Love Island 2020 (Winter) - See Note in OP

Jamie2k9

This is so sad, felt she was a great presenter for LI and Xtra Factor.

ITV failed her massively unlike Ant where they did everything for him and guaranteed his job(s) was safe regardless of the verdict.

IAMAMORON

I don't really know what to say, it is shocking.

Listen if anyone reading this is going through a tough time, please try to get some help. Life is all there is, don't ever forget that. No matter what you are going through or how tight a spot you are in, there is always amother day and another reason to be careful of yourself.

Reach out to your family, or friends or whoever you can, even if you feel that no one can help you, try to find something. If you can't think of any hope just remember that things change and over time things can and will get better.

There is always a future in your life.

RiP Caroline Flack.

MuffinTop86

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

ITV failed her massively unlike Ant where they did everything for him and guaranteed his job(s) was safe regardless of the verdict.

That’s an excellent point, hadn’t thought of that.
It’s awful she felt this was the only way

splinter65

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

This is so sad, felt she was a great presenter for LI and Xtra Factor.

ITV failed her massively unlike Ant where they did everything for him and guaranteed his job(s) was safe regardless of the verdict.

Ant and Dec are a British institution now on a level with Morcombe and Wise and others. Ms Flack was nowhere near that level, as popular and talented as she appeared.100 floors below.
She was replaced in a heartbeat by another generic blonde female presenter in the same age group.
In the world of reality TV both the presenters (apart from Ant and Dec) and the contestants are completely disposable/interchangeable.
She obviously had her demons, the poor woman, which culminated in her arrest and the inevitable unavoidable merciless trial by redtop/social media.
Neither the media/SM or the tv company can be blamed for Ms Flacks tragic death.
She would have known what she was getting into when she went to work, willingly, in reality TV land many years ago and was a veteran of the genre.
Ever before she threw the lamp at the sleeping boyfriend she knew perfectly well that approaching 40+ she was likely to become surplus to requirements soon and would be replaced on the flimsiest excuse by a younger version of herself.
The lamp incident just hastened her entry into the showbiz twilight zone for middle aged females.
She was also very media savvy too, a bit like princess Di, and used them (the papers) as much as they used her.
Yesterday when CPS told her that they were proceeding with her case (they’re damned if they do and damned if they don’t) she must have felt that her world had collapsed and there was no way back. Nothing beckoned but a slow slide into local radio someplace obscure and the odd ad.
The tragedy is that despite all the protestations of undying love from family and fellow celebs today, they’re didnt appear to be anyone close enough to tell her that there was life after Love Island.
If there’s to be a silver lining to this it may be that this might herald the end of the mass human rights violation that is competitive reality TV.
Really? It’s trash.

Max Headroom

Well worded..I wouldn't have been as "gentle"....

Loughc

greenpilot wrote: »

Finally, Love Island has been taken off air. ITV just announced. Delighted.

It’s back on tomorrow night.

Absolutely tragic what happened to Caroline but nothing to do with itv or the show. They still had her penciled in to host the summer version.

SozBbz

Loughc wrote: »

It’s back on tomorrow night.

Absolutely tragic what happened to Caroline but nothing to do with itv or the show. They still had her penciled in to host the summer version.

Yeah I agree, I think she would have come back.

In fact I think they went with Laura as she would be competent but no real threat to Caroline. If they’d gone with Maya Jama I’d have thought that would have been more of a threat.

It’s obviously terribly sad but there was far more at play than love island.

The media and the CPS have the most questions to answer. I could be wrong here but would it be usual for them to push this hard on a first time domestic violence case where the victim doesn’t wish to proceed?

She got very different treatment both from the media and the courts than ant mcpartlin.

I know people always say celebrities don’t face justice but it seems to me like her fame worked against her in this case.

retro:electro

The CPS were well within their right to proceed. They were literally doing their job. It’s not unheard of for victims of DV to change their mind in the cold light of day, be that down to intimidation from the perpetrator or fear, regret, embarrassment or what have you. It does not mean that a crime never took place. If the CPS have evidence that a violent incident took place that night (and by all accounts they do — reports suggest they were wearing full body cameras) they would have been duty bound to prosecute.

Can you imagine if they didn’t, and god forbid it was Lewis who ended up dead? What they did was standard procedure and now they’re being attacked and held responsible by people who doesn’t seem to understand the process of the law.

SozBbz

retro:electro wrote: »

The CPS were well within their right to proceed. They were literally doing their job. It’s not unheard of for victims of DV to change their mind in the cold light of day, be that down to intimidation from the perpetrator or fear, regret, embarrassment or what have you. It does not mean that a crime never took place. If the CPS have evidence that a violent incident took place that night (and by all accounts they do — reports suggest they were wearing full body cameras) they would have been duty bound to prosecute.

Can you imagine if they didn’t, and god forbid it was Lewis who ended up dead? What they did was standard procedure and now they’re being attacked and held responsible by people who doesn’t seem to understand the process of the law.

I do know all that, what I actually asked was was her treatment disproportionately rigorous because of her celebrity.

As for the supposed footage (which none of us have seen) they only have footage of the aftermath, not of the incident itself. Without a complaint, it’s still a bit weird to me how far this got. There was apparently a lot of blood, but they were both bleeding and shouting all sorts of wild stuff. I also find it strange how long a court order compelling herself and the boyfriend to have no contact lasted for, when both parties asked for it to be withdrawn. The prosecution already knew they had a uncooperative victim, so it’s not like she needed influence him to change his story as he was already supporting her. Normally victims have to seek protection orders. I’m aware of cases which resulted in more serious injuries, and no such separation order was put in place.

Crimes get committed every day that don’t end up in prosecutions, and of course that doesn’t mean that they never happened or that no crime was committed.

Surely though this raises questions about publicity surrounding cases dealing with those in the public eye. When you mix the pressure, shame and loneliness of the court case and court ordered isolation from her boyfriend, with the vitriol from both the mainstream and social media then it amounts to a pretty toxic perfect storm for a persons sanity and perspective.

skallywag

I know that my opinion will not be a popular one, but my take on it would be that what really worked against her was the fact that she decided to whack someone over the head with a heavy object, while they were asleep.

If I go home this evening and strike my partner, by surprise, over the head with a heavy object, then it will make no difference whether she decides to prosecute me or not, I should be prosecuted for that, and rightly so. If not what is stopping me doing it again in two weeks time the next time that I have a hissy fit, and maybe catching her properly this time and killing her?

People putting the blame on the CPS, the media, etc. is this really what we have come to? Taking responsibility for ones own actions is a thing confined to the history books now? :mad:

retro:electro

They obviously have enough footage (along with his initial phone call) to prove that she was a serious threat to him that night. Apparently he was heard screaming on the street “I was normal until I met her”, and they were both in absolute hysterics and Caroline had to be physically restrained. And that’s all we know. We’ll never know exactly what took place that night but the CPS typically don’t move forward with charges unless there is sufficient evidence that an attack took place. Reports now suggest she was absolutely terrified of this footage being made public and she couldn’t cope with the pressure of it. The no contact order was done because they believed Lewis was a victim of violence, and despite subsequently denying anything took place; sometimes victims need to be protected from themselves.

The UK has started to take cases like this extremely seriously in the last few years and there was a whole spectrum of new laws introduced in the last while. Once you make the initial phone call for help, if there’s enough evidence that an attack took place then it’s out of the victim’s hands. This is done in order to protect them.

Having said all of that, the whole thing is a horrendous tragedy and one of the saddest things I’ve ever read about. But the CPS aren’t to blame here for trying to do their job. If they hadn’t pressed charges and god forbid Lewis died down the line, they would have had blood on their hands and a whole other social media storm would have been created.

retro:electro

retro:electro wrote: »

They obviously have enough footage (along with his initial phone call) to prove that she was a serious threat to him that night. Apparently he was heard screaming on the street “I was normal until I met her”, and they were both in absolute hysterics and Caroline had to be physically restrained. And that’s all we know. We’ll never know exactly what took place that night but the CPS typically don’t move forward with charges unless there is sufficient evidence that an attack took place. Reports now suggest she was absolutely terrified of this footage being made public and she couldn’t cope with the pressure of it. The no contact order was done because they believed Lewis was a victim of violence, and despite subsequently denying anything took place; sometimes victims need to be protected from themselves.

The UK has started to take cases like this extremely seriously in the last few years and there was a whole spectrum of new laws introduced in the last while. Once you make the initial phone call for help, if there’s enough evidence that an attack took place then it’s out of the victim’s hands. This is done in order to protect them.

Having said all of that, the whole thing is a horrendous tragedy and one of the saddest things I’ve ever read about. But the CPS aren’t to blame here for trying to do their job. If they hadn’t pressed charges and god forbid Lewis died down the line, they would have had blood on their hands and a whole other social media storm would have been created.

Extremly valid points here and to be honest, points id forgotton about in the midst of the news of her death.
Its just all so sad

splinter65

SozBbz wrote: »

I do know all that, what I actually asked was was her treatment disproportionately rigorous because of her celebrity.

As for the supposed footage (which none of us have seen) they only have footage of the aftermath, not of the incident itself. Without a complaint, it’s still a bit weird to me how far this got. There was apparently a lot of blood, but they were both bleeding and shouting all sorts of wild stuff. I also find it strange how long a court order compelling herself and the boyfriend to have no contact lasted for, when both parties asked for it to be withdrawn. The prosecution already knew they had a uncooperative victim, so it’s not like she needed influence him to change his story as he was already supporting her. Normally victims have to seek protection orders. I’m aware of cases which resulted in more serious injuries, and no such separation order was put in place.

Crimes get committed every day that don’t end up in prosecutions, and of course that doesn’t mean that they never happened or that no crime was committed.

Surely though this raises questions about publicity surrounding cases dealing with those in the public eye. When you mix the pressure, shame and loneliness of the court case and court ordered isolation from her boyfriend, with the vitriol from both the mainstream and social media then it amounts to a pretty toxic perfect storm for a persons sanity and perspective.

Why do you think the CPS would proceed to a court case if the police didn’t have enough evidence to secure a conviction? Why would they bother? So much police work goes into even charging a person, never mind getting it to court.
I’m getting a whiff of hypocrisy too from some of this. If the roles were reversed and it was the late presenter on the receiving end of the alleged attack by the boyfriend and the boyfriend had taken his life having been given a court date, would he now be the subject of this outpouring of outrage about his treatment at the hands of the CPS?

SozBbz

splinter65 wrote: »

Why do you think the CPS would proceed to a court case if the police didn’t have enough evidence to secure a conviction? Why would they bother? So much police work goes into even charging a person, never mind getting it to court.

I'm not saying that that's the case here, but lets not pretend the UK or any justice system is beyond reproach and is perfect in every case. Prosecutors can be over zealous, they're just people at the end of the day. They don't always have enough evidence. Under your assertion cases would never have directed judgement or get thrown out, but they do.

SozBbz

retro:electro wrote: »

They obviously have enough footage (along with his initial phone call) to prove that she was a serious threat to him that night. Apparently he was heard screaming on the street “I was normal until I met her”, and they were both in absolute hysterics and Caroline had to be physically restrained. And that’s all we know. We’ll never know exactly what took place that night but the CPS typically don’t move forward with charges unless there is sufficient evidence that an attack took place. Reports now suggest she was absolutely terrified of this footage being made public and she couldn’t cope with the pressure of it. The no contact order was done because they believed Lewis was a victim of violence, and despite subsequently denying anything took place; sometimes victims need to be protected from themselves.

True, I've read much the same, but theres more than one reason for her to fear that footage being made public. Sure, it might have been so damming that she'd fear conviction or maybe it was the thoughts of it following her around for the rest of her life. Whatever the footage contains, it wasnt going to show her in a good light, be that criminal or otherwise just career endingly awful.

I suppose I think its worth consideration as the criticism for the CPS and their handling of matters appears to be coming from her camp. If it was just random press articles I'd consider it deflection. My point from my original post is that I'm interested to see whether her treatment would have been the same to any random John/Jane who hit their partner with a lamp. If it turns out to be exactly the same, then no issue.

We probably won't ever know what the CPS had against her as there will be no trial. Presumably there will be in inquest in due course where factors that lead to her death will be examined.

splinter65

SozBbz wrote: »

I'm not saying that that's the case here, but lets not pretend the UK or any justice system is beyond reproach and is perfect in every case. Prosecutors can be over jealous, they're just people at the end of the day. They don't always have enough evidence. Under your assertion cases would never have directed judgement or get thrown out, but they do.

I think it’s really unfortunate if you think that a prosecutor would proceed to go to court with a “celebrity” because they were “jealous” knowing that they don’t really having enough evidence, risking critiscm and close inspection if the case gets thrown out. Do you have any examples of this happening?

splinter65

Just listening to a retired prosecutor on the BBC saying that the police will have had body cam footage and CCTV footage which is now making their jobs a lot easier then what it used to be when it was just a policeman reading from his notes.

retro:electro

SozBbz wrote: »

True, I've read much the same, but theres more than one reason for her to fear that footage being made public. Sure, it might have been so damming that she'd fear conviction or maybe it was the thoughts of it following her around for the rest of her life. Whatever the footage contains, it wasnt going to show her in a good light, be that criminal or otherwise just career endingly awful.

I suppose I think its worth consideration as the criticism for the CPS and their handling of matters appears to be coming from her camp. If it was just random press articles I'd consider it deflection. My point from my original post is that I'm interested to see whether her treatment would have been the same to any random John/Jane who hit their partner with a lamp. If it turns out to be exactly the same, then no issue.

We probably won't ever know what the CPS had against her as there will be no trial. Presumably there will be in inquest in due course where factors that lead to her death will be examined.

My understanding is that it would be. Apparently body cameras are usually worn when called to domestic incidents for these very reasons, where a victim will later retract their statements and make out it was all exaggerated and nothing ever happened. Where it is clear that an attack was after taking place then the police are required to take matters into their own hands in order to protect the victim. It happens all the time, we’re only hearing if it now because Caroline was a celebrity.

retro:electro

splinter65 wrote: »

I think it’s really unfortunate if you think that a prosecutor would proceed to go to court with a “celebrity” because they were “jealous” knowing that they don’t really having enough evidence, risking critiscm and close inspection if the case gets thrown out. Do you have any examples of this happening?

To be fair I think she meant overzealous.

neonsofa

SozBbz wrote: »

True, I've read much the same, but theres more than one reason for her to fear that footage being made public. Sure, it might have been so damming that she'd fear conviction or maybe it was the thoughts of it following her around for the rest of her life. Whatever the footage contains, it wasnt going to show her in a good light, be that criminal or otherwise just career endingly awful.

.

I think people are (understandably) trying to apply logic and rational thought to a situation that is devoid of that. People do not (in general terms) take their lives when they are in a good state of mind. People are trying to make sense of an act that was committed by someone in a state of despair. And yeah you can argue that she arrived at that place because of the trial/fear of whatever evidence CPS had that would come out etc. But i think people are forgetting that she seemed to have a history of suicidal ideation, and of struggling with her mental health. So i think reading into the trial/evidence as some sort of stand alone reasoning is ignoring the very complex nature of mental health and suicide.

Emergency services had attended to caroline in the past due to fears she would take her life, when she was with another partner, long before this incident happened. So its quite clear she was struggling with her mental health for some time. The circumstances surrounding her trial clearly didnt help, but i think reading into her actions as proof that something siginificant was imminent in terms of trial evidence, is an attempt to (understandably) apply simple reasoning to a situation that is so much more complex than that.

Im not saying it wasn't a factor in her decision to take her life btw; clearly it was.

splinter65

neonsofa wrote: »

I think people are (understandably) trying to apply logic and rational thought to a situation that is devoid of that. People do not (in general terms) take their lives when they are in a good state of mind. People are trying to make sense of an act that was committed by someone in a state of despair. And yeah you can argue that she arrived at that place because of the trial/fear of whatever evidence CPS had that would come out etc. But i think people are forgetting that she seemed to have a history of suicidal ideation, and of struggling with her mental health. So i think reading into the trial/evidence as some sort of stand alone reasoning is ignoring the very complex nature of mental health and suicide.

Emergency services had attended to caroline in the past due to fears she would take her life, when she was with another partner, long before this incident happened. So its quite clear she was struggling with her mental health for some time. The circumstances surrounding her trial clearly didnt help, but i think reading into her actions as proof that something siginificant was imminent in terms of trial evidence, is an attempt to (understandably) apply simple reasoning to a situation that is so much more complex than that.

Im not saying it wasn't a factor in her decision to take her life btw; clearly it was.

I absolutely agree with you here and I know that I’m going way off topic here, but I really don’t think that attaching all the blame or any indeed of the blame on the negative SM attention or the MSM coverage she was getting and certainly the actions of CPS is in anyway helpful in mental health terms.
The very angry very emotional responses seems to be saying that if it wasn’t for the dog piling on twitter or the stories in The Sun that poor Ms Flack wouldn’t have killed herself. It’s not as simple as that.
No, it didn’t help, but it caused her to take her life when she wouldn’t have otherwise? I doubt it.

neonsofa

splinter65 wrote: »

I absolutely agree with you here and I know that I’m going way off topic here, but I really don’t think that attaching all the blame or any indeed of the blame on the negative SM attention or the MSM coverage she was getting and certainly the actions of CPS is in anyway helpful in mental health terms.
The very angry very emotional responses seems to be saying that if it wasn’t for the dog piling on twitter or the stories in The Sun that poor Ms Flack wouldn’t have killed herself. It’s not as simple as that.
No, it didn’t help, but it caused her to take her life when she wouldn’t have otherwise? I doubt it.

Tbh none of it can be looked at in isolation. Mental health issues don't exist in a vacuum either.

But addressing poor mental health and providing coping mechanisms and building resilience can prevent people from feeling so overwhelmed by those type of external factors that can be catastrophised when one is not in a good headspace.

On the other hand, there is a lot to be said for the phrase "be kind, for everyone is fighting a battle you know nothing about".

SozBbz

splinter65 wrote: »

I think it’s really unfortunate if you think that a prosecutor would proceed to go to court with a “celebrity” because they were “jealous” knowing that they don’t really having enough evidence, risking critiscm and close inspection if the case gets thrown out. Do you have any examples of this happening?

My post should have said over zealous, not jealous (phone, typo)

That said, you're naive if you think;
- celebrities don't get treated differently in all aspects of life
- that human failings don't occur in every legal system in the world

As for evidence -why does the established legal principle of "no case to answer" even exist if everything that goes to court is perfect?

LoughNeagh2017

Most on Involuntary Celibate forums i use are celebrating this death but i try to be a bit more humane and don't comment. I am a misanthrope but I believe abusing people online makes you just as bad as the people you hate. A girl also hanged herself in county derry on saturday night, aged 20, her parents found her.

SusieBlue

LoughNeagh2017 wrote: »

Most on Involuntary Celibate forums i use are celebrating this death but i try to be a bit more humane and don't comment. I am a misanthrope but I believe abusing people online makes you just as bad as the people you hate. A girl also hanged herself in county derry on saturday night, aged 20, her parents found her.

I would seriously be reconsidering my participation in any forum that celebrates the death of a person who took their own life.
Why would you want to interact with such bitter, disturbed people?

Attitudes like that rub off on others because it normalises those kinds of prejudices.
Is that really the company you want to keep?
If you are the humane person you say you are you should have a long hard think about continuing to be part of that forum.
It’s both really upsetting and depressing that such platforms even exist.

Phoenix Wright

The rest of the show is going to be very sombre I reckon. There was no first look video released today and Aftersun has been cancelled too. It must be desperately hard for all the production team that were close to Caroline. Pretty sure I read somewhere that the islanders haven't been informed

pinkyeye

I can't imagine they would inform them as they're not supposed to have any outside information.

Laura99

pinkyeye wrote: »

I can't imagine they would inform them as they're not supposed to have any outside information.

They have been told big things before but I can't for the life of me remember what!!

I do think this is slightly different though, they should be told. They will know something's going on. Also at the finale, it's normally in front of a live audience with them speaking to media almost straight away after. They have to prepare them for the questions and the heavy calls for cancelling the show.

I expected something way longer for some reason
It was very short wasn’t it?

No mood to watch the show now tbh

IAMAMORON

They should massively try to wrap it up early.