Women Only Professorships

mistersifter

A female friend of mine was helping to organize a humanities seminar a few months back. It was some gender themed event.

One postgrad student was to be awarded a grant to travel and present. My friend evaluated proposals and chose a male to receive the award. She was quickly told by her boss (also a woman) that she wasn't allowed to give the award to a man.

A small example of the twisted mentality that seems to be dominant in universities.

douglashyde

I work in 'tech' in a female dominated field/role. The company as a whole (a well known household name) has brought in a new policy requiring a min of 2 female candidates interviewed for every new role (not just my field), this often manifests as 1 male, 2 female candidates in the interview process.

Interestingly one (of many) negative fallouts from this is we often bring a token female into the hiring mix to hit this mandated requirement even if that person is not a strong candidate (I sit on interview panels).

Positive discrimination/action as a whole lowers the bar for females (creating a lower average) and creates a higher bar for males- this doesn't service real diversity well in the long run. Also, the label 'diversity hire' is used quite a lot, because it's true. These things do no favors for women as a whole.

Identity politics is bad for people and bad for business.

KWAG2019

Caquas wrote: »

Not to change the subject but the Leaving Cert has become a national disgrace. There is a major industry of grind schools here based on students learning answers off by heart but no-one ever lose marks for plagiarism in the Leaving Cert. The examiners are in on the game - they give top marks to all the students who regurgitate the identical essays. This farce is somewhat less detrimental to young women who tend to be more willing to play the game (but higher maths is less susceptible to plagiarism).

Gender studies is based on the premise that whenever women do better than men, that is due to women’s superiority. Why do women live longer? Why are so few women in jail? Why do women get lower car insurance? When the boot is on the other foot, then we’re victim-blaming.

Dare I suggest that women academics are disadvantaged because they produce less of the peer-reviewed research which should be essential for promotion to the highest academic posts?

http://http://theconversation.com/perish-not-publish-new-study-quantifies-the-lack-of-female-authors-in-scientific-journals-92999

Plagiarism will be addressed as student scripts are digitized and correction technology expands.

highwaymaniac

ixoy wrote: »

Had a chat with some of my female IT colleagues, in their 20s, about this. None of them experienced any sexism in any form in their careers but some of them got grief from other women for trying to pursue an IT career.

None of them want quotas in place because it would undermine their achievements in getting were they are (by being damn good at their jobs). Like others here, they all believe the best way is to encourage women by talking about careers and not blatant bribery. How do you make young women look at these potential careers and make them interesting to them.

I definitely agree with this, I think we need to forget about the mistakes of previous generations, I would hate to see young men being discriminated against based on the "sins of their fathers" in my opinion significantly less gender and other biases amongst the millennial generation, with the progression of time will the gender equality reach a natural normal equilibrium? Or could populist decisions like this one by MMoC actually contribute to instilling prejudice where none existed - I certainly think so.

Here's an idea - why didn't they target older male professors for early retirement or male professors generally for voluntary redundancy (only the average to poor performing). Then advertise the 20 new posts together with those newly vacant ones and have a random selection open competition based on pass/fail with minimum qualification requirements set and evaluated by an independent gender balanced board.

Do this a few times and the ratio of female/male applicants should set some sort of a benchmark for ratio of female/males for future appointments under standard interview.

Equality of Opportunity not Equality of Outcome.

Kidchameleon

PonchoMcHoncho wrote: »

Secondly, I get that if there's a pay issue it needs to be fixed, if there's issues with hiring they need to be fixed or lack of women going into certain fields.

That's the thing though, there is not problem with lack of women going into certain fields. The two genders have different preferences, that's why there are different decisions made when choosing what to study. Women are more likely to study "people" related fields and men are more likely to study "thing" related fields. The research on this is clear.

Stheno

Calhoun wrote: »

I think mentorship is one of the tools that both men and women need to take the next step forward, it helps give you that confidence you need to take a leap into the unknown even if you feel you aren't qualified.

I work in a business/tech organization and its a mixed bag between men and women who are capable of taking the leap above you describe. The one thing they all have in common though is that they have had a strong and supportive mentor who have taken them under their wing and guided them.

Agree 100% with this. From early on in my career I have engaged with mentors and it has undoubtedly helped me

Kidchameleon

douglashyde wrote: »

I work in 'tech' in a female dominated field/role. The company as a whole (a well known household name) has brought in a new policy requiring a min of 2 female candidates interviewed for every new role (not just my field), this often manifests as 1 male, 2 female candidates in the interview process.

Interestingly one (of many) negative fallouts from this is we often bring a token female into the hiring mix to hit this mandated requirement even if that person is not a strong candidate (I sit on interview panels).

Positive discrimination/action as a whole lowers the bar for females (creating a lower average) and creates a higher bar for males- this doesn't service real diversity well in the long run. Also, the label 'diversity higher' is used quite a lot, because it's true. These things do no favours for women as a whole.

Identity politics is bad for people and bad for business.

Completely agree with this. I am male but I find diversity targets to be patronizing towards those whom they supposedly help. If I were a woman, I would be offended by the likes of this behavior.

Asitis2019

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Except, you know what?

Men in STEM tend to hire other men, regardless of whether they are actually the best candidate for the job. And those men who were hired never question whether or not they deserved to be hired, and thus the cycle continues.

I was on a panel where a young 20-something guy was interviewed for a developer role. He was absolutely useless, couldn't code his way out of a paper bag. And yet he got the role because he had 'potential', i.e. complete fluffy, nonsense decision making from the men on the panel who wanted someone just like them. We also interviewed a woman who had far superior technical skills and was far more deserving of the job, also a very nice lady, but 'not a good fit', apparently. Do you not think this happens every single day?

Men in this field very rarely seem to suffer from the same imposter syndrome women do. This guy truly believes he got the job because he was the best candidate. And why wouldn't he? He has no idea that a woman who was better qualified lost out because she was the wrong age and gender. He thinks he got it because he was the best, and he'd likely be against any gender-specific hiring process, even though he unknowingly benefitted from such a thing himself.

And so it continues.

First of all, you come across as somebody who has chip on their shoulder. Is it possible that your own personal predilections are colouring your view of these situations. You perceived that the woman was a better coder than the man - but unless I am mistaken, interview panels look for a combination of traits. While technical skills can be developed, other skills cannot. Perhaps your own bias towards the woman blindsided you as to their weaknesses.

Second, you are judging all this from your own limited experience. Boo hoo you went into tech late - and others went in earlier. That was your choice, nobody else's. Don't take your own personal regrets out on those who made better choices, just because they are male.

Third, if you hold such a dim view of your colleagues, perhaps you should seek employment elsewhere.

milehip

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

I volunteer as a mentor in a Dublin school and I see it there as well, girls feeling like they have to be pretty for boys, huge fake eyelashes, hair extensions, even a few saying directly to me that programming isn't a job for girls.

By the time these girls graduate, computers will probably be programing themselves.

Arrival

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Self sexualisation of women to compete with other women for instagram likes, turning to these sites to pay for their lifestyles trying to emulate 'influencers', its a sickness brought about in our youth and the pressures young women put on other women and their competitive nature against each other, but another topic for another day.

There has GOT to be a way we can blame men for this!

mvl

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

I absolutely loved programming as a kid and yet didn't choose comp sci as my degree...why? Because I hated being in the only girl in the class, subject to sexist 'jokes', not being credited for my work.

But when/where was that, may I ask; seems extremely odd; I've a 20 years career in tech myself (F) and thought the diversity ratio was around 20%, both in my university and later the companies I worked for - seeing a bit of increase last years, even if not yet as much in the high level mgt roles.

Huntergonzo

Arrival wrote: »

There has GOT to be a way we can blame men for this!

Well men created Instagram so there you go, problem solved, those pesky men strike again!!

Caquas

KWAG2019 wrote: »

Plagiarism will be addressed as student scripts are digitized and correction technology expands.

There is no desire to tackle plagiarism in the Leaving Cert. On the contrary, the whole system rewards it.

And the problem shows up in third-level where students are supposed to think for themselves but instead they get irritated if the lecturer doesn’t just give them “the answer”.

And even those who support these women-only Professorships cannot imagine that the new jobs will improve the academic standards of our colleges. It’s just a big pay-rise for a select group of female lecturers.

Asitis2019

Caquas wrote: »

There is no desire to tackle plagiarism in the Leaving Cert. On the contrary, the whole system rewards it.

And the problem shows up in third-level where students are supposed to think for themselves but instead they get irritated if the lecturer doesn’t just give them “the answer”.

And even those who support these women-only Professorships cannot imagine that the new jobs will improve the academic standards of our colleges. It’s just a big pay-rise for a select group of lecturers.

100pc agree with you.

Even as the metrics might improve, standards are definitely decreasing.

paleoperson

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Yes, blame the women for not applying and not the fact that the entire sector has historically been extremely hostile to women. I absolutely loved programming as a kid and yet didn't choose comp sci as my degree...why? Because I hated being in the only girl in the class, subject to sexist 'jokes', not being credited for my work. It wasn't until I got old enough and angry enough at being underemployed with my sh1tty Arts degree that I decided to move into tech finally...and I still get plenty of stupid comments about being a 'diversity hire' from men who weren't even born yet when I was starting programming.

But yeah, let's blame women for the 'choices' they're making.

Programming as a kid? Most of us never even had programming classes or were near a computer as a kid, I also never had programming classes in secondary and I went to a nice and pretty good secondary school. You must have grown up in a privileged environment to begin with. I also didn't have a computer until I was about 15 around the year 2000. I know several others in the same boat, a few never touched computer programming until college and did well in it. What about the lack of encouragement for all of us? Also computer programming is not a good job.

Calhoun

Stheno wrote: »

Agree 100% with this. From early on in my career I have engaged with mentors and it has undoubtedly helped me

The thing with mentors as well is its not a single sex, funny thing for me is that some of the best mentors i have had have been female.

I am thankful that they did not see my sex as an impediment to help they just did.

Charles Babbage

mistersifter wrote: »

A female friend of mine was helping to organize a humanities seminar a few months back. It was some gender themed event.

One postgrad student was to be awarded a grant to travel and present. My friend evaluated proposals and chose a male to receive the award. She was quickly told by her boss (also a woman) that she wasn't allowed to give the award to a man.

A small example of the twisted mentality that seems to be dominant in universities.

This story is in the category of: I went to Cork once and met a gobsh i te on the train, with Cork people like that things must be bad in Cork.

mistersifter

Charles Babbage wrote: »

This story is in the category of: I went to Cork once and met a gobsh i te on the train, with Cork people like that things must be bad in Cork.

I don't claim it to be anything other than a small example of the same kind of idiocy being talked about in this thread i.e. opportunities being denied to deserving people because of some silly idea about the 'oppression' of women.

Diemos

mvl wrote: »

But when/where was that, may I ask; seems extremely odd; I've a 20 years career in tech myself (F) and thought the diversity ratio was around 20%, both in my university and later the companies I worked for - seeing a bit of increase last years, even if not yet as much in the high level mgt roles.

The poster mentioned that she decided for herself that she would be the only girl in class and face sexist 'jokes' so opted for an arts degree and skipped by a programming under grad.
The reason you won't be told when and where this was is because it never happened.
My experience would mirror yours, around 20%.

I've worked in a number of tech companies and sat on numerous interview panels, none have been boys clubs, they hired the best, simple as that, regardless of gender, race, orientation etc. Someone will have to pick up the pieces if your new hire is a dud.
Closest I've come to sexism would be HR's 'jokes' that we better 'hire more girls to get the numbers right'. Seemingly oblivious to their own skewed 'numbers'

In my experience if the poster has been excluded for not being a 'fit' for the company then the interview must have been a car crash outside of the tech test. I've seen plenty of very technically capable people who are just unable to work as a team and there is a level of arrogance held by some techies that is breathtaking. They don't even have the common sense to dial it back when putting their best foot forward.

skooterblue2

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

I understand that men feel hard done by by initiatives which encourage hiring women but honestly...it doesn't even begin to make up for the years of disadvantage women have faced in STEM fields.

What disadvantage? Women outnumber men 2:1 in Biology, on par in chemistry
Women dominate the statistics parts of maths.

When you apply for course at college through the CAO, you are just a number. However if you dont apply and complain afterwards you look like a tit if you have an arts degree complaining about it (I have come across it). As for corporate culture? Wouldnt it be best to "know before you go?". Like how many straight christian men are there working for TUSLA? How many girls make it to 2nd year engineering?

exaisle

This effectively means that the best people for these 20 posts may not get the job.

I wonder how the women who get these jobs will really feel about that?

Typical public service bullsh1t.

Positive action? That's just another way of saying "positive descrimination in favour of women". That's the same as negative descrimination against men. It's just descrimination on grounds of gender. And that's wrong in anybody's language.

splinter65

Ugh ugh ugh. Imagine giving a lecture in a fairly full auditorium and most of the learners are looking at you thinking “she only got this position because they wouldn’t let any men compete for it”.

Treppen

Charles Babbage wrote: »

This story is in the category of: I went to Cork once and met a gobsh i te on the train, with Cork people like that things must be bad in Cork.

Shur for all we know you could be a computer.

lainey_d_123

paleoperson wrote: »

Programming as a kid? Most of us never even had programming classes or were near a computer as a kid, I also never had programming classes in secondary and I went to a nice and pretty good secondary school. You must have grown up in a privileged environment to begin with. I also didn't have a computer until I was about 15 around the year 2000. I know several others in the same boat, a few never touched computer programming until college and did well in it. What about the lack of encouragement for all of us? Also computer programming is not a good job.

LOL 'programming classes'? i don't think anyone who starts programming as a kid takes classes. I lived in one of the roughest areas there is. Had the fortune to be given an old computer belonging to a family my aunt cleaned for because they knew I was fascinated by them. Found a good few books on programming in the local library and just messed around with it. Don't know where in the world you grew up, but my school had IT classes in a computer lab and we were allowed to use the lab out of hours a bit. I definitely didn't go to Blackrock College, so either you were incredibly unfortunate or you're talking sh1te. I'm the same age as you and I don't think my experiences were atypical.

Also, programming is not a good job?

LOL, OK. Wouldn't like to see what you thought of the salary for most jobs, so.

Topgear on Dave

You're incredibly lucky.

I think I'm about the same age as you. Programming or IT classes in the local tech that I went to in the 90's. LOL, never.

They had a few old apple yokes from the 80's they never turned on and eventually near the leaving they got 2 or 3 windows PCs. I don't remember really using those either.

Edit: I also would regard programming as a good job. I dont understand why it would not be regarded as one.

kowloon

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Lots of men in this field like to believe that women don't get hired because they're not good enough or that any woman hire is automatically a 'diversity hire'.

Won't forcing diversity hiring make that worse? Every man who loses a position to a woman will have the option of blaming the system rather than themselves.
Beyond the ad campaigns trying to get girls into engineering and the likes I don't see what can be done without resorting to more discrimination.

lainey_d_123

Diemos wrote: »

The poster mentioned that she decided for herself that she would be the only girl in class and face sexist 'jokes' so opted for an arts degree and skipped by a programming under grad.
The reason you won't be told when and where this was is because it never happened.
My experience would mirror yours, around 20%.

I've worked in a number of tech companies and sat on numerous interview panels, none have been boys clubs, they hired the best, simple as that, regardless of gender, race, orientation etc. Someone will have to pick up the pieces if your new hire is a dud.
Closest I've come to sexism would be HR's 'jokes' that we better 'hire more girls to get the numbers right'. Seemingly oblivious to their own skewed 'numbers'

In my experience if the poster has been excluded for not being a 'fit' for the company then the interview must have been a car crash outside of the tech test. I've seen plenty of very technically capable people who are just unable to work as a team and there is a level of arrogance held by some techies that is breathtaking. They don't even have the common sense to dial it back when putting their best foot forward.

You're utterly, completely wrong, and if you don't believe me, I couldn't give a flying fcuk. I *was* the only girl in my secondary class, and there were a small handful of girls doing comp sci where I went to college. Nowhere near 20% of the cohort. Not even 10%.

It's quite breathtakingly arrogant to make such assumptions about an interview you weren't part of, but there you go. The interview was absolutely fine. There wasn't a single woman working in the place, let alone on the panel, so it came as no surprise to hear I wasn't a 'cultural fit'. End of. If you think I'm a technical person with no people skills, you're 100% wrong. I was offered multiple positions, accepted the best one and have been promoted since (not that i need to justify myself to you) and have an excellent working relationship with my colleagues, so you're full of sh1te tbh.

This is exactly the problem with someone reporting unconscious bias or sexism - people who weren't anywhere near the place deciding it 'didn't happen' because it doesn't fit their own world view. You're as bad as the idiots who claim there's no racism in Ireland because they've never seen it....when that's because they're fcking white.

lainey_d_123

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

You're incredibly lucky.

I think I'm about the same age as you. Programming or IT classes in the local tech that I went to in the 90's. LOL, never.

They had a few old apple yokes from the 80's they never turned on and eventually near the leaving they got 2 or 3 windows PCs. I don't remember really using those either.

Edit: I also would regard programming as a good job. I dont understand why it would not be regarded as one.

Maybe. I definitely didn't go to a particularly good school but we had 8-10 Windows PCs around 2000 ish. The stuff we learned at school was quite pointless/easy but people who had an interest in programming would do bits themselves and just mess around on them. I would have thought all secondary schools had some sort of computers...tbh I think we even had a Windows machine in primary.

padd b1975

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Exactly.

I find it shocking and unbelievable that we don't hear a peep out of any men while men are hiring and promoting other men, but the second the tables are turned (just more openly), they're up in arms about it.

Dead right they are too.

Maybe if women had did the same back in the day we wouldn't have a problem.

paleoperson

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

You're utterly, completely wrong, and if you don't believe me, I couldn't give a flying fcuk. I *was* the only girl in my secondary class, and there were a small handful of girls doing comp sci where I went to college. Nowhere near 20% of the cohort. Not even 10%.

It's quite breathtakingly arrogant to make such assumptions about an interview you weren't part of, but there you go. The interview was absolutely fine. There wasn't a single woman working in the place, let alone on the panel, so it came as no surprise to hear I wasn't a 'cultural fit'. End of. If you think I'm a technical person with no people skills, you're 100% wrong. I was offered multiple positions, accepted the best one and have been promoted since (not that i need to justify myself to you) and have an excellent working relationship with my colleagues, so you're full of sh1te tbh.

This is exactly the problem with someone reporting unconscious bias or sexism - people who weren't anywhere near the place deciding it 'didn't happen' because it doesn't fit their own world view. You're as bad as the idiots who claim there's no racism in Ireland because they've never seen it....when that's because they're fcking white.

They always say unsuccessful candidates weren't the right "fit", what else are they going to say - your answers were bad and they didn't like you? If the interviewers don't think people will get on with you and you're one of them they won't hire you, that goes for everyone.

What's "breathtakingly arrogant" is how every time you go through a setback in life it was due to discrimination that you conclude by your own supposed reading between the lines of what was actually said, while every time you get ahead it's due to your own merit.