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Women Only Professorships
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The sad fact is, any woman who gets one of these postings will not be seen as an academic equal by her male and female peers. She will simply be seen as a political appointment, not based on ability, but which way the genitals are facing.0
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lainey_d_123 wrote: »The point is that plenty of men got their position BECAUSE they were men!!!
Why is this such a challenge to understand?
There are lots of men in positions where they were not the best candidate for the job, but they were a 'good fit' for the job, chosen by people just like them. I've seen it with my own eyes.
Anyone who believes that a department is 90% men because the women aren't good enough to get the jobs is sexist or delusional.
I work in a tech consultancy. We have no women in tech. Practically no women apply for roles with us despite the fact that we pay highly, have great work life balance and have probably the best rep in our sector of the business.
We finally found a single suitable candidate for a role last year but the applicant took a role elsewhere for crazy money. Everyone is crying out for female staff to the point that they will outbid each other on run of the mill candidates simply because they are female.
Yet we STILL get practical no female applicants. At what point does this become an issue of the choices women are making?0 -
TheValeyard wrote: »The sad fact is, any woman who gets one of these postings will not be seen as an academic equal by her male and female peers. She will simply be seen as a political appointment, not based on ability, but which way the genitals are facing.
I would love to say rightly so but academia is very much left leaning and they will probably be progressive heroes.0 -
I work in a tech consultancy. We have no women in tech. Practically no women apply for roles with us despite the fact that we pay highly, have great work life balance and have probably the best rep in our sector of the business.
We finally found a single suitable candidate for a role last year but the applicant took a role elsewhere for crazy money. Everyone is crying out for female staff to the point that they will outbid each other on run of the mill candidates simply because they are female.
Yet we STILL get practical no female applicants. At what point does this become an issue of the choices women are making?
Your wrong it's the patriarchy keeping women down, the tech consultancy sector is just sexist.0 -
Totally backward and will undermine our universities.
Minister O'Connor isn't the brightest.0 -
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Maybe males have a greater aptitude for certain subjects and skills.
And women have a greater aptitude for different subjects and skills.0 -
I was wondering why they didn't do the same for primary school where there is a deficiency of men applying.
The only conclusion I can come to is because there isn't a lack of women applying for professorships in 3rd level.... But rather they are applying but the interviewing panel is favouring men.
Maybe look at how the interview panel is made up rather than tokenism.0 -
lainey_d_123 wrote: »The point is that plenty of men got their position BECAUSE they were men!!!
Why is this such a challenge to understand?
There are lots of men in positions where they were not the best candidate for the job, but they were a 'good fit' for the job, chosen by people just like them. I've seen it with my own eyes.
Anyone who believes that a department is 90% men because the women aren't good enough to get the jobs is sexist or delusional.
Or we believe that women make different career choices and the best qualified and suitable candidates for jobs should rise to the top. I wouldn't care if a department was 100% women as long as it's a given that they got those positions due to their credentials and experience, regardless of their sex. I wouldn't see that and think "but muh gender imbalances, muh representation" like loads of women seem to get worked up over. Just because perhaps there was such an attitude that men were naturally more suited for the job in the past doesn't mean it's going to continue from now into the future. The world is a lot more aware of the necessity to treat women equally and so provided women get the qualifications and experience these things will naturally balance themselves out going forward, into the future. Rushing to get to that point by discriminating against one sex is simply moronic. Any discrimination is bad and shouldn't happen, ever from this point onwards. What needs to be concentrated on is ensuring that no woman, or man, goes through a similar experience as you where their teacher discourages them from entering their ideal industry.
All secondary students should be given access to information about every course and industry which includes evidence that there are women and men working in them all. Personal experiences from an equal number of men and women currently in the degrees and working in the industry would be a good idea. People working in career guidance should all be trained to try to instill confidence in all students that they can enter whichever industry they have an interest in. Then it's up to each individual to follow their own choices and pursue their careers0 -
Are there male only postings?
Just like women aren't clamouring to work in mines, clean sewers, collect bins, oil rigs, backbreaking construction jobs etc.?? I'd say you're quite happy to live in a nice apartment or house and turn on the heating or the lights whenever you want. Where do you think all that stuff comes from?
Well funnily enough, there is a big physical disadvantage for women doing those jobs. There are plenty of equivalent manual jobs done by women. Where are the equivalent well-paid jobs for the women who are locked out of STEM?0 -
I was wondering why they didn't do the same for primary school where there is a deficiency of men applying.
The only conclusion I can come to is because there isn't a lack of women applying for professorships in 3rd level.... But rather they are applying but the interviewing panel is favouring men.
Maybe look at how the interview panel is made up rather than tokenism.
This is the problem...the biased selection process.
And how are you going to make up an interview panel with equal numbers of men and women if the place is full of men???0 -
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I dunno. Back in my day, girls must have been tougher. If a teacher ever mistakenly suggested something to you like you should not do this, or you cannot do that ir you will be isolated if you go there, the inner reaction was fcuk you, WATCH me do it. And that was from a very shy nerdy girl.
I studied in a male dominated college course, and I was the first of any gender in my extended family to go to college We were working class and going through college meant pulling 8 hour shifts in Abrakebabra till 4 am 3 nights a week and living in bedsits that people would be ashamed to house a cat in these days. Life is tough, be tougher. I had girl friends who studied engineering, medicine, physics, accountancy, wait for it - gasp - in the fecking mid 80s!! They were perfectly normal before, during and after, and needed no trauma counselling and took up careers thereafter as suited their desires, full time, part time, top of their fields if they had ambition, middle ground if it suited them better, not at all if they prefered something completely different like living barefoot in the mountains.
Did something awful happen in the last 3 or 4 decades that nobody told me about?0 -
I work in a tech consultancy. We have no women in tech. Practically no women apply for roles with us despite the fact that we pay highly, have great work life balance and have probably the best rep in our sector of the business.
We finally found a single suitable candidate for a role last year but the applicant took a role elsewhere for crazy money. Everyone is crying out for female staff to the point that they will outbid each other on run of the mill candidates simply because they are female.
Yet we STILL get practical no female applicants. At what point does this become an issue of the choices women are making?
Yes, blame the women for not applying and not the fact that the entire sector has historically been extremely hostile to women. I absolutely loved programming as a kid and yet didn't choose comp sci as my degree...why? Because I hated being in the only girl in the class, subject to sexist 'jokes', not being credited for my work. It wasn't until I got old enough and angry enough at being underemployed with my sh1tty Arts degree that I decided to move into tech finally...and I still get plenty of stupid comments about being a 'diversity hire' from men who weren't even born yet when I was starting programming.
But yeah, let's blame women for the 'choices' they're making.0 -
lainey_d_123 wrote: »This is the problem...the biased selection process.
And how are you going to make up an interview panel with equal numbers of men and women if the place is full of men???
There is no evidence of biased selection. There is no evidence that men mostly like to hire other men. 55% of lecturers are female and most postdoc and PhD students are female. Universities are very mixed and have been for decades and decades. Professors job is to research. Being female doesnt make you more likely to make discoveries.0 -
lainey_d_123 wrote: »Because it's a cycle. If certain education paths are careers are hugely male dominated, young girls and women are given the message 'this isn't for me'. I've always been a giant computer nerd but was massively put off by being the only girl in the class in secondary. My teacher even openly dissuaded me from doing a comp sci degree because of how isolating it would be, surrounded by only male students and taught by all male professors. It's intimidating and annoying. I wanted to learn, not have to listen to stupid comments and faux compliments about how I was good at coding 'for a girl' when I was the best student in the class.
It's also a well known fact that there is massive bias in hiring in that people tend to hire people who are like themselves. This is not only gendered - it also manifests in things like class/background/accent, but in certain professions, an all-male interview panel means it's highly likely that they'll choose a new hire who is just like them because they'll 'fit in' better, regardless of which candidate is actually more competent. I went through a number of software developer interviews fairly recently (in the last 18 months) and was rejected from more than one for not being a 'cultural fit'. They might as well have come out and said it's because I'm a woman. I got through all the technical challenges just fine and I interviewed well. I just knew when I saw the office full of men with beards in black T shirts that I was never going to get the job, and lo and behold I was right.
Lots of men in this field like to believe that women don't get hired because they're not good enough or that any woman hire is automatically a 'diversity hire'. I've now been on panels myself where a man had to be talked through the simplest challenges and couldn't answer the most basic questions, and yet the men on the panel wanted to hire him because he 'seemed cool', i.e. just like them. They didn't want to hire the 43-year-old single mother because it would mean having to stop swearing constantly in the office and holding meetings in the pub, not because she lacked technical skills and ability.
I understand that men feel hard done by by initiatives which encourage hiring women but honestly...it doesn't even begin to make up for the years of disadvantage women have faced in STEM fields.
My experience is the polar opposite. More than half my lecturers were female. I graduated from a class with only 2 female students (to 25 male).Neither of which was fantastic academically but they were both the first picked up by multinationals for engineering roles while better students didn't fair so well. Where I work now most of the female applicants are for BA or tester roles. More women than men get hired for those roles. If a female engineer applies you can guarantee they have the job. There's huge demand for female engineers.
The actual disparity is caused by the lack of women in software development and engineering which is why there's huge demand for female engineers and a lot more men with the experience required for senior roles.
Something tells me if you as an experienced female engineer are struggling and getting feedback of "it's not a good cultural fit" your interviews are absolutely horrendous.0 -
lainey_d_123 wrote: »Yes, blame the women for not applying and not the fact that the entire sector has historically been extremely hostile to women. I absolutely loved programming as a kid and yet didn't choose comp sci as my degree...why? Because I hated being in the only girl in the class, subject to sexist 'jokes', not being credited for my work. It wasn't until I got old enough and angry enough at being underemployed with my sh1tty Arts degree that I decided to move into tech finally...and I still get plenty of stupid comments about being a 'diversity hire' from men who weren't even born yet when I was starting programming.
But yeah, let's blame women for the 'choices' they're making.
This is incredible, I'm telling you we will overlook any number of issues and pay over the odds just to get a women into our org but we can't get one.
The only viable applicant we had last year waltzed into another role she was underqualified for on a salary way over the odds precisely because she was female. Yet we STILL can't get women to hire. We are screaming for women to hire.0 -
Or we believe that women make different career choices and the best qualified and suitable candidates for jobs should rise to the top. I wouldn't care if a department was 100% women as long as it's a given that they got those positions due to their credentials and experience, regardless of their sex. I wouldn't see that and think "but muh gender imbalances, muh representation" like loads of women seem to get worked up over. Just because perhaps there was such an attitude that men were naturally more suited for the job in the past doesn't mean it's going to continue from now into the future. The world is a lot more aware of the necessity to treat women equally and so provided women get the qualifications and experience these things will naturally balance themselves out going forward, into the future. Rushing to get to that point by discriminating against one sex is simply moronic. Any discrimination is bad and shouldn't happen, ever from this point onwards. What needs to be concentrated on is ensuring that no woman, or man, goes through a similar experience as you where their teacher discourages them from entering their ideal industry.
All secondary students should be given access to information about every course and industry which includes evidence that there are women and men working in them all. Personal experiences from an equal number of men and women currently in the degrees and working in the industry would be a good idea. People working in career guidance should all be trained to try to instill confidence in all students that they can enter whichever industry they have an interest in. Then it's up to each individual to follow their own choices and pursue their careers
Except, you know what?
Men in STEM tend to hire other men, regardless of whether they are actually the best candidate for the job. And those men who were hired never question whether or not they deserved to be hired, and thus the cycle continues.
I was on a panel where a young 20-something guy was interviewed for a developer role. He was absolutely useless, couldn't code his way out of a paper bag. And yet he got the role because he had 'potential', i.e. complete fluffy, nonsense decision making from the men on the panel who wanted someone just like them. We also interviewed a woman who had far superior technical skills and was far more deserving of the job, also a very nice lady, but 'not a good fit', apparently. Do you not think this happens every single day?
Men in this field very rarely seem to suffer from the same imposter syndrome women do. This guy truly believes he got the job because he was the best candidate. And why wouldn't he? He has no idea that a woman who was better qualified lost out because she was the wrong age and gender. He thinks he got it because he was the best, and he'd likely be against any gender-specific hiring process, even though he unknowingly benefitted from such a thing himself.
And so it continues.0 -
Does it even matter that they advertise women only roles - sure if you are a man and fancy one of the jobs, with the whole.gsnder nuetral thing, just roll up to the interview and state that today you feel like a woman.0
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I dunno. Back in my day, girls must have been tougher. If a teacher ever mistakenly suggested something to you like you should not do this, or you cannot do that ir you will be isolated if you go there, the inner reaction was fcuk you, WATCH me do it. And that was from a very shy nerdy girl.
I studied in a male dominated college course, and I was the first of any gender in my extended family to go to college We were working class and going through college meant pulling 8 hour shifts in Abrakebabra till 4 am 3 nights a week and living in bedsits that people would be ashamed to house a cat in these days. Life is tough, be tougher. I had girl friends who studied engineering, medicine, physics, accountancy, wait for it - gasp - in the fecking mid 80s!! They were perfectly normal before, during and after, and needed no trauma counselling and took up careers thereafter as suited their desires, full time, part time, top of their fields if they had ambition, middle ground if it suited them better, not at all if they prefered something completely different like living barefoot in the mountains.
Did something awful happen in the last 3 or 4 decades that nobody told me about?
No, you see you're talking about taking personal responsibility for your own choices as an individual and seeing them through to the end, working through any obstacles in your way instead of fixating on them and how they're specific only to your gender and demanding the world to balance everything in your favour to get past them instead
Fair ****ing play to you and your friends by the way. And I know plenty of women doing the same these days as well, they just get on with things and they're the ones who get on in life. All of this bull**** here is just these weirdo third wave feminists who spend too much time online who've nothing significant to fight for compared to the proper feminists in the past, clutching at straws to feel like they're seriously discriminated against. Playing the victim is attractive to them0 -
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I dunno. Back in my day, girls must have been tougher. If a teacher ever mistakenly suggested something to you like you should not do this, or you cannot do that ir you will be isolated if you go there, the inner reaction was fcuk you, WATCH me do it. And that was from a very shy nerdy girl.
I studied in a male dominated college course, and I was the first of any gender in my extended family to go to college We were working class and going through college meant pulling 8 hour shifts in Abrakebabra till 4 am 3 nights a week and living in bedsits that people would be ashamed to house a cat in these days. Life is tough, be tougher. I had girl friends who studied engineering, medicine, physics, accountancy, wait for it - gasp - in the fecking mid 80s!! They were perfectly normal before, during and after, and needed no trauma counselling and took up careers thereafter as suited their desires, full time, part time, top of their fields if they had ambition, middle ground if it suited them better, not at all if they prefered something completely different like living barefoot in the mountains.
Did something awful happen in the last 3 or 4 decades that nobody told me about?
Yes, I actually think it has got worse. I notice way more overt sexism and toxic attitudes now than I did as a kid/teenager in the 90s and my mother's generation actually seemed to have it easier in this regard than mine did. I think the 80s was probably the best time for women getting into male dominated roles...there has been a decline since then and I don't think it's fair to blame individuals rather than some structural cause.
It would have been the height of uncool to have a pink bedroom or wear pink back when I was a kid, and now I see little girls everywhere head to toe in pink or wearing Elsa costumes to the supermarket. There seems to have been a massive shift back to 'traditional' gender roles. I volunteer as a mentor in a Dublin school and I see it there as well, girls feeling like they have to be pretty for boys, huge fake eyelashes, hair extensions, even a few saying directly to me that programming isn't a job for girls.0 -
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lainey_d_123 wrote: »Yes, I actually think it has got worse. I notice way more overt sexism and toxic attitudes now than I did as a kid/teenager in the 90s and my mother's generation actually seemed to have it easier in this regard than mine did. I think the 80s was probably the best time for women getting into male dominated roles...there has been a decline since then and I don't think it's fair to blame individuals rather than some structural cause.
It would have been the height of uncool to have a pink bedroom or wear pink back when I was a kid, and now I see little girls everywhere head to toe in pink or wearing Elsa costumes to the supermarket. There seems to have been a massive shift back to 'traditional' gender roles. I volunteer as a mentor in a Dublin school and I see it there as well, girls feeling like they have to be pretty for boys, huge fake eyelashes, hair extensions, even a few saying directly to me that programming isn't a job for girls.
Troll0 -
PonchoMcHoncho wrote: »My experience is the polar opposite. More than half my lecturers were female. I graduated from a class with only 2 female students (to 25 male).Neither of which was fantastic academically but they were both the first picked up by multinationals for engineering roles while better students didn't fair so well. Where I work now most of the female applicants are for BA or tester roles. More women than men get hired for those roles. If a female engineer applies you can guarantee they have the job. There's huge demand for female engineers.
The actual disparity is caused by the lack of women in software development and engineering which is why there's huge demand for female engineers and a lot more men with the experience required for senior roles.
Something tells me if you as an experienced female engineer are struggling and getting feedback of "it's not a good cultural fit" your interviews are absolutely horrendous.
Except I got a very good job (and have since been promoted) and was offered others, so get out of here with your gaslighting insults.
Nobody should be told they are 'not a cultural fit'. That is not part of the hiring criteria.0 -
lainey_d_123 wrote: »Yes, blame the women for not applying and not the fact that the entire sector has historically been extremely hostile to women. I absolutely loved programming as a kid and yet didn't choose comp sci as my degree...why? Because I hated being in the only girl in the class, subject to sexist 'jokes', not being credited for my work. It wasn't until I got old enough and angry enough at being underemployed with my sh1tty Arts degree that I decided to move into tech finally...and I still get plenty of stupid comments about being a 'diversity hire' from men who weren't even born yet when I was starting programming.
But yeah, let's blame women for the 'choices' they're making.
My youngest lad just graduated from one of these demanding programming degrees and at his grad we were talking briefly about the girls getting their parchments with him. They were fewer in number but not extraordinarily so - it is a well studied sex difference that males prefer to work with abstract things and females prefer to work with people and the breakdown in numbers was reflective of that. Some of them were relartvely newly immigrated girls so they must have also had to overcome language issues in the not so long ago. He said the girls were absolutely brilliant, they had no problems on a really tough course that he found challenging even though he is very smart, they socialised completely comfortably with the lads, and the lads were very, very proud of their fellow female graduands. Not only are these girls really clever, really confident, but feck me they all looked like models going up to get their parchments. They will do just fine in their chosen careers without any namby pamby measures to "help" them along.0 -
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lainey_d_123 wrote: »Right yeah I'm a troll for posting about my lived experiences as a female developer who mentors kids....OK.
Once again, a woman working in tech and speaking about her own experiences shut down by a man.
And you wonder why no woman wants to work for you.
You're a troll and a liar0 -
My youngest lad just graduated from one of these demanding programming degrees and at his grad we were talking briefly about the girls getting their parchments with him. They were fewer in number but not extraordinarily so - it is a well studied sex difference that males prefer to work with abstract things and females prefer to work with people and the breakdown in numbers was reflective of that. Some of them were relartvely newly immigrated girls so they must have also had to overcome language issues in the not so long ago. He said the girls were absolutely brilliant, they had no problems on a really tough course that he found challenging even though he is very smart, they socialised completely comfortably with the lads, and the lads were very, very proud of their fellow female graduands. Not only are these girls really clever, really confident, but feck me they all looked like models going up to get their parchments. They will do just fine in their chosen careers without any namby pamby measures to "help" them along.
Why is this relevant?0 -
You're a troll and a liar
Tell me which part is a lie?
and why the fcuk you're so bothered?
Plenty has been written recently about how young girls seem to be going backwards regarding career choices.
There were more women programmers in the 80s than there are today - that's a fact.
But sure, call me a troll because you haven't a clue.0 -
lainey_d_123 wrote: »Except I got a very good job (and have since been promoted) and was offered others, so get out of here with your gaslighting insults.
Nobody should be told they are 'not a cultural fit'. That is not part of the hiring criteria.
So you weren't successful in a couple of interviews but landed a great job and got promoted in the last 18 months. But because you were unsuccessful in some interviews it's proof that there's systematic industry wide discrimination against women?0 -
lainey_d_123 wrote: »Why is this relevant?
It was a compliment to these beautiful clever young women, of whom as an older woman I am very proud.
Of course, it was sexist
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Gender-blind interview processes have been tried. They've worked a treat in classical music, where orchestras have become far more gender balanced as a result. Not so in STEM. I remember reading about one such in Australia which was discontinued because even more men were being hired than before. Women are in a minority in STEM because they don't choose to study it in college.lainey_d_123 wrote: »Except, you know what?
Men in STEM tend to hire other men, regardless of whether they are actually the best candidate for the job. And those men who were hired never question whether or not they deserved to be hired, and thus the cycle continues.0
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