US take out Suleimani - mod warning in OP

James Brown

It was put forward we should be scared because folk were marching on the US embassy. My point is what would the US do if the situation were reversed?

Manic Moran

MadYaker wrote: »

“We’ve invested over a decade trying to help the Iraqis” give me a fcuking break. You invaded their country and bombed them back to the Stone Age, lied to the entire world about them having WMDs and killed their leader who although he was a despot he was at least providing some stability. Iraq is a basket case because of US intervention and your take on it is that you spent 10 years to help them? It’s like talking to someone from North Korea. How many Iraqis have died? Is it in the milllions yet?

OK. Let's take your rant at face value. America bad.

That said, there are currently US troops there. There are two choices. They stay, or they leave. Ranting about why they're there in the first place doesn't change that basic fact.

I'm sure the Iraqis would like, at some point, for the US troops to leave. The US would like US troops to leave. Do you disagree with this premise or desired outcome? If not, let's continue. The question, then, is 'when?'

Iraq is not the first country that the US (And its allies) has militarily obliterated, taken control over, and then tried to hand the running of the country back over to. We nuked Japan. We flattened Germany. We just walked over Panama. For good or ill, those are facts. In no other case has active US military participation been required after the first couple of years in order for the countries to get themselves back on their feet. Iraq is proving an outlier, and there is a strong concurrence of opinion that the Iraqis are failing themselves when given the same opportunities as the other nations. It may or may not be a valid position (After all, Iraq is a little less homogenous than Japan or Germany so it's not going to be as simple) but it's a position nevertheless.

Folks are starting to come of age in Iraq now who do not remember Saddam. There is an entirely new generation starting to have a voice there, and the future of Iraq is what they will make of it. Is there not an argument that they should be permitted to do so without the backdrop of making it under the shadows of US drones and patrols with US MRAPS?

I am not read into the current assessments coming out of Iraq, and I've not been there in over a decade. I have absolutely no idea if the US forces leaving Iraq are a good thing or a bad thing. If the Iraqis say 'leave', I doubt there will be much opposition in the US. If the Iraqi admins says 'stay', then we stay, continue to help out, and this whole 'Iraqi parliament votes for the US to leave' thing is revealed as a sham from a government which cannot yet support itself after at least ten years. But eventually, the training wheels will have to come off.

pearcider

alastair wrote: »

It doesn’t explain why you’d be making up fairy tales though.

There’s 10 women in that single photo btw. I can keep them coming if you like?

Looks like 99.99% men. A few burka clad women. What a wonderful society it is.

alastair

Manic Moran wrote: »

Iraq is not the first country that the US (And its allies) has militarily obliterated, taken control over, and then tried to hand the running of the country back over to. We nuked Japan. We flattened Germany. We just walked over Panama. For good or ill, those are facts. In no other case has active US military participation been required after the first couple of years in order for the countries to get themselves back on their feet.

We?


Vietnam? Korea? Afghanistan?

alastair

pearcider wrote: »

Looks like 99.99% men. A few burka clad women. What a wonderful society it is.

There’s actually more women in that picture than men.

Plenty of women there: https://amayei.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/2020/01/soleimani-funeral-tehran-ap.jpeg

Gatling

alastair wrote: »

Korea? Afghanistan?

South Korea invaded by the north supported and aided by Russia and China ,
Afghanistan was a very open country well educated and no restrictions on peoples lives they produced something like 60% of the world fruit at the time then came the Russian invasion and occupation

charlie14

alastair wrote: »

It doesn’t explain why you’d be making up fairy tales though.

There’s 10 women in that single photo btw. I can keep them coming if you like?

Lot of truth still left in the old adage that can be dated back to John Heywood in 1546 for a few here it seems.

"There are none so blind as those who will not see"

alastair

Gatling wrote: »

South Korea invaded by the north supported and aided by Russia and China ,
Afghanistan was a very open country well educated and no restrictions on peoples lives they produced something like 60% of the world fruit at the time then came the Russian invasion and occupation

Are you suggesting that the US military didn’t take control of those places and remained in place for years after?

Gatling

alastair wrote: »

Are you suggesting that the US military didn’t take control

After they were attacked and invaded by others .

threeball

alastair wrote: »

New appointment at optician might help there, fellah.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/06/middleeast/iraq-us-iran-tensions-intl-hnk/index.html

An optician wouldn't deal in the problems he has.

alastair

Gatling wrote: »

After they were attacked and invaded by others .

The US military were in Korea before the north invaded. The Russians were long gone from Afghanistan before the US military invaded. So, no.

Cheerful Spring2

threeball wrote: »

This is exactly the scenario I had thought it played out back at the start of the thread. He was lured by the US and possibly Saudis on false pretences to "peace talks" in order to nail down his exact location and carry out the strike. If that turns out to be true then members of the American administration and possibly Trump should be sitting in the Hague on war crimes charges, but that will never happen to the self appointed "good guys".

I'd take Suleimani over any of them any day.

The Specific allege was made by the leaving Iraqi PM. Soleimani was in town for talks about brokering, a reconciliation between the Saudis and Iran and possibly the US. So the US insisting it was good intelligence that lead them to target him, is a lie, as they knew of these back-channel meetings and decided to just take him out instead.

The Pentagon produced a list of options they claim and Trump picked the extreme one an assassination. ( Pentagon are you insane giving him horrible options!) don't do that again please.

Trump just stupid, he thought this was another Baghdadi like triumph for US and the media channels would love him. Lot of media did not love him for this, they considered it was reckless act when they are not officially at war with Iran. 

Simplistic to solely blame Trump there lot of characters around him that are supposed to give him sound advice and ease him away from causing instability in the region. George Bush Jr he knew killing this Iranian general would be serious and dangerous!

I never expected we see the 2002/03 war on terror/ Terrorist nonsense again but it even worse today because the Trump and his cronies are not hiding what they they plan on doing and openly discussing the destruction and mayhem that wil happen if Iran hits back.

Trump threatening to strike cultures sites of Iran on twitter is bloody meme at this stage! We have a leader of the most powerful nation on earth claiming he will direct the US military to hit Persian sites with smart bombs! Think how crazy that is in this day and age!

nacho libre

Gatling wrote: »

South Korea invaded by the north supported and aided by Russia and China ,
Afghanistan was a very open country well educated and no restrictions on peoples lives they produced something like 60% of the world fruit at the time then came the Russian invasion and occupation

Russia did this, Russia did that. Do you always have to bring up the past. You seem not to like it when American history of meddling is brought up. Why the double standard, Gatling?

charlie14

Gatling wrote: »

South Korea invaded by the north supported and aided by Russia and China ,
Afghanistan was a very open country well educated and no restrictions on peoples lives they produced something like 60% of the world fruit at the time then came the Russian invasion and occupation

Because of the threat of imminent danger perhaps'

Sauce for the goose and all that......

Gatling

alastair wrote: »

The US military were in

But they were both attacked and invaded by others yes ?

threeball

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

The Specific allege was made by the leaving Iraqi PM. Soleimani was in town for talks about brokering, a reconciliation between the Saudis and Iran and possibly the US. So the US insisting it was good intelligence that lead them to target him, is a lie, as they knew of these back-channel meetings and decided to just take him out instead.

The Pentagon produced a list of options they claim and Trump picked the extreme one an assassination. ( Pentagon are you insane giving him horrible options!) don't do that again please.

Trump just stupid, he thought this was another Baghdadi like triumph for US and the media channels would love him. Lot of media did not love him for this, they considered it was reckless act when they are not officially at war with Iran. 

Simplistic to solely blame Trump there lot of characters around him that are supposed to give him sound advice and ease him away from causing instability in the region. George Bush Jr he knew killing this Iranian general would be serious and dangerous!

I never expected we see the 2002/03 war on terror/ Terrorist nonsense again but it even worse today because the Trump and his cronies are not hiding what they they plan on doing and openly discussing the destruction and mayhem that wil happen if Iran hits back.

Trump threatening to strike cultures sites of Iran on twitter is bloody meme at this stage! We have a leader of the most powerful nation on earth claiming he will direct the US military to hit Persian sites with smart bombs! Think how crazy that is in this day and age!

We all knew this was coming from the day he got elected though. It's amazing he got to year 4 before it happened. Who knows what he'll manage before November, an ecological extinction or two, another missile crisis. The year is young.

Gatling

nacho libre wrote: »

Do you always have to bring up the past. You seem not to like it when American

America did and America did that yes we are all well aware of what they did ,have they been publicly called out on their mistakes by me and many others on multiple threads and numerous years across multiple forums the same with Israel


So yes if you can't handle the fact America is not solely responsible for the worlds and people's personal woes may be it time to find a hobby or something

Cheerful Spring2

threeball wrote: »

We all knew this was coming from the day he got elected though. It's amazing he got to year 4 before it happened. Who knows what he'll manage before November, an ecological extinction or two, another missile crisis. The year is young.

 I definitely feared the Washington neocons would do something in the future, but i thought Trump would not allow the US to start another war in the middle east during his presidency.  Trump unfortunately can't be trusted now, and we in the new world now, war with Iran more likely. Iran response will decide want happens now.

woohoo!!!

Part of the problem is that in previous centuries, Europeans drew a random line in a map and called it a country. Depending on which country, there could be 2, 4 or any number of factions/tribes who have a long history of hating on each other. So called strong men want the maximum territory and area of influence and will use whatever means to enforce same. Perhaps the conversation should move to, matching countries up with tribes rather than strong men or constant civil wars being the norm. Which westerners know fa about but can offer to help.

archer22

Just seen Pompeo on tv, still talking the same ****e but what was noticeable was the smug look was gone off his face.

He looked stressed, like a mobster that had just been told that there's a Horse's head on his bed.

pearcider

alastair wrote: »

There’s actually more women in that picture than men.

Plenty of women there: https://amayei.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/2020/01/soleimani-funeral-tehran-ap.jpeg

All forced to wear black and huddle together. While men are free to wear what they choose. I don’t know what’s more heartbreaking. That women are still forced to live like that in the 21st century. Or that people like you who grew up in the western world see nothing wrong with it.

X111111111111

alastair wrote: »

I think you’ll find that the Iranian-backed insurgents were fighting the head-choppers.

Jesus your lack of understanding of what occurred over the last few years in the middle east is breathtakingly stark.

facehugger99

50 killed in a stampede at his funeral.

I doubt the gene pool is going to suffer much somehow.

pearcider

threeball wrote: »

We all knew this was coming from the day he got elected though. It's amazing he got to year 4 before it happened. Who knows what he'll manage before November, an ecological extinction or two, another missile crisis. The year is young.

Trump has been remarkably restrained. Obama remains the drone king with the high score of well over 500 but the orange man bad brigade have short memories.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WWKG6ZmgAX4

How progressive!

4068ac1elhodqr

facehugger99 wrote: »

50 killed in a stampede at his funeral.
I doubt the gene pool is going to suffer much somehow.

And over 200 injured, looks like they need some Netflix n' Chill.

pearcider

facehugger99 wrote: »

50 killed in a stampede at his funeral.

I doubt the gene pool is going to suffer much somehow.

Killed way more than the actual air strike 🙄

I guess the US is to blame for that too.

James Brown

pearcider wrote: »

Trump has been remarkably restrained. Obama remains the drone king with the highs score of well over 500 but the orange men bad brigade have short memories.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WWKG6ZmgAX4

How progressive!

Seriously, what has one to do with the other? Personally I think the Democrats are far too right wing. Trump is just the current President. No point in bitching about Obama is there?

Igotadose

pearcider wrote: »

Trump has been remarkably restrained. Obama remains the drone king with the high score of well over 500 but the orange man bad brigade have short memories.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WWKG6ZmgAX4

How progressive!

Trump's admin doesn't report Drone strike results anymore. One of the first things he did when becoming President. Try again.

pearcider

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Seriously, what has one to do with the other? Personally I think the Democrats are far too right wing. Trump is just the current President. No point in bitching about Obama is there?

My point is Trump ha shown a lot of restraint. People forget he canceled a massive air strike on Iran two months ago because he was concerned that the 100+ casualties the pentagon gave him as an estimate was too high and disproportionate.

Credit where it is due.

Cheerful Spring2

X111111111111 wrote: »

Jesus your lack of understanding of what occurred over the last few years in the middle east is breathtakingly stark.

Why don't you guys contribute some stories to show us we are mistaken?

Gatling was asked to contribute evidence Iranian/ Iraq shia groups chopped off heads like Isis, and did comparable acts. It should not be hard to find evidence, since there is plenty of video and news about Sunni/ Islamist crimes online!