US take out Suleimani - mod warning in OP

wildeside

Cordell wrote: »

Or maybe leaving things well alone makes them ten thousand times worse.

Sorry but the burden of proof lies with you on this one. If you are proposing interventionism as a potential good then you need to provide clear evidence of where it has worked before and why it will be a net good.

The evidence on the 'non-interventionist' side of the argument so far is that it costs of hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of lives, untold levels of misery, trillions of dollars, mass migration and displacement and ever increasing amounts of hatred and worsening security for the west.

When your position involves hundreds of thousands of people being killed you really need some pretty hard evidence that the interventionist strategy is going to be a net good.

And at the end of the day I can't in any reality see how leaving the middle east alone would threaten the US in any meaningful way. Or at the very least that it would be worse off for doing so. Say the US just lets them (all those ME countries) at it. And say Iran, sworn enemy of the US, carries out an attack on US soil. What next? The US bombs the **** out of Iran, invades and tries to take over the country. On what planet would that actually make sense for Iran?

Seriously, leaving the middle east alone would be a winning strategy in any sane persons view.

Harika

MartianMessiah wrote: »

Iran only spend a tiny percentage of the US on defence.

Their airforce are obsolete aircraft from the Cold War era including pre 1979 F14 Tomcats F4 Phantoms and Soviet aircraft and other assorted relics which probably can no longer fly. Without air superiority the rest of their military are sitting ducks.

Their radars and surface to air missiles would probably shoot down a few American drones and aircraft but would be wiped out over weeks of 24/7 air attacks.

...
After weeks of attacks opposition in the country along with defecting military units could seize power after the leadership is decapitated.

All true, let's neglect for a second that the Iranian army is quiet motivated, no military buildup possible compared to the Iraq wars. The conjuring of Iran gets on well, few US casualties, but then what? Leave immediately? Occupy Iran for decades would be needed for nation building and as seen in Iraq and Afghanistan no guarantee for success but guaranteed long term grave of US people and tax dollars that the US public won't be happy to pay.

Cordell

Obviously I don't have any proof, it also wasn't a hard statement but just my opinion - I tend to support western powers to do the right thing for the western world. But if they were to be left alone then everyone should leave them alone, not just the Americans. And then trust them to keep the peace, which is difficult considering their history, and also trust them not to wipe out Israel, and also trust them to not hold us over our desperate need of oil. A lot of trust needed.

wildeside

MartianMessiah wrote: »

The Americans are not going to occupy Iran. They can destroy their air force navy and hammer their ground forces and destroy their nuclear facilities. Job done

What you do mean 'job done'? Like it's 'job done' in Afghanistan after 19 years and no end in sight?

Harika

MartianMessiah wrote: »

The Americans are not going to occupy Iran. They can destroy their air force navy and hammer their ground forces and destroy their nuclear facilities. Job done

And have a heavily pissed off country, even more dedicated for revenge? Just bombing some stuff didn't work in Bosnia, the general consensus is that without boot's on the ground that's merely a warning shot.

wildeside

Cordell wrote: »

Obviously I don't have any proof, it also wasn't a hard statement but just my opinion - I tend to support western powers to do the right thing for the western world. But if they were to be left alone then everyone should leave them alone, not just the Americans. And then trust them to keep the peace, which is difficult considering their history, and also trust them not to wipe out Israel, and also trust them to not hold us over our desperate need of oil. A lot of trust needed.

Ok, fair enough. But I really think the jury is no longer out on interventionism, the results are in, it doesn't work.

And interventionism is always framed as the benevolent west trying to do the right thing. Let's say that's the genuine motivation. Well, I think it just goes to prove the old adage that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

But let's say that's not the genuine motivation. Then what is? Well profits/money is always a good bet. But for who? The arms industry and their shills. And the corporation owned MSM in the US always fall into line for the same reason, money/profits. War is great for ratings if nothing else.

I think 'we' have been at war so long now it's been completed normalised in our psyche. There's nothing normal about that

volchitsa

Cordell wrote: »

Obviously I don't have any proof, it also wasn't a hard statement but just my opinion - I tend to support western powers to do the right thing for the western world. But if they were to be left alone then everyone should leave them alone, not just the Americans. And then trust them to keep the peace, which is difficult considering their history, and also trust them not to wipe out Israel, and also trust them to not hold us over our desperate need of oil. A lot of trust needed.

I assume you still mean Iran here, so could you tell us the last country that Iran invaded please?

Not a fan of the Iranian régime by any means, myself, but any objective examination of their history of foreign interference and outright invasion shows them to be more often the victim than the aggressor.

Cordell

Yes, unfortunately sharing the world and it's resources peacefully is not possible.

lawred2

X111111111111 wrote: »

Stay away from MSM news sources like CNN, Sky, RTE etc... They are all signing from the same hymn sheet and push an agenda

Grand..

So what credible news sources do you follow then?

The question wasn't; who do you avoid?!

jackboy

wildeside wrote: »

What you do mean 'job done'? Like it's 'job done' in Afghanistan after 19 years and no end in sight?

No invasion necessary. They just need to remove Iran as a threat like they did with Iraq and Afghanistan years ago. No need to spend years searching caves for a few hold outs.

volchitsa

Cordell wrote: »

Yes, unfortunately sharing the world and it's resources peacefully is not possible.

Has it ever been tried? It's a bit like saying that perfection isn't possible: blindingly obvious, but the real question is where do you go from there - do you keep trying or do you go for complete lawlessness where the strongest take whatever they want from those who are weaker?

Because that's where Trump is sending the planet. His latest threat, to defy the Geneva Convention and attack cultural centres has to be a deliberate choice to tear up any international agreements no matter how valuable they have shown themselves to be.

Like when a Mafia boss makes it clear that they have killed someone, it's a deliberate show of force. He does it because he can. A precedent that cannot end well for the rest of us.

wildeside

jackboy wrote: »

No invasion necessary. They just need to remove Iran as a threat like they did with Iraq and Afghanistan years ago. No need to spend years searching caves for a few hold outs.

How is Iran a threat as things currently stand and to who?

Cordell

How can it be tried? Withdraw all american and NATO troops and hope for the best? That's naive to say the least.

Guy:Incognito

So, this is.........................cool. No problems at all.

https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1213796702211203072

J Mysterio

MartianMessiah wrote: »

The Americans are not going to occupy Iran. They can destroy their air force navy and hammer their ground forces and destroy their nuclear facilities. Job done

volchitsa

Cordell wrote: »

How can it be tried? Withdraw all american and NATO troops and hope for the best? That's naive to say the least.

Assuming you still mean Iran, there was a deal in place, which was working.
Trump tore it up because he hates anything that Obama did.

archer22

Despite Iran's lack of a modern airforce, globalfirepower still ranks them as 14th most powerful military in the world.

That puts them well ahead of Israel at 17th or even North Korea at 18th.

There will be no cakewalk for America in this war....it will be a major and catastrophic conflict.

weisses

Shocking irresponsible behavior from the Americans .....





Flying a drone near an airport

jackboy

wildeside wrote: »

How is Iran a threat as things currently stand and to who?

Well if a war starts they will be a threat. I’m not saying a war is needed or a good idea.

GarIT

In my opinion the USA are now the terrorists. There is no war on terror, it is a war of terror. Every non-middle eastern soldier in the middle east is a terrorist. RTE news has the leader of Iran calling trump a terrorist in a suit, he is right.


I just hope this encourages us to stop letting terrorists refuel in Shannon. Borris will surely let them refuel over there.

volchitsa

archer22 wrote: »

Despite Iran's lack of a modern airforce, globalfirepower still ranks them as 14th most powerful military in the world.

That puts them well ahead of Israel at 17th or even North Korea at 18th.

There will be no cakewalk for America in this war....it will be a major and catastrophic conflict.

Be really interesting if Corporal Bonespurs ever has to bring in conscription over that. I'd almost wish for him to win the next election solely to see the karma of it. But then I think about all the other people who would die first, so no.

GarIT

archer22 wrote: »

Despite Iran's lack of a modern airforce, globalfirepower still ranks them as 14th most powerful military in the world.

That puts them well ahead of Israel at 17th or even North Korea at 18th.

There will be no cakewalk for America in this war....it will be a major and catastrophic conflict.

Iran and North Korea also see each other as allies, a war with Iran wouldn't be good for tensions with North Korea.

archer22

GarIT wrote: »

Iran and North Korea also see each other as allies, a war with Iran wouldn't be good for tensions with North Korea.

Well one thing is for certain...North Korea isn't going to dismantle its nukes now after seeing this.

Mad_maxx

X111111111111 wrote: »

Or maybe just maybe he's done the right thing and taken out a mass mudering terrorist.

i never heard of the guy before a few days ago so you might well be right .

X111111111111

GarIT wrote: »

In my opinion the USA are now the terrorists. There is no war on terror, it is a war of terror. Every non-middle eastern soldier in the middle east is a terrorist. RTE news has the leader of Iran calling trump a terrorist in a suit, he is right.


I just hope this encourages us to stop letting terrorists refuel in Shannon. Borris will surely let them refuel over there.

We have a good history of fighting terrorism here in Ireland. We should fully support the Americans in their fight against Iranian state sponsored terrorism and help expand their operations from Shannon.

GarIT

X111111111111 wrote: »

We have a good history of fighting terrorism here in Ireland. We should fully support the Americans in their fight against Iranian state sponsored terrorism and help expand their operations from Shannon.

I completely disagree. America aren't fighting terrorism in Iran, they are provoking it with their own acts of terror.


We are a neutral country, no non-neutral country's military should be allowed to refuel here.

Auguste Comte

X111111111111 wrote: »

We have a good history of fighting terrorism here in Ireland. We should fully support the Americans in their fight against Iranian state sponsored terrorism and help expand their operations from Shannon.

Who should we support to fight against American state sponsored terrorism?

Gatling

Gringo180 wrote: »

The Iranians are no saints, but you paint America as some sort of Utopian nation where none of the above happen s

No I certainly don't nor have I ever .


Sure tell us all about them pesky Indians in the wild west ,


Constantly repeating Vietnam Iraq and Libya shows what limit your actual knowledge about the subject other than murica did this and murica did that.

PokeHerKing

GarIT wrote: »

I completely disagree. America aren't fighting terrorism in Iran, they are provoking it with their own acts of terror.


We are a neutral country, no non-neutral country's military should be allowed to refuel here.

If life was that black and white we'd all be living in a communist wonderland. Like it or not we need America on our side and pulling the plug on Shannon would just be pointless antagonism and akin to shooting oneself in the foot.

ArchXStanton

archer22 wrote: »

Despite Iran's lack of a modern airforce, globalfirepower still ranks them as 14th most powerful military in the world.

That puts them well ahead of Israel at 17th or even North Korea at 18th.

There will be no cakewalk for America in this war....it will be a major and catastrophic conflict.

The biggest problem is the whole region will be in flames, Israel needn't think its safe either hiding behind the skirt of the US, the Iranians have years of planning if the US attacks