Women Only Professorships

Calhoun

Gerry T wrote: »

But how can you have a balance then. If there are 90 Male applicants to 10 women then men will most likely get the job, that's not discrimination, that's just logic. To make it fair you would have to say for every 9 men employed in that field 1 woman does.

Sorry i should have clarified you would need quotas at all levels from University to application for a job. The problem with crap like this is the rabbit holes it opens up when you try and bring fairness to it.

Yurt! wrote: »

On the legality of this, positive discrimination is allowed - however, the test is it must be proportionate and the scope must not harm others' rights. The legal fun will start when the first male has his application returned to him and passes it straight on to his solicitor.

From memory, two similar jobs for the girls schemes went all the way to the European courts. The Dutch scheme was found to be proportionate (it was restricted to one University in the Netherlands and I think I recall it was only for mathematics professorships), and the Swedish scheme was found to be disproportionate and discriminatory towards males.

Interestingly, Scary Mary said the Attorney General gave her the green light for her girl crew initiative, yet wouldn't publish the advice. Whispers at the time this was announced that many civil servants were uneasy as to the legality of this.

Bring on the legal challenges - my money is on this hitting a legal wall (as morally it should).

I really hope so and i hope its a good pay day. I would say they will be forced the the european courts though as you can see how similar ministers have been acting with the likes of the public service card. It wont be until Europe smacks them down that they will cop on.

Needles73

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

I wasn't unsuccessful because I was a poor candidate. I was unsuccessful because they wanted to hire someone like them.....
This is just your opinion I’m assuming. It could be your coping mechanism for not being the best candidate ?

KWAG2019

Men have a 1:5 chance of getting a professorship in Irish universities. Women have a 1:15. Averages. There is a problem.

lainey_d_123

Needles73 wrote: »

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

I wasn't unsuccessful because I was a poor candidate. I was unsuccessful because they wanted to hire someone like them.....
This is just your opinion I’m assuming. It could be your coping mechanism for not being the best candidate ?

The reason was 'not a cultural fit'. I passed the technical test with flying colours and also had good interview feedback.

Attitudes like yours are part of the problem. You can dismiss bias by saying this rubbish. I don't mind not being the best candidate. I do mind being fobbed off with 'not a cultural fit'. These words should not be acceptable, because they mean nothing other than 'we want to hire people who are just like us'. And if the company is full of white bearded young men, then that means hiring other white, bearded young men.

Not that hard to understand.

Grueller

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Yes, I actually think it has got worse. I notice way more overt sexism and toxic attitudes now than I did as a kid/teenager in the 90s and my mother's generation actually seemed to have it easier in this regard than mine did. I think the 80s was probably the best time for women getting into male dominated roles...there has been a decline since then and I don't think it's fair to blame individuals rather than some structural cause.

It would have been the height of uncool to have a pink bedroom or wear pink back when I was a kid, and now I see little girls everywhere head to toe in pink or wearing Elsa costumes to the supermarket. There seems to have been a massive shift back to 'traditional' gender roles. I volunteer as a mentor in a Dublin school and I see it there as well, girls feeling like they have to be pretty for boys, huge fake eyelashes, hair extensions, even a few saying directly to me that programming isn't a job for girls.

Bullsh1t. I work as a mental health professional and discuss all of these issues with teenagers nowadays on a weekly basis. The appearance thing is for other girls so as not to be bullied.

PonchoMcHoncho

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

The reason was 'not a cultural fit'. I passed the technical test with flying colours and also had good interview feedback.

Attitudes like yours are part of the problem. You can dismiss bias by saying this rubbish. I don't mind not being the best candidate. I do mind being fobbed off with 'not a cultural fit'. These words should not be acceptable, because they mean nothing other than 'we want to hire people who are just like us'. And if the company is full of white bearded young men, then that means hiring other white, bearded young men.

Not that hard to understand.

It most likely means you interviewed badly. You're doing nothing to help the cause either by trying to claim generic feedback on failed interviews is proof of young white bearded men only hiring young white bearded men.

lainey_d_123

PonchoMcHoncho wrote: »

It most likely means you interviewed badly. You're doing nothing to help the cause either by trying to claim generic feedback on failed interviews is proof of young white bearded men only hiring young white bearded men.

Then wasn't it weird that they gave me glowing feedback on my interview and that I was offered 3 jobs that same week?

But sure, yes, keep telling yourself that.

This is how they get away with it.

There should be no such thing as a 'cultural fit' in 2020.

lainey_d_123

Grueller wrote: »

Bullsh1t. I work as a mental health professional and discuss all of these issues with teenagers nowadays on a weekly basis. The appearance thing is for other girls so as not to be bullied.

Sure, yes, but it's coming from something wider, whatever that is. I'm simply saying that it wasn't cool to be a girly girl when I was a kid/teenager. Things seem to be getting worse instead of better when it comes to young girls' mental health and career choices.

There were more women programmers in the 80s than there are today.

Something isn't right. I'm not claiming to know what.

PonchoMcHoncho

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Then wasn't it weird that they gave me glowing feedback on my interview and that I was offered 3 jobs that same week?

But sure, yes, keep telling yourself that.

This is how they get away with it.

There should be no such thing as a 'cultural fit' in 2020.

Offered 3 jobs that week, took a great one and got promoted within the year. Yet being turned down on 1 means there's a systematic problem with gender discrimination in the industry? "Cultural fit" is just a generic "you were qualified but we preferred another candidate" response. Everyone gets them. Are you really that arrogant and entitled that you think the only reason you weren't offered the job is because the hiring manager was sexist? Get over yourself ffs.

You're the one believing what you want to fit your own narrative of being a victim despite apparently having your choice of many jobs and getting a great one and getting promoted in the last year.

I'd say if you seen the fail rate of the average male engineer and the responses you'd have a heart attack.

Calhoun

Grueller wrote: »

Bullsh1t. I work as a mental health professional and discuss all of these issues with teenagers nowadays on a weekly basis. The appearance thing is for other girls so as not to be bullied.

Scary such a politically biased individual is allowed near kids to drip the poison in their ears.

Hoboo

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

There should be no such thing as a 'cultural fit' in 2020.

You clearly don't understand what it actually is and decide to ignore decades of emperical evidence and international best practice that supports and promotes it's importance.

Leave HR strategy alone, stick to the tech.

mistersifter

Will they be introducing men only jobs in departments where women are in the majority?

Sephiroth_dude

Ballso wrote: »

You're a troll and a liar

Mod

Don't post in this thread again.

Eric Cartman

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Yes, because men are just so terribly hard done by in the working world. Some STEM companies are 90+% men while men make up < 50% of the population, but this is some great injustice now that women are being given the tiniest fraction of what men have taken for granted for decades?

OK.

Some, Medicine and behavioural sciences are majority women. Science maths and engineering are majority men, but its mostly down to different interests.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Figure-S1-Percentage-of-Female-and-Male-Students-Declaring-Specific-Undergraduate-STEM_fig3_278666794

Its down to a difference in interests. Theres nothing to stop more men entering nursing or primary school teaching just as theres nothing to stop women entering maths and engineering but we all make choices and quotas are about upsetting those choices.

lainey_d_123

mistersifter wrote: »

Will they be introducing men only jobs in departments where women are in the majority?

I would definitely be in favour of more men applying for and getting roles in things like primary education (both actually working as primary teachers and lecturing on university level teaching courses) and would support such measures to encourage men to apply. I think it's a shame that men are put off such jobs because of the perception that they aren't the right gender for the role or unconscious bias leading them not to be selected in cases where they were the most qualified candidate for the role.

lainey_d_123

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Some, Medicine and behavioural sciences are majority women. Science maths and engineering are majority men, but its mostly down to different interests.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Figure-S1-Percentage-of-Female-and-Male-Students-Declaring-Specific-Undergraduate-STEM_fig3_278666794

Its down to a difference in interests. Theres nothing to stop more men entering nursing or primary school teaching just as theres nothing to stop women entering maths and engineering but we all make choices and quotas are about upsetting those choices.

But how many men are put off a career in, say, childcare because they're worried about how it's perceived, or worried about their chances of getting roles in the industry over women? Quite a lot, I'd say. This is the problem with using the word 'choices' in situations where people don't feel like they have the choice (regardless of whether or not they technically do).

Surely the solution is to examine the reasons carefully, not just assume that people aren't applying for things because they've chosen not to, with no other factors at play.

Eric Cartman

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

But how many men are put off a career in, say, childcare because they're worried about how it's perceived, or worried about their chances of getting roles in the industry over women? Quite a lot, I'd say. This is the problem with using the word 'choices' in situations where people don't feel like they have the choice (regardless of whether or not they technically do).

Surely the solution is to examine the reasons carefully, not just assume that people aren't applying for things because they've chosen not to, with no other factors at play.

The way the san-fran tech scene is in dublin id say men are more worried about getting overlooked for a woman or minority for optics over merits than anyone these days.

The only stigma about men in childcare or primary teaching is the #metoo crowd peddling that all men are paedos and rapists making it unacceptable for a man to be alone anywhere near a child.

bcklschaps

I work in an Irish University.

Irish Universities are a laughing stock and careering down World/European league tables.

This stunt will only serve to further that decline.

Instead of denying half of the suitably qualified candidates from applying for these new University professorships the Government should be widening the net to get the very best talent (from Academia & industry in Ireland and abroad if necessary).

Gynoid

Heres a gender disparity in University that not many are talking about...hmmm, I dont know why.
It is estimated that up to 1 in 10 uni students in Ireland, mostly girls by far, have signed up to sugar daddy arrangement sites. They justification given is 1) that times are so tough for the little helpless girlies so they have to prostitute themselves, ( fckn bullsh1t, roll up your sleeves and get a job with dignity) or 2) dont dare kink shame these independent girls who are doing sex work on their own terms.

What those girls could do with most is a swift boot in the arse - how have they come to be such idiots after decades of female liberation. 1 in 10? The absolute gobsh1tes.

https://universityobserver.ie/ucd-represent-highest-level-of-sign-ups-to-sugar-baby-website-in-2018/

Im really fed up of all this whole manufactured manipulated dissembling infantilising gender everything horseshyte.

Eric Cartman

Gynoid wrote: »

Heres a gender disparity in University that not many are talking about...hmmm, I dont know why.
It is estimated that up to 1 in 10 uni students in Ireland, mostly girls by far, have signed up to sugar daddy arrangement sites. They justification given is 1) that times are so tough for the little helpless girlies so they have to prostitute themselves, ( fckn bullsh1t, roll up your sleeves and get a job with dignity) or 2) dont dare kink shame these independent girls who are doing sex work on their own terms.

What those girls could do with most is a swift boot in the arse - how have they come to be such idiots after decades of female liberation. 1 in 10? The absolute gobsh1tes.

https://universityobserver.ie/ucd-represent-highest-level-of-sign-ups-to-sugar-baby-website-in-2018/

Im really fed up of all this whole manufactured manipulated dissembling infantilising gender everything horseshyte.

Self sexualisation of women to compete with other women for instagram likes, turning to these sites to pay for their lifestyles trying to emulate 'influencers', its a sickness brought about in our youth and the pressures young women put on other women and their competitive nature against each other, but another topic for another day.

lainey_d_123

Gynoid wrote: »

Heres a gender disparity in University that not many are talking about...hmmm, I dont know why.
It is estimated that up to 1 in 10 uni students in Ireland, mostly girls by far, have signed up to sugar daddy arrangement sites. They justification given is 1) that times are so tough for the little helpless girlies so they have to prostitute themselves, ( fckn bullsh1t, roll up your sleeves and get a job with dignity) or 2) dont dare kink shame these independent girls who are doing sex work on their own terms.

What those girls could do with most is a swift boot in the arse - how have they come to be such idiots after decades of female liberation. 1 in 10? The absolute gobsh1tes.

https://universityobserver.ie/ucd-represent-highest-level-of-sign-ups-to-sugar-baby-website-in-2018/

Im really fed up of all this whole manufactured manipulated dissembling infantilising gender everything horseshyte.

There's clearly something very wrong going on. You could choose to dismiss those individuals as idiots or you could choose to look further into what's causing this stuff, but it's clear that it *is* a very different world for young women these days than it was for your generation, whatever the reason.

I think social media is a big part of it but it's way beyond the scope of this thread.

Gynoid

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Self sexualisation of women to compete with other women for instagram likes, turning to these sites to pay for their lifestyles trying to emulate 'influencers', its a sickness brought about in our youth and the pressures young women put on other women and their competitive nature against each other, but another topic for another day.

Fncking eegitry. Bring back punk.

lainey_d_123

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The way the san-fran tech scene is in dublin id say men are more worried about getting overlooked for a woman or minority for optics over merits than anyone these days.

The only stigma about men in childcare or primary teaching is the #metoo crowd peddling that all men are paedos and rapists making it unacceptable for a man to be alone anywhere near a child.

Because there were plenty of men working in childcare and primary teaching before the me too movement a few short years ago.

Oh, wait.

:rolleyes:

Eric Cartman

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Because there were plenty of men working in childcare and primary teaching before the me too movement a few short years ago.

Oh, wait.

:rolleyes:

there were stigmas about it being a womans job long ago but as time has gone on, this is the only stigma left about men in those two specific professions. Weve removed the stigmas about men as cabin crew in aircraft, about women in tech etc... we have progress, but in those two specific fields that one has come about recently.

minggatu

"Through its new Irène Curie Fellowship program, TU Eindhoven is opening up vacancies for permanent academic staff exclusively to women in the first six months of recruitment. For the next year and a half, this will apply to 100 percent of vacancies, after which the university will review the percentage covered by the scheme each year. The measure is intended to achieve a better gender balance. In the coming years, the university will have some 150 positions to fill. "

tue.nl/en/news/news-overview/17-06-2019-tue-vacancies-for-academic-staff-exclusively-for-women-for-the-time-being/

Gynoid

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

There's clearly something very wrong going on. You could choose to dismiss those individuals as idiots or you could choose to look further into what's causing this stuff, but it's clear that it *is* a very different world for young women these days than it was for your generation, whatever the reason.

I think social media is a big part of it but it's way beyond the scope of this thread.

This blaming social media thing has gone way too far. Sure it is problematic but it needs fertile ground in the culture. There are clear reasons in the culture war why these situations have arisen and latter wave feminism is part of the problem. Keeping pushing late wave feminism past egalitarianism with gender quotas and male enasculation will keep making this worse. It does not make strong women, it makes infants who look to the state to protect them instead of themselves. Pro porn, sex work positivity, not defending against early even aggressive sexualisation in the culture, being afraid to be square and draw lines in the sand - none of this helps these girls, but it is all part of late wave feminism which has failed to protect feminity in favour of liberalism at all costs.

Stheno

I've worked in IT since the nineties and cannot relate to the experiences of lainey at all

Eric Cartman

Stheno wrote: »

I've worked in IT since the nineties and cannot relate to the experiences of laney at all

+1 , 15 years in business now, over a decade of it going round to customers offices and working with other IT teams or clients directly, it definitely has not gotten 'worse' for women, quite the opposite.

py2006

Will we see women only recruitment for
a) Bin men (sorry people)
b) Street Cleaners
c) Miners
d) Construction
e) dangerous jobs


The teaching and nursing areas should have male only recruitment now?!

Eric Cartman

py2006 wrote: »

Will we see women only recruitment for
a) Bin men (sorry people)
b) Street Cleaners
c) Miners
d) Construction
e) dangerous jobs


The teaching and nursing areas should have male only recruitment now?!

ofcourse not, its only 75k+ a year positions that have issues.