Are drivers getting more aggressive last 10 years, or coked up?

Potential-Monke

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Beware of false equivalence. The problem is that motorists kill 2 or 3 people each week and maim many more. Motorists have to stop killing people.

Yes, all road users break laws, motorists, cyclists, pedestrians, scootists. But only one group kills 2 or 3 people each week. Theirin lies the problem.


Here's a more detailed explanation of the false equivalence.


https://www.roadbikerider.com/correcting-the-false-equivalencies-in-the-cars-vs-cyclists-debate-d5/

I do get and appreciate that, but it's also because getting hit by a bicycle is less likely to cause serious harm, when compared to a car. And it's the same for everything, the first stabbing in a town is all over the news, as is the second and third and even the fourth, but once it starts becoming "normal", it no longer gets reported. I wonder if there are any figures out there for the amount of pedestrians struck by a cyclist. Doubt it, and I'd imagine most go unreported.

And I agree, motorists do have to be extra careful of cyclists and pedestrians, the problem is that some cyclists don't help themselves, and this causes the frustration between the 2 groups while they blame each other. I wish there was an easy resolution to this, but the only one I can think of that would definitely work, is to build elevated bike paths over footpaths, like a story up, or something similar. Would take massive planning and costs would be huge, but it would resolve the issues. Or just put all traffic underground. Neither of which are feasible.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I brought video to the Gardai of a driver using his phone to do email five times over the course of about ten minutes. The Garda refused to prosecute because 'it could have been any kind of device he was using'.

Strange. Would have thought that a file would be done and let the Super/DPP decide. I would have gone beyond that Garda and requested the Sergeant to look into it. Video evidence is video evidence, and regardless if it wasn't a phone being used, sending emails while driving is another specific offence, as is a 51A ticket for Driving Without Due Care. *shrug*

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

For the record, bikes are a great mobility aid for many people with disabilities. Check out Christy's story:

I'm not suggesting that bikes are for everybody, or should be compulsory, but they do work well for many people with disabilities.

Point taken.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Motorists need to stop killing people.

I searched, but I couldn't find anything regarding how many pedestrian fatalities were caused by themselves, ie: not looking where they were going, etc. While I've no doubt it's not a large number, it certainly should be taken into account. I drive as per the law as best I can, simply because I don't want some stupid bad habit being the cause of an accident, and I can hand on heart say I drive legally (getting a dashcam soon). But I've still nearly hit people who don't look where they're going, only for me spotting these people just before it happens and I can take evasive action, or slow down depending on the situation, before this stupid person kills themselves.

Again, not saying it's the main cause, I completely understand that way too many motorists should never be let behind a wheel, but it's not always the motorists fault. Just as much as motorists need to be more aware, other road users also need to be more aware that their squishy bodies will not win against the hard cold metal of a tonne weight car.

AndrewJRenko

murphyebass wrote: »

Geeeeeeeez we get it you’re a cyclist. Yay you.

Now that you’ve had your rant could you politely get the **** off your high horse.

Cyclists and motorists are as bad as each other. Some cyclists are great road users, others are ****heads. Some motorist are great road users and guess what, others are you guessed it ****heads.

Chris it’s your holier than thou cyclist attitude that pisses motorists off.

For the record, like most cyclists, I'm also a driver.


I'd be interested in your definition of 'as bad as each other'. Motorists have killed more than 4,000 people since the turn of the century here. Cyclists have killed 2 people. It's hard to see 2 deaths 'as bad as' 4,000 deaths.

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I do get and appreciate that, but it's also because getting hit by a bicycle is less likely to cause serious harm, when compared to a car. And it's the same for everything, the first stabbing in a town is all over the news, as is the second and third and even the fourth, but once it starts becoming "normal", it no longer gets reported.

There's some truth in what you say, that yes, the reason for the big difference in outcomes is down to the size, weight and speed of the vehicle in question. A 1-5 tonne car/SUV doing 20-150 kmph is always going to cause much, much more damage than a 10kg bike doing 10-20 kmph.


I'm not claiming that cyclists are better people. It's not about who's the best. It IS about who causes the most harm and how they cause harm. Motorists cause most harm on the road, usually by speeding, using their phones, driving while tired or drink driving.

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I wonder if there are any figures out there for the amount of pedestrians struck by a cyclist. Doubt it, and I'd imagine most go unreported.

Serious collisions aren't unreported. At a minimum, they will be recorded in A&E or in a GP surgery. There has never been any analysis of such records showing that injuries caused by cyclists were significant.

Potential-Monke wrote: »

And I agree, motorists do have to be extra careful of cyclists and pedestrians, the problem is that some cyclists don't help themselves, and this causes the frustration between the 2 groups while they blame each other.

This is where we disagree. Cyclists don't cause frustration for motorists.


What actually causes frustration for motorists is other motorists - traffic. But for some strange reason, motorists can't bear to blame other motorists (because deep down, they know it's bit hypocritical to blame other traffic when you're causing traffic yourself).



So they look for a fall guy, a patsy to take the blame - let's go for cyclists. Let's blame cyclists for breaking red lights (while 98% of us motorists break speed limits). Let's blame cyclists for not having hi-vis (while black and navy are the most popular car colours). Let's blame cyclists for taking up space on the road, while we drive around with an empty armchair beside us and an empty couch behind us. Let's blame cyclists for not wearing plastic foam helmets while we drive around bareheaded knowing that the vast majority of head injuries occur in cars, not on bikes.



It is nonsense - none of the arguments for blaming cyclists or 'cyclists causing frustration' have any rational basis in fact.


And you know what, if I waved my magic want and made sure all cyclists obeyed every red light tomorrow, would there warm hugs coming from the motoring community? Nah, they'd be whinging about helmets and hi-vis and road tax and all the other makey-uppey issues that help them avoid the rational truth that actually, they themselves are the problem.



And there are solutions out there - Amsterdam in the 1970s was totally car dominated, until they made policy decisions to bring about serious change. Look at what Seville did in recent years investing a relatively small amount of money in good segregated cycling infrastructure and achieved big numbers of people switching to cycling. Look at the many cities around the world reducing private car access and numbers in favour of cycling and public transport. There are real solutions within reach, once we get over our fetish for enabling people to drive around with four empty seats all day.

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Strange. Would have thought that a file would be done and let the Super/DPP decide. I would have gone beyond that Garda and requested the Sergeant to look into it. Video evidence is video evidence, and regardless if it wasn't a phone being used, sending emails while driving is another specific offence, as is a 51A ticket for Driving Without Due Care. *shrug*

I could have taken it to GSOC, but I made a practical decision to focus my energy on the other reports I had going. In the UK, they've made it real easy for people to report other road users. One cyclists had more than 300 reports last year, many of them resulting in fines and points for compliant drivers. Given the antiquated process here where each report requires a follow-up formal statement given in a station handwritten by the Garda, the numbers here are much lower. But I think I'm in double-figures for the number of drivers who got fines and points as a result of my reports last year.

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I searched, but I couldn't find anything regarding how many pedestrian fatalities were caused by themselves, ie: not looking where they were going, etc. While I've no doubt it's not a large number, it certainly should be taken into account. I drive as per the law as best I can, simply because I don't want some stupid bad habit being the cause of an accident, and I can hand on heart say I drive legally (getting a dashcam soon). But I've still nearly hit people who don't look where they're going, only for me spotting these people just before it happens and I can take evasive action, or slow down depending on the situation, before this stupid person kills themselves.

Again, not saying it's the main cause, I completely understand that way too many motorists should never be let behind a wheel, but it's not always the motorists fault. Just as much as motorists need to be more aware, other road users also need to be more aware that their squishy bodies will not win against the hard cold metal of a tonne weight car.

I haven't seen those particular figures, but I have seen research from around the world showing that in general, for motorist/cyclist collisions, motorists were at fault more often than not. For London, it was 70% odd motorist fault, Adelaide was 80% odd motorist fault, Vancouver was 92% motorist fault.


You only have to look at the road deaths, and see how the majority are motorist killing other motorist or passengers to see that this makes sense.
Most road deaths are caused by motorists. If you want to reduce road deaths, focus on motorist behaviour.

murphyebass

Andrewjrenko, from the get go I said both cyclist and motorist were bad.

Your incredibly defensive bike attitude is just disturbing to be honest. You have an extreme chip on your shoulder against motorists.

To answer your original question op I think this poster epitomises why there is such a divide and why motorists have become more angry in recent times.

Anyway I’m out.

Remember children motorist are the devil and cyclists are angels.

AndrewJRenko

murphyebass wrote: »

Your incredibly defensive bike attitude is just disturbing to be honest. You have an extreme chip on your shoulder against motorists.

You think I'm bad?

https://twitter.com/TheWarOnCars/status/1216472679588540418?s=19

amadangomor

Lunatic just over an hour ago on N4 must be on something/drunk or have mental problems or all of the above. Was in a continuous line in outside lane. He undertook and pushed into the gap, then slowed down, while regularly moving into the other lane and then swerving back. The coup de gras was coming up to the Kilcock exit he swerved across from the outside lane into the exit almost crashing into the cars on the exit. Pity I didn't think of getting his reg.

Apart from the general level of driving deteriorating there are definitely more of these complete headcases around.

work

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I....I searched, but I couldn't find anything regarding how many pedestrian fatalities were caused by themselves, ie: not looking where they were going, .....l, but it's not always the motorists fault. Just as much as motorists need to be more aware, other road users also need to be more aware that their squishy bodies will not win against the hard cold metal of a tonne weight car.

Shortened your post, not to alter but show the main points, "pedestrian causalities...caused by themselves". I believe from your post you have a good attitude but your showing the usual misconception of many behind the wheel. It is almost ALWAYS the driver that kills using a lethal weapon known as a car, you really cannot blame the victim in almost any case. At best the victim could be contributory but the blame should always lie with the driver and certainly not the car.

work

In answer to the OPs question, I have found that there have been easily predicted changes to drivers attitudes over the last few years driven by no law enforcement.
There is no policing so there is an increase in law-breaking. This makes the roads dangerous and makes people feel very unsafe (huge issue for pedestrians and cyclists).
People driving are annoyed for many reasons including:
1) Watching others break the law
2) Being delayed or feeling in danger by those breaking the laws
3) Increased traffic results in frustration
4) The media is divisive and builds a poor atmosphere among road users
5) We have an unhealthy preoccupation and entitlement to cars.
6) They are aware the game is up and things are changing, though we do not know exactly how.


In summary most road users think they are courteous but most aren't with a small number of being pig ignorant and downright lethal.

murphyebass

work wrote: »

Shortened your post, not to alter but show the main points, "pedestrian causalities...caused by themselves". I believe from your post you have a good attitude but your showing the usual misconception of many behind the wheel. It is almost ALWAYS the driver that kills using a lethal weapon known as a car, you really cannot blame the victim in almost any case. At best the victim could be contributory but the blame should always lie with the driver and certainly not the car.

Sigh. So cyclists are perfect yeah?

I saw three bikes this evening doing silly things from having zero lights and dark clothing to running red lights to swerving in and out towards traffic.

Motorists definitely do silly things every day of the week but Christ there are some very stupid cyclists out there too.

How more aren’t killed or seriously injured daily (particularly in Dublin) is an absolute miracle.

Based on what I witness daily drivers should get a ****in medal for not mowing more of ye down quite frankly.

AndrewJRenko

murphyebass wrote: »

Sigh. So cyclists are perfect yeah?

I saw three bikes this evening doing silly things from having zero lights and dark clothing to running red lights to swerving in and out towards traffic.

Motorists definitely do silly things every day of the week but Christ there are some very stupid cyclists out there too.

How more aren’t killed or seriously injured daily (particularly in Dublin) is an absolute miracle.

Based on what I witness daily drivers should get a ****in medal for not mowing more of ye down quite frankly.

Where did anyone say that cyclists were perfect?


They don't generally have video playing in front of their eyes while they're responsible for controlling a ton or two of metal doing speeds of 20-150 kmph, like the nice man I saw this evening.



They don't generally kill two or three people each week, as drivers do.

McCrack

amadangomor wrote: »

Lunatic just over an hour ago on N4 must be on something/drunk or have mental problems or all of the above. Was in a continuous line in outside lane. He undertook and pushed into the gap, then slowed down, while regularly moving into the other lane and then swerving back. The coup de gras was coming up to the Kilcock exit he swerved across from the outside lane into the exit almost crashing into the cars on the exit. Pity I didn't think of getting his reg.

Apart from the general level of driving deteriorating there are definitely more of these complete headcases around.

Probably making a point you were sitting in the overtaking lane instead of keeping left

Strumms

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

They don't generally kill two or three people each week, as drivers do.

In fairness Andrew, cyclists don’t kill two or three people per week because..

- the number of bike users is minuscule compared to drivers

- a bike will only travel usually a fraction of the speed of a vehicle

- the weight and mass of a bike is a tiny percentage of the weight and mass of a car...a bike can weigh maybe 15 kgs...a Toyota Corolla weights 1200 kgs, empty... 1.2 tonnes. So any accident is unlikely to be too serious.

Realistically unless a bike is pîssing it through a red light, ploughing into somebody crossing it CANNOT cause any life changing (life threatening) injury. That said I see shît loads of cyclists who cycle dangerously... in the city especially at every traffic light if you want to wait a small amount of time bikes WILL break the red as pedestrians try and cross...

Some cyclists are **** and cycle dangerously, some car drivers the same. Some pedestrians are also dangerous idiots walking out in front of traffic...

We need to forget about cyclists vs motorists vs pedestrians... we ALL have a fûcking duty of care to one another, whether we are sitting in a car, on a bike, crossing on foot or making your way to mass on a unicycle while eating a meatball marinara... this blame game rubbish doesn’t help the debate, everyone in transit has a responsibility to their fellow motorists and citizen...

Because you are driving a non motorized vehicle...the rules as in 100% of them apply to YOU... 100% of the fücking time, your duty of care to your fellow citizens and road users on the bike or crossing the road...the same... ie. a red light ? Yes ! You stop too... just all gotta go about driving safely...

amadangomor

McCrack wrote: »

Probably making a point you were sitting in the overtaking lane instead of keeping left

Possibly but both lanes of traffic were full as far as the eye could see I so was actually using it to overtake. No point driving in the inside lane when I would be boxed in behind a very slow moving vehicle.
I do like to leave a decent gap to the car in front. In his addled state/low intelligence mind maybe he saw this as me not keeping up with the traffic. In no way was he justified in undertaking though.

The swerve from outside lane to the exit was totally reckless and he should be off the road for life for that one.

McCrack

amadangomor wrote: »

Possibly but both lanes of traffic were full as far as the eye could see I so was actually using it to overtake. No point driving in the inside lane when I would be boxed in behind a very slow moving vehicle.
I do like to leave a decent gap to the car in front. In his addled state/low intelligence mind maybe he saw this as me not keeping up with the traffic. In no way was he justified in undertaking though.

The swerve from outside lane to the exit was totally reckless and he should be off the road for life for that one.

No need for dramatics with the should be taken off the road for life!

Point is if you are being overtaken on the left you are in the wrong lane (btw only lads that drive the hearses do "undertaking")

Also it's not the outside lane - its the overtaking lane and far too many people will happily sit in it forming a long queue - quite annoying - that along with middle lane hoggers - again wont keep left - it's crazy with the third lane opening on the N7 - vast majority will use the middle and overtaking lane and leave a full left lane virtually empty.

AndrewJRenko

Strumms wrote: »

In fairness Andrew, cyclists don’t kill two or three people per week because..

- the number of bike users is minuscule compared to drivers

I don't mean to be pedantic, but the number of bike users is not miniscule. People often underestimate cyclist numbers because cyclists take up so little space. It is smaller than the number of drivers, but more people cycle in Dublin than use Luas and DART combined. The percentage of cyclists has gone from 4% to 12% over the past 10 years.

Strumms wrote: »

- a bike will only travel usually a fraction of the speed of a vehicle

- the weight and mass of a bike is a tiny percentage of the weight and mass of a car...a bike can weigh maybe 15 kgs...a Toyota Corolla weights 1200 kgs, empty... 1.2 tonnes. So any accident is unlikely to be too serious.

Realistically unless a bike is pîssing it through a red light, ploughing into somebody crossing it CANNOT cause any life changing (life threatening) injury. That said I see shît loads of cyclists who cycle dangerously... in the city especially at every traffic light if you want to wait a small amount of time bikes WILL break the red as pedestrians try and cross...

Some cyclists are **** and cycle dangerously, some car drivers the same. Some pedestrians are also dangerous idiots walking out in front of traffic...

Fully agree, with the additional clarification that it's the dangerous idiots in cars that kill 2 or 3 people each week. This isn't about cyclists being better people or nicer people or loving the environment. This is about the reality that drivers of cars, vans and trucks kill people, mostly through avoidable collisions caused by inappropriate speed, phone use, drink driving or fatigued driving.

Strumms wrote: »

We need to forget about cyclists vs motorists vs pedestrians... we ALL have a fûcking duty of care to one another, whether we are sitting in a car, on a bike, crossing on foot or making your way to mass on a unicycle while eating a meatball marinara... this blame game rubbish doesn’t help the debate, everyone in transit has a responsibility to their fellow motorists and citizen...

Because you are driving a non motorized vehicle...the rules as in 100% of them apply to YOU... 100% of the fücking time, your duty of care to your fellow citizens and road users on the bike or crossing the road...the same... ie. a red light ? Yes ! You stop too... just all gotta go about driving safely...

Can I just clarify that you never break the speed limit in your car? Never, right? 100% of the fücking time, right?

Because if you're one of the 98% of drivers that breaks speed limits (one of the top three causes of road deaths), I won't be taking any lectures from you about how to cycle. Go sort out your fellow drivers to stop killing people and then we talk about the duty of care applies to everyone.

amadangomor

McCrack wrote: »

No need for dramatics with the should be taken off the road for life!

Point is if you are being overtaken on the left you are in the wrong lane (btw only lads that drive the hearses do "undertaking")

Also it's not the outside lane - its the overtaking lane and far too many people will happily sit in it forming a long queue - quite annoying - that along with middle lane hoggers - again wont keep left - it's crazy with the third lane opening on the N7 - vast majority will use the middle and overtaking lane and leave a full left lane virtually empty.

Yeh he feckin well should, he nearly caused a crash through recklessness. I don't want my family sharing the road with a **** like that.

There was a couple of miles of traffic ahead of me and behind me in the overtaking lane. Why would I move into the driving lane to get boxed in going at a snails pace? I was moving along as fast all the cars in the overtaking lane were going. I left a good gap because I know approaching the exit coming up the speed can drop from say 120 to 0 in a matter of seconds and I don't want to have to brake suddenly. This is nothing like your example, gain
some subtlety of thought please before you comment on stuff.

Steve F

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Like everything it’s a combination of things
Longer days in work
More stress at work
Less time at home
Longer commutes
More people on road
More people = more chance of accident = long delays

All of these plus more combine to a very irate Irish driver

Plus the fact most Irish drivers, myself included, are actually f**king awful drivers. No idea how to use lanes, roundabout, traffic lights , like the most basic thing on a car is indicators and 99% of drivers haven’t a fu*king clue. Plus you will always have some gobs**t with their fog lights on

Take the beeps, it’s only going to get worse not better

THIS!! Nailed it,esp FOG LIGHTS.Why do you always have them on?
Most are self cancelling which means you deliberately turn them on every journey? Genuine question

Dravokivich

Strumms wrote: »

In fairness Andrew, cyclists don’t kill two or three people per week because..

- the number of bike users is minuscule compared to drivers

- a bike will only travel usually a fraction of the speed of a vehicle

- the weight and mass of a bike is a tiny percentage of the weight and mass of a car...a bike can weigh maybe 15 kgs...a Toyota Corolla weights 1200 kgs, empty... 1.2 tonnes. So any accident is unlikely to be too serious.

Realistically unless a bike is pîssing it through a red light, ploughing into somebody crossing it CANNOT cause any life changing (life threatening) injury. That said I see shît loads of cyclists who cycle dangerously... in the city especially at every traffic light if you want to wait a small amount of time bikes WILL break the red as pedestrians try and cross...

Some cyclists are **** and cycle dangerously, some car drivers the same. Some pedestrians are also dangerous idiots walking out in front of traffic...

We need to forget about cyclists vs motorists vs pedestrians... we ALL have a fûcking duty of care to one another, whether we are sitting in a car, on a bike, crossing on foot or making your way to mass on a unicycle while eating a meatball marinara... this blame game rubbish doesn’t help the debate, everyone in transit has a responsibility to their fellow motorists and citizen...

Because you are driving a non motorized vehicle...the rules as in 100% of them apply to YOU... 100% of the fücking time, your duty of care to your fellow citizens and road users on the bike or crossing the road...the same... ie. a red light ? Yes ! You stop too... just all gotta go about driving safely...

This is a very poor argument to make.

It reads like you're supporting poor behaviour on the road by cyclists, because they have the least potential damage output?

Everyone using the road needs to understand they are accountable for their actions, regardless of their kill rating...

Thelonious Monk

Dravokivich wrote: »

This is a very poor argument to make.

It reads like you're supporting poor behaviour on the road by cyclists, because they have the least potential damage output?

Everyone using the road needs to understand they are accountable for their actions, regardless of their kill rating...

Yes, I don't support poor behaviour on bikes but it's pretty much a non issue as it never causes any problems. People on bicycles are never going to follow all the rules, much like pedestrians don't, or motorists. The motorists kill people, they should be the main focus.

Wibbs

I think while there are issues with navigating our roads no matter which form of transport you choose, I also think there's a helluva lot of exaggeration and hyperbole on this thread. "Most Irish drivers" aren't "f**king awful drivers". Our road safety is pretty good, about the same as Germany IIRC. It has certainly improved in my driving lifetime, even though when I started driving roads were less busy and outside of towns and cities mostly winding and narrow.

As for risk. Well that's been going down year on year. Drivers have the highest proportion of fatalities, followed by pedestrians, then motorbikes. Cyclists have the lowest. Fog lights on when not needed? I'd reckon I'd witness that a handful of times per year. Roundabout eejits? A couple of times a month, mostly minor though. Indicator use? Can be variable on motorways, but generally OK. In urban driving(Dublin in my case) indicator use seems pretty consistent to me. To the degree that when I see someone not using indicators correctly it stands out. Put it another way; two years back my car nearly failed the NCT on the horn not working. Turned out it was a simple fix of a lead that had fallen off. Thing is I hadn't noticed it and have no clue when the lead fell off in the previous year as I so rarely need to blow said horn.

General driving habits seem pretty OK to me. Sure you get the odd muppet, but it's not nearly the majority. I'd reckon about a third of drivers, cyclists and pedestrians (and people in general for that matter) are varying degrees of bloody useless, with a small percentage of them that yes should be off the road. Otherwise I dunno what roads some are driving on.

Chips Lovell

Wibbs wrote: »

Put it another way; two years back my car nearly failed the NCT on the horn not working. Turned out it was a simple fix of a lead that had fallen off.

Did you get much slagging about your horn failure?

Dravokivich

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Yes, I don't support poor behaviour on bikes but it's pretty much a non issue as it never causes any problems. People on bicycles are never going to follow all the rules, much like pedestrians don't, or motorists. The motorists kill people, they should be the main focus.

A cyclist who breaks through a red light and gets hit by a motorist, is at fault, not the motorist.

bullpost

Wibbs wrote: »

I think while there are issues with navigating our roads no matter which form of transport you choose, I also think there's a helluva lot of exaggeration and hyperbole on this thread. "Most Irish drivers" aren't "f**king awful drivers". Our road safety is pretty good, about the same as Germany IIRC. It has certainly improved in my driving lifetime, even though when I started driving roads were less busy and outside of towns and cities mostly winding and narrow.

As for risk. Well that's been going down year on year. Drivers have the highest proportion of fatalities, followed by pedestrians, then motorbikes. Cyclists have the lowest. Fog lights on when not needed? I'd reckon I'd witness that a handful of times per year. Roundabout eejits? A couple of times a month, mostly minor though. Indicator use? Can be variable on motorways, but generally OK. In urban driving(Dublin in my case) indicator use seems pretty consistent to me. To the degree that when I see someone not using indicators correctly it stands out. Put it another way; two years back my car nearly failed the NCT on the horn not working. Turned out it was a simple fix of a lead that had fallen off. Thing is I hadn't noticed it and have no clue when the lead fell off in the previous year as I so rarely need to blow said horn.

General driving habits seem pretty OK to me. Sure you get the odd muppet, but it's not nearly the majority. I'd reckon about a third of drivers, cyclists and pedestrians (and people in general for that matter) are varying degrees of bloody useless, with a small percentage of them that yes should be off the road. Otherwise I dunno what roads some are driving on.

You are talking way too much sense here. AH is about opinions, not facts .

But I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Thelonious Monk

Dravokivich wrote: »

A cyclist who breaks through a red light and gets hit by a motorist, is at fault, not the motorist.

No one is disputing that

LirW

Wibbs wrote: »

General driving habits seem pretty OK to me. Sure you get the odd muppet, but it's not nearly the majority. I'd reckon about a third of drivers, cyclists and pedestrians (and people in general for that matter) are varying degrees of bloody useless, with a small percentage of them that yes should be off the road. Otherwise I dunno what roads some are driving on.

To me, it depends on where you are. Between me and my husband we do drives all over the place covering the whole south east up to Dublin during the week.

When in Dublin, cyclists don't really bother me, I rarely ever see any doing stupid stuff. Pedestrians sometimes just crossing the road chancing it, inconvenient but nothing to worry about when you have your eyes on the road.
The M50 can be a nightmare at peak times with a lot of seriously dangerous driving with people tailgating, not indicating, cutting across and some trucks overtaking when completely unnecessary hogging on the middle lane right next to another truck.

But I live in a pretty remote part of the SE and things here are a bit different. The quality of the roads is bad with councils taking their sweet time to fix things. Good thing is that people usually know how to drive them.
There are a lot of drivers driving with no license, on continuous L-Plates or vehicles in bad shape. Some of them are noticably insecure drivers or not properly trained. But they generally get away with it because we have like 2 and a half guards covering the area in a 30km radius.
The former N11 was a free for all battlefield, I've seen some absolutely ridiculous maneuvers there. Up until recently there were roadworks going on and the people just ignorantly whizzing along unfinished roads right next to roadworkers in a 60 zone was crazy.
There is the old crux of the person doing 50 an 80 country road, while I get it's annoying, I try to get on with it, I can't change it but others see it as an invitation for dangerous overtaking maneuvers on windy roads. I'm not willing to risk my or my children's life for the sake of being home 5 minutes earlier.

And last but not least, of course everyone is a perfect driver and never makes a single mistake. It's always the others that are driving badly, never me, so everyone off the road because I'm the one true driving entity.

nigeldaniel

Drivers are definitely getting more bad-tempered. I have seen some seriously near deranged overtaking these last few years. Cars and jeeps literally bouncing like balls as they rampage over bad roads been another.

Strumms

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I don't mean to be pedantic, but the number of bike users is not miniscule. People often underestimate cyclist numbers because cyclists take up so little space. It is smaller than the number of drivers, but more people cycle in Dublin than use Luas and DART combined. The percentage of cyclists has gone from 4% to 12% over the past 10 years.






Can I just clarify that you never break the speed limit in your car? Never, right? 100% of the fücking time, right?

Because if you're one of the 98% of drivers that breaks speed limits (one of the top three causes of road deaths), I won't be taking any lectures from you about how to cycle. Go sort out your fellow drivers to stop killing people and then we talk about the duty of care applies to everyone.

Taking lectures from me ? No you certainly don’t have to take a lecture from me, primarily because I’m not giving you a lecture. I’m simply like anyone, engaging in the debate and discussion.

Have I ever broken the speed limit ? Of course, if I did or do I’d simply accept it and move on, learn from it and attempt to be more courteous and respectful of my fellow road user. I certainly don’t systematically or deliberately attempt to go over the speed limit.

What I certainly won’t do is advocate poor and unsafe cycling just because some other road users are unsafe drivers. I find it bizarre that you are seemingly saying that.

Go sort out my fellow drivers ? Unfortunately I’m responsible for myself once I get behind the wheel of a car. The Gardai are responsible for the policing of the roads and relevant applicable laws. So I am unable to ‘sort out’ anyone, sorry to disappoint.

the beer revolu

Wibbs wrote: »

Fog lights on when not needed? I'd reckon I'd witness that a handful of times per year.

You must only drive in the dark a handful of times per year or else you are extremely unobservant.

I estimate around one in 5 cars had their fogs on all the time.

Wibbs

Strumms wrote: »

Taking lectures from me ? No you certainly don’t have to take a lecture from me, primarily because I’m not giving you a lecture. I’m simply like anyone, engaging in the debate and discussion.

Indeed S, though I've found people who like to lecture from their lofty pony assume everyone else is and that's what you're seeing there.

the beer revolu wrote: »

You must only drive in the dark a handful of times per year or else you are extremely unobservant.

I estimate around one in 5 cars had their fogs on all the time.

Nope. I'd drive in the dark a couple of times a week and drive a car that's lower to the ground than most so fogs are right in my eyeline and no way in hell are 1 in 5 driving with their fogs on. It might be the case on other roads but certainly not on the roads I drive(mostly around Dublin, Wicklow). I have of late noticed a couple of cars driving without any lights in well lit urban areas, but again bloody rare and notable because of that.

Steve F

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wibbs View Post
Fog lights on when not needed? I'd reckon I'd witness that a handful of times per year.

the beer revolu wrote: »

You must only drive in the dark a handful of times per year or else you are extremely unobservant.

I estimate around one in 5 cars had their fogs on all the time.

Agree..this time of year regardless of weather/Driving conditions at least 1 in 5 maybe more have front foglights on dazzling other drivers.
I'm almost certain there is a law that comes under misuse of lights whilst driving
Another law not enforced :pac:

Steve F

Here ya go
https://www.thejournal.ie/when-to-use-fog-lights-3742588-Dec2017/

Penalties for misuse of fog lights are €1,000 in the case of a first offence and €2,000 in the case of a second, third or subsequent offence

using fog lights in clear weather causes glare and a risk of dazzling other road users. This is why it is a motoring offence to use fog lights inappropriately.

Pinch Flat

Steve F wrote: »

Here ya go
https://www.thejournal.ie/when-to-use-fog-lights-3742588-Dec2017/

Penalties for misuse of fog lights are €1,000 in the case of a first offence and €2,000 in the case of a second, third or subsequent offence

using fog lights in clear weather causes glare and a risk of dazzling other road users. This is why it is a motoring offence to use fog lights inappropriately.

The irony being that the same tools who drive around with them on when it's not foggy, probably don't use them properly when they are needed in fog.

Steve F

Pinch Flat wrote: »

The irony being that the same tools who drive around with them on when it's not foggy, probably don't use them properly when they are needed in fog.

Wibbs

Steve F wrote: »

Agree..this time of year regardless of weather/Driving conditions at least 1 in 5 maybe more have front foglights on dazzling other drivers.

Front fogs? I would suspect that a very large chunk of those are actually xenon or LED lights, which in some car models, particularly SUVs and crossovers are quite dazzling, especially if you're in a normal saloon car, where they shine right into your retinas. Being of a cooler colour temperature doesn't help either. The old style halogens being warmer and weaker don't dazzle nearly so much.

the beer revolu

Wibbs wrote: »

Front fogs? I would suspect that a very large chunk of those are actually xenon or LED lights, which in some car models, particularly SUVs and crossovers are quite dazzling, especially if you're in a normal saloon car, where they shine right into your retinas. Being of a cooler colour temperature doesn't help either. The old style halogens being warmer and weaker don't dazzle nearly so much.

No. Fog lights.
You know the ones at the bottom that make your car look cooler!

work

murphyebass wrote: »

Sigh. So cyclists are perfect yeah?

I saw three bikes this evening doing silly things from having zero lights and dark clothing to running red lights to swerving in and out towards traffic.

Motorists definitely do silly things every day of the week but Christ there are some very stupid cyclists out there too.

How more aren’t killed or seriously injured daily (particularly in Dublin) is an absolute miracle.

Based on what I witness daily drivers should get a ****in medal for not mowing more of ye down quite frankly.

The ignorance is insane:
1) Who said cyclists were perfect, only you?

2) Good you counted the number of poor cyclists, did you consider the drivers (perhaps just look at the evidence available). The stats of the driver killing is 1000's that of a car so though both shouldn't break the law it is much more serious if a driver does it.
3) the last line is disgusting and beyond ignorant (talking about mowing people down). The type of thing that someone who shouldn't be allowed drive, cycle or be in charge of a pair of runners might say.


Anyway good luck in your bubble of ignorance an education or open mind is not something that will trouble you.

buried

Getting very bad the last few days on the motorways. People seem to be on a definite mission to kill themselves and a good few others in the process.

AndrewJRenko

Strumms wrote: »

Taking lectures from me ? No you certainly don’t have to take a lecture from me, primarily because I’m not giving you a lecture. I’m simply like anyone, engaging in the debate and discussion.

In fairness, when you say stuff like "the rules as in 100% of them apply to YOU... 100% of the fücking time, your duty of care to your fellow citizens and road users on the bike or crossing the road...the same... ie. a red light ? Yes ! You stop too... ", you go a bit further. You are literally telling me what to do.

Strumms wrote: »

Have I ever broken the speed limit ? Of course, if I did or do I’d simply accept it and move on, learn from it and attempt to be more courteous and respectful of my fellow road user. I certainly don’t systematically or deliberately attempt to go over the speed limit.

Do you see the inherent hypocrisy of habitual speedsters lecturing cyclists about breaking red lights? Isn't it noticeable how the excuses for speeding flow (not systemic or deliberate) but a cyclist going through a red light is somehow inexcusable ("100% of the time"). A slight double standard, no?

Strumms wrote: »

What I certainly won’t do is advocate poor and unsafe cycling just because some other road users are unsafe drivers. I find it bizarre that you are seemingly saying that.

Did I actually say that? Not seemingly - actually? We might progress more if you argue with what I actually said rather than what I seemingly said, especially when I didn't actually say what you say that I seemingly said.

Strumms wrote: »

Go sort out my fellow drivers ? Unfortunately I’m responsible for myself once I get behind the wheel of a car. The Gardai are responsible for the policing of the roads and relevant applicable laws. So I am unable to ‘sort out’ anyone, sorry to disappoint.

I'm frequently amazed by the enthusiasm of some drivers to 'fix' cyclists and cycling and tell them what to do, but when it comes to other drivers (the ones who actually kill people on the road, week in week out), it is all 'oh no, nothing to do with me'. Again, a slight double standard perhaps?

the beer revolu wrote: »

You must only drive in the dark a handful of times per year or else you are extremely unobservant.

I estimate around one in 5 cars had their fogs on all the time.

I wouldn't say one in five with their rear fogs on, but it is probably close to one in five that has something dodgy with their lights, whether a broken brake light or two, or a broken back light, or an entire light cluster on one side out (no back or brake light), or no back lights at all because they don't know how to work their DRLs, or no lights at all because they've just come out of the underground car park or whatever.

The look of confusion on their face when you tell them that they've no back lights because they don't know how to work their DRLs always leaves me a bit worried about their competence to actually control their vehicle.

Wibbs wrote: »

I think while there are issues with navigating our roads no matter which form of transport you choose, I also think there's a helluva lot of exaggeration and hyperbole on this thread. "Most Irish drivers" aren't "f**king awful drivers". Our road safety is pretty good, about the same as Germany IIRC. It has certainly improved in my driving lifetime, even though when I started driving roads were less busy and outside of towns and cities mostly winding and narrow.

As for risk. Well that's been going down year on year. Drivers have the highest proportion of fatalities, followed by pedestrians, then motorbikes. Cyclists have the lowest. Fog lights on when not needed? I'd reckon I'd witness that a handful of times per year. Roundabout eejits? A couple of times a month, mostly minor though. Indicator use? Can be variable on motorways, but generally OK. In urban driving(Dublin in my case) indicator use seems pretty consistent to me. To the degree that when I see someone not using indicators correctly it stands out. Put it another way; two years back my car nearly failed the NCT on the horn not working. Turned out it was a simple fix of a lead that had fallen off. Thing is I hadn't noticed it and have no clue when the lead fell off in the previous year as I so rarely need to blow said horn.

General driving habits seem pretty OK to me. Sure you get the odd muppet, but it's not nearly the majority. I'd reckon about a third of drivers, cyclists and pedestrians (and people in general for that matter) are varying degrees of bloody useless, with a small percentage of them that yes should be off the road. Otherwise I dunno what roads some are driving on.

I can only refer to my typical daily experience on the road seeing multiple drivers doing illegal stuff, and selfish stuff, and dangerous stuff and sometimes all three.

On every journey, I see multiple drivers using their phones while driving. I see multiple drivers each week with video playing on their phones. I see drivers with small kids in the front seat. I see drivers change lane without indicating or checking their mirrors. I see drivers opening doors without checking for cyclists.

I don't have to work particularly hard to see this stuff, it's happening all the time.

And these findings are backed up by a whole range of formal and informal research - the RSA Speed Surveys showing 50%-98% of drivers breaking speed limits depending on the category - the Liberty Insurance survey showing the majority of drivers use their phones while driving - the Luas red light camera showing that 88% of red light jumpers are motorists.

Most drivers break the law on every journey.

Plumbthedepths

Thread has descended into a motorist versus cyclist spat no surprise there considering who the main protagonist is.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-rail-truck-sutton-4968830-Jan2020/

See this is what happens when motorists break lights, as opposed to cyclists. You hold up a whole city ffs!

Plumbthedepths

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-rail-truck-sutton-4968830-Jan2020/

See this is what happens when motorists break lights, as opposed to cyclists. You hold up a whole city ffs!

Read the article and it says delays between Howth and Howth junction. It is possible to make a point without resorting to hyperbolic nonsense.

Thelonious Monk

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Read the article and it says delays between Howth and Howth junction. It is possible to make a point without resorting to hyperbolic nonsense.

Yeah, the dart is f*cked. These things cause serious delays on the dart, I live on the dorsch line don't you know.

AndrewJRenko

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Read the article and it says delays between Howth and Howth junction. It is possible to make a point without resorting to hyperbolic nonsense.

I'm not being smart, but do you know how train lines work? Trains can't take a diversion.

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-rail-truck-sutton-4968830-Jan2020/

See this is what happens when motorists break lights, as opposed to cyclists. You hold up a whole city ffs!

What an outrageous claim. You should really educate yourself by reading the Journal comments. You would then learn that it's never the driver's fault;

Irish Rail must have the slowest barriers in Europe. Would drive you mad waiting at them. In the Netherlands lights flash, barriers drop, train whooshes by at speed, barriers go up in what seems like a few seconds. Hard to blame drivers here for getting frustrated. Irish Rail need to buck up.

All these level crossings should be bypassed. Either raise the track, move it underground or build a road bridge. During rush hour the dart frequency is such that the constant barrier closures, coupled with high traffic volumes, causes delays to road traffic resulting in massive tailbacks; particularly at merrion gates where it is not unusual to be waiting for three trains to pass before the barrier rises to allow traffic through. I’m not trying to excuse the truck driver, but I can at least understand why people do these stupid things.

Plumbthedepths

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Yeah, the dart is f*cked. These things cause serious delays on the dart, I live on the dorsch line don't you know.

I don't care where you live, but it would be nice to see comments without hyperbolic nonsense being part of it. Sure you have claimed you cycle to work everyday, the Dart won't affect you.

Plumbthedepths

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I'm not being smart, but do you know how train lines work? Trains can't take a diversion.



What an outrageous claim. You should really educate yourself by reading the Journal comments. You would then learn that it's never the driver's fault;

You're right you're not being smart, I could tell you what are being but I will leave that up to others to work out.
So you also agree the whole city is at a standstill? People can't walk, take a different route bus cycle, city is in lockdown ?. You didn't really think now before you waded in with your usual reply.

noinc

Steve F wrote: »

I find it strange that they are called "fog lights" and few idiots don't know that and the same goes for front lights. Too many idiots parked with dipped lights on etc but the hazard warning lights are a long standing joke.

donvito99

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

You're right you're not being smart, I could tell you what are being but I will leave that up to others to work out.
So you also agree the whole city is at a standstill? People can't walk, take a direct route bus cycle, city is in lockdown ?. You didn't really think now before you waded in with your usual reply.

The whole city is not at a standstill as something like 1500 people per train are moving safely through the crossing whilst a few dozen motorists have to wait a few minutes.

Plumbthedepths

donvito99 wrote: »

The whole city is not at a standstill as something like 1500 people per train are moving safely through the crossing whilst a few dozen motorists have to wait a few minutes.

I didn't say it was that would be the poster I responded to Mr T Monk and his colleague.

Thelonious Monk

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I don't care where you live, but it would be nice to see comments without hyperbolic nonsense being part of it. Sure you have claimed you cycle to work everyday, the Dart won't affect you.

I cycle most days yes, I'll be taking the dorsch home later though, should be cleared up by then

Plumbthedepths

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I cycle most days yes, I'll be taking the dorsch home later though, should be cleared up by then

So what are you whinging about and as mentioned by a poster above trains are going through and the whole city is not blocked as you claimed it was.

Thelonious Monk

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

So what are you whinging about and as mentioned by a poster above trains are going through and the whole city is not blocked as you claimed it was.

God you're so pedantic... My point was motorists who break lights cause serious problems. Read the article, no services between Howth and HJ, and knock on effects for all dart services and other commuter lines.
All this because some idiot was impatient with lights. That's pretty bad imo.