’d have nothing to do with the likes Saudi Arabia where women are second class citizens owned by their husbands and homosexuality’s is illegal.

pearcider

ollkiller wrote: »

Have you actually ever read an article by Robert Fisk. His articles about the Middle East are second to none and you would know this if you ever read one of them. And how you would summarize him to be a socialist is beyond me.

Fisk hates America and loves Islam that’s clear from all his writings. He’s the most biased journalist I’ve ever read on the Middle East.

When he was nearly battered to death in Afghanistan by a mob, he blamed America. I’m serious. He’s a socialist in the truest sense of absolving people from their individual responsibility in favor of deferring to the collective ideology in this case militant Islam was the mobs first loyalty and not human decency. He’s a fruitcake.

ArchXStanton

MadYaker wrote: »

The primary and only US strategy in the region is securing their cheap supply of crude oil that their economy and society is built on. Everything they do can be traced back to that.

Like I said previously, a lot of American Freedams seem to be based in the middle east for some bizarre reason and need a military presence there, what made them move there nobody knows...

pearcider

MadYaker wrote: »

The primary and only US strategy in the region is securing their cheap supply of crude oil that their economy and society is built on. Everything they do can be traced back to that. If they cared about human rights they’d have nothing to do with the likes Saudi Arabia where women are second class citizens owned by their husbands and homosexuality’s is illegal.

You mean our economy and society is built on. The US is far less dependent on it than europe. Also do the crimes of Saudi excuse the crimes of the ayatollahs?

partyguinness

Let's put it this way: If Iran and Iraq were located in sub Saharan Africa i.e. not a bottle neck for the world's oil supply would the US be bothered?

Of course not.

Cheerful Spring2

pearcider wrote: »

Says it all when you pretend that Iran is ahead of the US in protecting and enabling such rights. No talking to a closed mind like that.

You require a history class. Black community is constantly complaining about their civil rights in the US. Remember black lives matter debate?. I don't enough to openly talk about it, but it not a society without issues. Plus, you just overlook 50+ years ago many of the Southern states had actual practices of segregation- black fellows and girls could even go to same toilet or eat in the same diner or mix with white people. The gay/ LBGT community still feel intimidated by the religious extremists in the United States. 

Iran not perfect we all know this, but you make it out like it's another ISIS despot state that we must destroy.

Dytalus

pearcider wrote: »

You mean our economy and society is built on. The US is far less dependent on it than europe. Also do the crimes of Saudi excuse the crimes of the ayatollahs?

Not in the least - but the US loses it right to claim to be fighting (or looking to fight) Iran because of human rights, or because of the Americans Iran has harmed through its proxy militias. The Saudi's are at least equally culpable in the murder of US citizens, support of terrorists, and in human rights abuse.

At least Iran helped against ISIS, and was helping against Al-Qaeda until Bush ruined everything with his Axis of Evil speech. The Saudi's...uh...invaded Lebanon?

The US has to stop claiming the morale high ground against Iran as proof of their righteous cause - it's not combatting Iran for morale reasons, it's campaigning against them for strategic reasons. Morality doesn't come into it.

charlie14

GooglePlus wrote: »

Why can't they publically give the box to an independent and neutral body, instead of this shroud of secrecy?

It is normal practice that the Air Accident Investigation Branch of the relevant Aviation Authority for the area where the crash occurs has first dibs on the flight recorders.
If that investigating branch has the capability to extract any information from the flight recorders they will do so.
If they have only limited capability they will extract what they can and then seek outside assistance to extract what the cannot.
We do not know what capability the relevant authority has yet so I do not get this calling for them to immediately hand over the flight recorders.

pearcider

Dytalus wrote: »

Not in the least - but the US loses it right to claim to be fighting (or looking to fight) Iran because of human rights, or because of the Americans Iran has harmed through its proxy militias. The Saudi's are at least equally culpable in the murder of US citizens, support of terrorists, and in human rights abuse.

At least Iran helped against ISIS, and was helping against Al-Qaeda until Bush ruined everything with his Axis of Evil speech. The Saudi's...uh...invaded Lebanon?

The US has to stop claiming the morale high ground against Iran as proof of their righteous cause - it's not combatting Iran for morale reasons, it's campaigning against them for strategic reasons. Morality doesn't come into it.

It’s combatting them for strategic reasons certainly but human rights and democracy are part of that. My issue the anti Americans in here seem to think Iran is the virtuous one here. We should all be supporting the US.

pearcider

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

You require a history class. Black community is constantly complaining about their civil rights in the US. Remember black lives matter debate?. I don't enough to openly talk about it, but it not a society without issues. Plus, you just overlook 50+ years ago many of the Southern states had actual practices of segregation- black fellows and girls could even go to same toilet or eat in the same diner or mix with white people. The gay/ LBGT community still feel intimidated by the religious extremists in the United States. 

Iran not perfect we all know this, but you make it out like it's another ISIS despot state that we must destroy.

Iran is “not perfect” but the US persecuted blacks in the 50s. Right. I get it.

ArchXStanton

pearcider wrote: »

It’s combatting them for strategic reasons certainly but human rights and democracy are part of that. My issue the anti Americans in here seem to think Iran is the virtuous one here. We should all be supporting the US.

So the US should be knocking on Macrons door for blowing peoples limbs off and losing eyes for daring to protest over worsening living conditions?

s7ryf3925pivug

pearcider wrote: »

You mean our economy and society is built on. The US is far less dependent on it than europe. Also do the crimes of Saudi excuse the crimes of the ayatollahs?

The USA and the UK bear responsibility for the current regime coming to power in Iran, which was a direct result of the coup they orchestrated in 1953. They did this explicitly in response to Iran nationalizing their oil supply. Iran did this because they were unsatisfied with the British oil company that had the rights to it.

The USA have danced to the tune of Saudi Arabia for decades, since the Saudis began to use access to their oil supply as leverage over them. This includes the spreading of their most destructive and negative form of Islam involving Jihad and extreme social regression - which provided the USA with proxy fighters to fight Communists in the Middle East. These fighters included Bin Laden.

The USA are highly dependent on them, not just directly because of their oil, but also because the money they use to buy the oil is in turn spent on advanced American weaponry. The Saudi military is famously well-equipped - and incompetent to the point of not being able to use the weapons effectively. Therefore I think this setup is more to do with making the USA dependent on them than on developing advanced conventional armed forces.

Cheerful Spring2

pearcider wrote: »

Iran is “not perfect” but the US persecuted blacks in the 50s. Right. I get it.

Iran not inside America seeking to subvert their system of government? Iraq even told the US military to get out, why do you think that is? Iraq military fought with the Iranians to remove ISIS they sick to death of their country being dragged into another war.  You think these regions can not survive on their own? You seem to forget Ireland was one time conquered by the English, it contribute to nothing but poverty. Southern Ireland now happy for over 100 years without military interference from other nations.

GooglePlus

charlie14 wrote: »

It is normal practice that the Air Accident Investigation Branch of the relevant Aviation Authority for the area where the crash occurs has first dibs on the flight recorders.
If that investigating branch has the capability to extract any information from the flight recorders they will do so.
If they have only limited capability they will extract what they can and then seek outside assistance to extract what the cannot.
We do not know what capability the relevant authority has yet so I do not get this calling for them to immediately hand over the flight recorders.

Just given the situation that was unfolding when this all happened, it would make sense to have it assessed by an unbiased party in the first instance.

By doing this they would publicaly show that, to their knowledge, nothing sinister happened.

They must know that holding onto the box will allow imaginations to run wild, so I don't know why they wouldn't want to avoid further and unnecessary tarring.

osarusan

pearcider wrote: »

It’s combatting them for strategic reasons certainly but human rights and democracy are part of that.

I've no problem saying that if we are to have one global superpower, it's better for that to be the USA than its rivals, but it's absurd to portray them as some kind of virtuous or altruistic actor.

USA has no absolutely problem installing and/or propping up despots as long as it suits wider strategy, and they have been at that for decades. They might waffle on about human right and democracy when it suits, but they will be abandoned when it doesn't suit.

And human rights and democracy only matter as long as there are strategic goals. In the hypothetical scenario that vast amounts of a rare and valuable resource was discovered deep under North Korean soil, we'd suddenly start hearing a lot about human rights and democracy there, and a need, why, even a moral obligation, for intervention.

All of this is criticism that could be levelled at a number of other major powers too, and international bodies, but when you position yourself as the world police, you are the one that will get the most criticism.

LillySV

charlie14 wrote: »

Are you somehow attempting to say that because American companies employ people in this state that we should not express our opinions on American meddling in Middle East affairs ?

You are apparently a fan of the USA so I imagine you are aware of their governing constitution.

If you are not then perhaps just give it even a cursory glance.
What you appear to believe we as citizens of another state should not do for financial reasons, is guaranteed as a right under the American constitution without any mention of not being allowed to do so for financial reasons.

Big difference between Expressing an opinion and what happened on this thread, insulting Americans and wishing bad things to their army ...

Cheerful Spring2

charlie14 wrote: »

It is normal practice that the Air Accident Investigation Branch of the relevant Aviation Authority for the area where the crash occurs has first dibs on the flight recorders.
If that investigating branch has the capability to extract any information from the flight recorders they will do so.
If they have only limited capability they will extract what they can and then seek outside assistance to extract what the cannot.
We do not know what capability the relevant authority has yet so I do not get this calling for them to immediately hand over the flight recorders.

Well it is odd, the plane would crash on the night Iran fired missiles into Iraq. We have to wait and see what the outcome is. Some individuals on here said it was missile and there no doubt about that, yet experts disagree and they talk about plane engine issue. It's a technical issue, pilot error, or something hit the plane during its flight.

Ironicname

LillySV wrote:

Lads here calling American airmen inbred hillbillies earlier.. stupid carry on and not acceptable ...

LillySV wrote:

As regards the money part, I’m highlighting the fact USA have done more for human rights than Iran have...

I'm not a fan of America's part in war atrocities but I'm glad someone else said this.

The hypocrisy is rife and the support for backwards regiemes is ludicrous.

Thank you Lilly.

charlie14

GooglePlus wrote: »

Just given the situation that was unfolding when this all happened, it would make sense to have it assessed by an unbiased party in the first instance.

By doing this they would publicaly show that, to their knowledge, nothing sinister happened.

They must know that holding onto the box will allow imaginations to run wild, so I don't know why they wouldn't want to avoid further and unnecessary tarring.

When all the initial noise was for them to hand over the flight recorders to Boeing and America I would not overly blame them for being skeptical.

As is they are following the normal internationally recognised protocols for such an incident. I imagine they do not feel the need to be pushed around to do otherwise.

Especially when you consider the hue and cry of where the calls were to send the flight recorders.
I doubt there is any authority, other than perhaps America at one stage, that would now off the bat hand flight recorders to Boeing, and far as I can see America has said that both their military and intelligence service were monitoring that airport and there was no missile heat signature detected.

That I would tend to believe, If it was a missile that was responsible I cannot see that the US would want to keep it quiet unless it was one of their own which I would find unlikely because of the timing.

charlie14

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Well it is odd, the plane would crash on the night Iran fired missiles into Iraq. We have to wait and see what the outcome is. Some individuals on here said it was missile and there no doubt about that, yet experts disagree and they talk about plane engine issue. It's a technical issue, pilot error, or something hit the plane during its flight.

Statistically it may seem strange, but like being hit by lightning, plane crashes have little to do with statistics

Well for those individual that said that, America, from what I can see are saying that their military and intelligence services were monitoring and they saw no signs of the heat signature you would see from a missile.
Perhaps those individuals believe it was a US missile, but why and for what purpose only they can say.

Cheerful Spring2

Ironicname wrote: »

I'm not a fan of America's part in war atrocities but I'm glad someone else said this.

The hypocrisy is rife and the support for backwards regiemes is ludicrous.

Thank you Lilly.

That rationale is funny as Iran signed accords with Europe and United States to constrain their nuclear program. Countries in Europe who signed the accord declared Iran did everything as promised. It was Trump who tore up an international signed agreement, not the Iranians. Trump give the Iranians the finger. Its Trump and colleagues who have made Iran more furious and the hardliners in the IRGC have gained more power to hit back against the US after the slaying their general. 

MadYaker

pearcider wrote: »

You mean our economy and society is built on. The US is far less dependent on it than europe. Also do the crimes of Saudi excuse the crimes of the ayatollahs?

What are you talking about??? We don’t even import crude oil. We import refined petroleum pruducts from the UK and Europe.

Dr. Bre

partyguinness wrote: »

Let's put it this way: If Iran and Iraq were located in sub Saharan Africa i.e. not a bottle neck for the world's oil supply would the US be bothered?

Of course not.

This is why North Korea still have a dictatorship. If they had resources like oil they would have been invaded long time ago