Should Labour and the Soc Dems merge?

Jonny one

I believe the next government will be a super rainbow of FF/Labour/Soc Dems/Greens/independents and that Labour and the soc Dems will merge after that government.

James Brown

Phoebas wrote: »

This bit I agree with in relation to the Labour party.

They made a risky move by going into power with FG when others preferred to sit on their hands.
We now have FF - the architects of the destruction of the country - rehabilitated, while Labour are still villified for playing a bad hand in good faith.

For how many more generations do we have to wait until the left in Ireland put aside their purist tendancies and accept that excercising power means having to make choices you'd prefer not to make?

Choosing not to validate the then Kenny government and their policies is not sitting on your hands. Signing up and pushing their policies was risky but not ethical for a Labour party IMO.
No point in making choices that go against your reason for being and the people who voted for you. The disadvantage of standing for something and then playing with FF/FG, killed off many a party.

James Brown

is_that_so wrote: »

Forever, because promising common sense is not a vote-getter.

Fairytale.
Kenny's FG did very well out of telling it like it was, only falling foul when they returned to form.
Labours fault was backing them in it and not holding them to account.

Loafing Oaf

Jonny one wrote: »

I believe the next government will be a super rainbow of FF/Labour/Soc Dems/Greens/independents and that Labour and the soc Dems will merge after that government.

Don't believe the numbers will be there for this, unless the Greens make a massive leap forward.

Marcos

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Labourer are toxic, would not touch them with a barge pole.

I had great hope for the Soc Dems but some of their candidate selection has been absolutely woeful. Other candidates seem to be going way off message and they are a bit disjointed. In Catherine Murphy they have the best TD in the country but I think she has lost the run of the party.

Ellie Kisyombe anyone?

They had such goodwill when they set up based on the excellent work that Catherine Murphy did on the Siteserv / Irish Water fiasco. Also with Stephen Donnelly they looked like they actually had the makings of being a proper opposition party, as opposed to a pretend opposition such as Labour are*.

I don't know what Roisin Shortall brought to the mix, other than making up the numbers. But after they formed they went right down the identity politics rabbit hole. Maybe that's why Stephen Donnelly left so suddenly?

*We all know that given the first chance to get back into power and get the ministerial mercs and perks that they will jump at the chance.

Dyr

TBH don't Labour havent really represented anybody in a long time, they're basically a gang of long term carpet baggers, ex-stickies, careerist SIPTU officials, journos etc. who stuck together and made a gig out of being the party you vote for if you don't vote FG/FG. Their only constituency is well to do urban liberals and FG have a lot of that demograph sewn up which is why Labour used to live off FG transfers for seats.

And with Labour dead, SF will become that party It's already happening, Liada Ni Riada and such.

AndrewJRenko

Marcos wrote: »

Ellie Kisyombe anyone?

They had such goodwill when they set up based on the excellent work that Catherine Murphy did on the Siteserv / Irish Water fiasco. Also with Stephen Donnelly they looked like they actually had the makings of being a proper opposition party, as opposed to a pretend opposition such as Labour are*.

I don't know what Roisin Shortall brought to the mix, other than making up the numbers. But after they formed they went right down the identity politics rabbit hole. Maybe that's why Stephen Donnelly left so suddenly?

*We all know that given the first chance to get back into power and get the ministerial mercs and perks that they will jump at the chance.

Murphy and Shortall were far more natural bedfellows than Murphy and Donnelly.

Shouldn't any political party be jumping at the chance to get into power? What's the point in being in politics to sit on the opposition benches for ever?

Phoebas

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Murphy and Shortall were far more natural bedfellows than Murphy and Donnelly.

Shouldn't any political party be jumping at the chance to get into power? What's the point in being in politics to sit on the opposition benches for ever?

Being in government means spending your political capital and eventually being kicked out.

The real gravy train is getting embedded in perpetual opposition, make a lot of noise about how poor the government is, but whatever you do, don't ever assume the responsibility of weilding actual power.

James Brown

Phoebas wrote: »

Being in government means spending your political capital and eventually being kicked out.

The real gravy train is getting embedded in perpetual opposition, make a lot of noise about how poor the government is, but whatever you do, don't ever assume the responsibility of weilding actual power.

So FF, (Haughey, Ahern etc. etc.) and FG, (Lawlor, Dara Murphy etc.) are in it for the people not the money?

Bobtheman

The labour party got unfairly blamed for austerity. Without them public services would have been decimated further by FG.
I would love to see a merger of SF/Labour.
SF are now the major party of the left in numbers.
A more natural merger would be SF taking over Labour.
There has been a huge amount of bull**** spoken about FF/lab/ green coalition. The numbers just won't be there.

Bobtheman

Matt Barrett wrote: »

So FF, (Haughey, Ahern etc. etc.) and FG, (Lawlor, Dara Murphy etc.) are in it for the people not the money?

I think you miss the essential point. People before profit will never gather more than 3 seats and have no intention of making the compromises necessary to get into power. Outside of SF/lab/Sdp - the rest of the left in Ireland is pertually splitting. The people's front of judea ( life of Brian )

Annasopra

Bobtheman wrote: »

The labour party got unfairly blamed for austerity. Without them public services would have been decimated further by FG.
I would love to see a merger of SF/Labour.
SF are now the major party of the left in numbers.
A more natural merger would be SF taking over Labour.
There has been a huge amount of bull**** spoken about FF/lab/ green coalition. The numbers just won't be there.

Nah. Really at their heart Nationalism and Socialism are incompatible. Nationalists put nations borders and flags first, socialists put people first.

James Brown

Bobtheman wrote: »

I think you miss the essential point. People before profit will never gather more than 3 seats and have no intention of making the compromises necessary to get into power. Outside of SF/lab/Sdp - the rest of the left in Ireland is pertually splitting. The people's front of judea ( life of Brian )

So you meant unlikely to get in, not don't want to. You inferred they were in politics for the money, happy to sit on the opposition gravy train.
So anyone serious about politics should join FF or FG so they get in?

Annasopra

Matt Barrett wrote: »

So you meant unlikely to get in, not don't want to. You inferred they were in politics for the money, happy to sit on the opposition gravy train.

Ye wha? The far left doesnt ever want to govern. It just wants to protest.

Dyr

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Nah. Really at their heart Nationalism and Socialism are incompatible. Nationalists put nations borders and flags first, socialists put people ideologies first.

Looks about right now

Better Than Christ

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Ye wha? The far left doesnt ever want to govern. It just wants to protest.

They do, but their prospects are limited by the fact that they've never been prepared to sell out like Labour.

AndrewJRenko

Better Than Christ wrote: »

They do, but their prospects are limited by the fact that they've never been prepared to sell out like Labour.

Check out Paul Murphy's interview on the Journal where he says that he could never see himself in Government.

Better Than Christ

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Check out Paul Murphy's interview on the Journal where he says that he could never see himself in Government.

Can you provide a link to that interview?

Phoebas

Better Than Christ wrote: »

They do, but their prospects are limited by the fact that they've never been prepared to sell out like Labour.

That's the crux of it.
Those parties see compromise as selling out, so they don't see themselves as parties of government; they see their own purpose as protest/opposition parties.

We're all but guaranteed unstable minority governments led by either FF or FG with no left alternative.

AndrewJRenko

Better Than Christ wrote: »

Can you provide a link to that interview?

I probably could,, but did you try searching for it yourself first?

Captain Flaps

Sesame wrote: »

But Zappone, and some of the my local Mep candidates.

I had a lot of time for Zappone and I went out knocking on doors with her during the marriage referendum but the way she handled the Scouting Ireland stuff and her recent vote to continue funding the greyhound industry has taken her out of consideration for me unfortunately.

Idbatterim

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Anyone affected by the housing crisis or business by the insurance issues might go for a party that represents people who actually get up early of a morning. Long before the right wing spin, the left was about working people.
Speaking if names, the 'Labour' party, the 'workers' party.

Math I agree with the other posters comment. When it came to potential reform fg promised at the onset of the crisis. Number one wanting to retain the status quo, were labour

Idbatterim

Phoebas wrote: »

Being in government means spending your political capital and eventually being kicked out.

The real gravy train is getting embedded in perpetual opposition, make a lot of noise about how poor the government is, but whatever you do, don't ever assume the responsibility of weilding actual power.

Yeah. All the perks. No cons , go knocking on a door as a fg candidate now. Now do the same for every other party other than ff. “ sure aren’t they all the same “ “ years in power and things are getting worse “ one options gets you a free pass. The other , dogs abuse (a lot of it , of there own doing )

Idbatterim

Phoebas wrote: »

That's the crux of it.
Those parties see compromise as selling out, so they don't see themselves as parties of government; they see their own purpose as protest/opposition parties.

We're all but guaranteed unstable minority governments led by either FF or FG with no left alternative.

And no right alternative

Idbatterim

Bobtheman wrote: »

The labour party got unfairly blamed for austerity. Without them public services would have been decimated further by FG.
I would love to see a merger of SF/Labour.
SF are now the major party of the left in numbers.
A more natural merger would be SF taking over Labour.
There has been a huge amount of bull**** spoken about FF/lab/ green coalition. The numbers just won't be there.

I’d never vote Labour. But you hit the nail on the head. They actually played a blinder for those that voted for them. Propped up the welfare state , public sector protected. Keep the status quo. They were pure delusional with labours way or Frankfurt’s way. We had the begging bowl out! Imagine we had to balance the books , that would have been really “ hard decisions “ what hard decisions were taken ? Borrowing tens of billions to be paid by the taxpayer ? To keep the gravy train flowing ? Spare me. And Joan burton was right about the water protestors and their latest I phones. But she should have thrown in all the latest rip off gear straight out of Bangladesh that they buy for extortionate prices in jd sports. The worlds busiest dominos not far from where she was kept prisoner!

Better Than Christ

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I probably could,, but did you try searching for it yourself first?

I did and I couldn't find it. That's why I was asking.

Jamie X

Idbatterim wrote: »

I’d never vote Labour. But you hit the nail on the head. They actually played a blinder for those that voted for them. Propped up the welfare state , public sector protected. Keep the status quo. They were pure delusional with labours way or Frankfurt’s way. We had the begging bowl out! Imagine we had to balance the books , that would have been really “ hard decisions “ what hard decisions were taken ? Borrowing tens of billions to be paid by the taxpayer ? To keep the gravy train flowing ? Spare me. And Joan burton was right about the water protestors and their latest I phones. But she should have thrown in all the latest rip off gear straight out of Bangladesh that they buy for extortionate prices in jd sports. The worlds busiest dominos not far from where she was kept prisoner!

Labour slased dole by 50% for under 26s, the same demographic who voted for them en masse in 2011.

Idbatterim

Jamie X wrote: »

Labour slased dole by 50% for under 26s, the same demographic who voted for them en masse in 2011.

Labour didnt win that many seats, you'd swear they had a majority!

AndrewJRenko

Better Than Christ wrote: »

I did and I couldn't find it. That's why I was asking.

Fourth in the search result list.

AndrewJRenko

Jamie X wrote: »

Labour slased dole by 50% for under 26s, the same demographic who voted for them en masse in 2011.

They also dramatically cut public service salaries and public service numbers, the worst of which cuts are still in place today, with no plan for them to be restored.