Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VII (threadbanned users listed in OP)

Leroy42

hotmail.com wrote: »

Pressure must grow on the New York Governor over his slow response to this disaster.

New York set to be the worst hit state in America.

Why would a local governor have more information that POTUS?

Surely in something such as this, the lead should have come from the POTUS. The tone was set by Trump, saying it will go from 15 to zero and it will all be fine. How can you expect a local governor to overrule POTUS? I get it that they have that power, but calling on NY to shutdown in the face of the messaging from the WH would have been very difficult.

Imagine is Cuomo had tried to act earlier, you would have had Trump blaming him for falls in stock market, inciting panic etc.

I think that after all this is done, there are very many, including the media and the WH, that will have to answer for their decisions.

BonnieSituation

hotmail.com wrote: »

Pressure must grow on the New York Governor over his slow response to this disaster.

New York set to be the worst hit state in America.

Yes. Tremendous pressure. The best pressure.

There is absolutely no possible way you can construe that opinion from all that has been going on unless you were being wilfully disingenuous. You couldn't possibly believe that.

I mean, your lack of interest in day-to-day American politics, because it doesn't affect you, should at least disqualify you from having such a contrary opinion, surely?

pixelburp

hotmail.com wrote: »

Pressure must grow on the New York Governor over his slow response to this disaster.

New York set to be the worst hit state in America.

It contains the largest city in the United States, seems unsurprising that it might be one of the worst hit states. Unless it's particularly bad in terms of population vs. infection rates?

hotmail.com

Leroy42 wrote: »

Why would a local governor have more information that POTUS?

Surely in something such as this, the lead should have come from the POTUS. The tone was set by Trump, saying it will go from 15 to zero and it will all be fine. How can you expect a local governor to overrule POTUS? I get it that they have that power, but calling on NY to shutdown in the face of the messaging from the WH would have been very difficult.

Imagine is Cuomo had tried to act earlier, you would have had Trump blaming him for falls in stock market, inciting panic etc.

I think that after all this is done, there are very many, including the media and the WH, that will have to answer for their decisions.

Governors are essentially prime minister's of each state.

The buck stops with him.

New Yorkers understand this.

TomOnBoard

Leroy42 wrote: »

Why would a local governor have more information that POTUS?

Surely in something such as this, the lead should have come from the POTUS. The tone was set by Trump, saying it will go from 15 to zero and it will all be fine. How can you expect a local governor to overrule POTUS? I get it that they have that power, but calling on NY to shutdown in the face of the messaging from the WH would have been very difficult.

Imagine is Cuomo had tried to act earlier, you would have had Trump blaming him for falls in stock market, inciting panic etc.

I think that after all this is done, there are very many, including the media and the WH, that will have to answer for their decisions.

The bottom line is that the States had NO power to test because NO TEST existed in the US. WHO made a test available. The US Administration did not accept that test, preferring that the CDC would develop its own. CDC produced a test and totally cocked it up by producing a faulty test in the 1st place AND THEN, once the errors were corrected, the Administration went into DENIAL and acted criminally slowly.

So,NO, Gov Cuomo does NOT have a case to answer re. New York. The former New Yorker (now Floridian )in the White House is the one who will be seen,in two- three weeks time, to have thousands of avoidable New York deaths on his hands!

God, bring back a POTUS who lived the plaque on his desk:

The Buck Stops Here!

Leroy42

hotmail.com wrote: »

Governors are essentially prime minister's of each state.

The buck stops with him.

New Yorkers understand this.

But not with Trump? Seriously, I have no problem with you criticising the Governor, but to do so without any hint of criticism the man with ultimate responsibility (although he personally takes no responsibility) is breathtaking.

We know Trump had info as far back as early January. We know Trump is delaying the DPA. We know Trump continued to tell everyone it was a nothingburger and nothing to worry about.

Again, can you imagine if Cuomo, on the back on no actual public information, had tried to shut down NY? It is a ridiculous notion that he would, or even could have, given the way that Trump was lying to the American people.

This is 100% on Trump's shoulders. If there were delays, they can be traced directly back to the position that Trump took at the start, and continues to take. Luckily, the more able politicians and professionals are stepping up pto fill the void in both leadership and ability that Trump leaves in his wake.

Foxtrol

pixelburp wrote: »

It contains the largest city in the United States, seems unsurprising that it might be one of the worst hit states. Unless it's particularly bad in terms of population vs. infection rates?

It does have a bad population vs infection rate but that isn't a sign of him doing a bad job.

NY are firstly testing at a much higher rate than anywhere else in the States and denser places are always going to have a higher rate of transmission.

Cuomo has been screaming for federal help for weeks now and Trump has basically shrugged his shoulders. Trump and his supporters will still blame him though when things get bad.

Christy42

hotmail.com wrote: »

Pressure must grow on the New York Governor over his slow response to this disaster.

New York set to be the worst hit state in America.

Are they or have they just tested more? It is hard to tell. I suspect a lot of the US big cities are just as badly off and plenty of rural areas are worse than the numbers show.

hotmail.com

Leroy42 wrote: »

But not with Trump? Seriously, I have no problem with you criticising the Governor, but to do so without any hint of criticism the man with ultimate responsibility (although he personally takes no responsibility) is breathtaking.

We know Trump had info as far back as early January. We know Trump is delaying the DPA. We know Trump continued to tell everyone it was a nothingburger and nothing to worry about.

Again, can you imagine if Cuomo, on the back on no actual public information, had tried to shut down NY? It is a ridiculous notion that he would, or even could have, given the way that Trump was lying to the American people.

This is 100% on Trump's shoulders. If there were delays, they can be traced directly back to the position that Trump took at the start, and continues to take. Luckily, the more able politicians and professionals are stepping up pto fill the void in both leadership and ability that Trump leaves in his wake.

Trump useless. We know that.

But each state has it's own powers. The NY Governor trying to evade criticism by pushing the blame on Trump.

Media obsession with Trump happy to oblige him.

Ben Done

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Yes. Tremendous pressure. The best pressure.

There is absolutely no possible way you can construe that opinion from all that has been going on unless you were being wilfully disingenuous. You couldn't possibly believe that.

I mean, your lack of interest in day-to-day American politics, because it doesn't affect you, should at least disqualify you from having such a contrary opinion, surely?

The lack of interest is , ahem, Trumped by the poster's general disposition to be on the wind up, across several threads.

BonnieSituation

hotmail.com wrote: »

Governors are essentially prime minister's of each state.

The buck stops with him.

New Yorkers understand this.

Governors would be essentially presidents not each state? No?

Each States' set up (senate, house, law enforcement, judiciary) is the same (or miniature version) as the federal government. Governors have huge powers in relation to their individual states to a point.

Leroy42

hotmail.com wrote: »

Trump useless. We know that.

But each state has it's own powers. The NY Governor trying to evade criticism by pushing the blame on Trump.

Media obsession with Trump happy to oblige him.

Do you really know that? I'm not so sure.

But if you agree that Trump is useless, shouldn't your ire be directed at him?

Each state has its own powers, but they are also in a federal system where the POTUS is the person with overall control. Otherwise what is the point of POTUS.

Going by you logic, all the previous stuff that Trump took credit for, unemployment numbers, stock market etc, has nothing to do with him.

Yet again, I'm going to keep asking this point. Doo you think Cuomo would have been able to shutdown NY when POTUS, and Fox News, and GOP, were all claiming that it was nothing to worry about? Try to think for a second how that would have gone down.

And how as Cuomo to know. POTUS, with all the information at his fingertips, was telling everyone that it was nothing to worry about - 15 cases down to zero. No need for testing, no need to extra equipment etc.

BonnieSituation

Ben Done wrote: »

The lack of interest is , ahem, Trumped by the poster's general disposition to be on the wind up, across several threads.

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you. But I wouldn't necessarily make such a statement myself.

serfboard

Foxtrol wrote: »

Trump and his supporters will still blame him though when things get bad.

Ah don't worry, Trump has a whole list of people to be blamed when it's all over. The Chinese, Democrats, Cuomo etc. etc. One thing's for sure - the blame will never be on him.

Remember the rule - when something is going well, it's because of Trump. When something is going badly, it's very defintely not because of Trump. This is how he has lived his whole life.

Penn

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Governors would be essentially presidents not each state? No?

Each States' set up (senate, house, law enforcement, judiciary) is the same (or miniature version) as the federal government. Governors have huge powers in relation to their individual states to a point.

I think the issue, and the difference between Cuomo and Trump, is information. Trump had earlier and far more access to greater information about the virus. That information would be supposed to trickle down to States from the Federal government, but through Trump's handling of things from the offset, States could not reasonably have been as prepared as they should have been, and are now on the back foot.

serfboard

Penn wrote: »

through Trump's handling of things from the offset, States could not reasonably have been as prepared as they should have been, and are now on the back foot.

In fact you could argue that states had to take things into their own hands, such was the appalling handling of the situation by the federal government.

Foxtrol

Penn wrote: »

I think the issue, and the difference between Cuomo and Trump, is information. Trump had earlier and far more access to greater information about the virus. That information would be supposed to trickle down to States from the Federal government, but through Trump's handling of things from the offset, States could not reasonably have been as prepared as they should have been, and are now on the back foot.

Information is an element of it but the President has far more powers. As president he can instruct companies to produce certain goods (like masks, ventilators), can take over national supply chains, can instruct the military and federal agencies to provide support, has much greater access to the media etc.

Calling governors prime minister's of each state shows a complete misunderstanding or ignorance of their powers (I know that was a different poster).

Foxtrol

Hillary is spot on for once

https://twitter.com/HillaryClinton/status/1242482103457062913?s=20

Leroy42

He is pushing hard the narrative that Flu kills more people each year and they don't shut down for that.

But of course this isn't the flu. There is no vaccine, or cure. And the numbers, based on the charts and expectations, could be many multiples higher as the contagion rate is far higher.

Trump is basically bored of this and wants to get back to playing gold and talking about the markets.

Of course if he really believes what he is saying, then he should immediately call off the proposed bail out bill. No need for corporate hand outs of everything will be back to normal next week.

BonnieSituation

hotmail.com wrote: »

Pressure must grow on the New York Governor over his slow response to this disaster.

New York set to be the worst hit state in America.

Trump now thinks it'll be over by Easter. No problem. Take that Andrew.

Manic Moran

Leroy42 wrote: »

Each state has its own powers, but they are also in a federal system where the POTUS is the person with overall control. Otherwise what is the point of POTUS.

Going by you logic, all the previous stuff that Trump took credit for, unemployment numbers, stock market etc, has nothing to do with him..

Funny you should ask that, as there are multiple schools of thought on this question.

Historically, the point of POTUS is to conduct matters of external interest (eg diplomacy, wars, international trade), and domestically the federal government is to facilitate co-ordination between and support the States. Healthcare is not in the federal government’s job description. Note how even though the Feds are paying for the National Guard in New York, they are not controlling them. An excellent example of this is the response to Katrina. Relief efforts in Louisiana lagged behind those of other States because the Louisiana governor did not give the relevant permissions to the feds, under the law at the time, Bush could not override the State (This has since been changed a bit).

The buck for this stops at the State Government, be they well supported or poor. I have seen nothing to indicate that Cuomo isn’t playing the best possible with the the hand that he has held when this started. I have not looked into the details to see whether, like in California, New York cut its healthcare and pandemic response spending. It seems that this would have exceeded the State’s capacity to fully resolve no matter what reasonable preparations could be made. However, the federal reserve of respirators is not Cuomo’s to demand. He is already ahead of most states, he’s getting one of the Navy’s two hospital ships and the Feds are footing the bill for much of his Guard activation. When Florida’s older-than-average population starts to exceed Florida’s ability to deal with the problem, I’m sure DeSantis would like to see those respirators where he is. And there is always the possibility of something entirely different piling on on top of Coronavirus which will require the distribution of the reserve. A fundamental maxim is to always maintain a reserve. If you dispatch the one you have, reconstitute a new one by pulling resources from somewhere else.

For whatever the disaster is that Trump has been with the press conferences, he seems to be doing what the advisors are telling him. If the federal SMEs are not suggesting he release the reserve, it doesn’t matter what Cuomo says. Cuomo’s looming out for New York’s interests, as he should. Not the US’s interest.

TomOnBoard

Manic Moran wrote: »

The buck for this stops at the State Government, be they well supported or poor. I have seen nothing to indicate that Cuomo isn’t playing the best possible with the the hand that he has held when this started. I have not looked into the details to see whether, like in California, New York cut its healthcare and pandemic response spending. It seems that this would have exceeded the State’s capacity to fully resolve no matter what reasonable preparations could be made. However, the federal reserve of respirators is not Cuomo’s to demand. He is already ahead of most states, he’s getting one of the Navy’s two hospital ships and the Feds are footing the bill for much of his Guard activation. When Florida’s older-than-average population starts to exceed Florida’s ability to deal with the problem, I’m sure DeSantis would like to see those respirators where he is. And there is always the possibility of something entirely different piling on on top of Coronavirus which will require the distribution of the reserve. A fundamental maxim is to always maintain a reserve. If you dispatch the one you have, reconstitute a new one by pulling resources from somewhere else.

For whatever the disaster is that Trump has been with the press conferences, he seems to be doing what the advisors are telling him. If the federal SMEs are not suggesting he release the reserve, it doesn’t matter what Cuomo says. Cuomo’s looming out for New York’s interests, as he should. Not the US’s interest.

So, Cuomo says NY needs 30000 Ventilators (Vs). They have contracted for 7,000. FEMA has offered 400. So,they're 22,600 short by his figures. According to your point, the 20,000 Vs in the reserve should stay in the reserve in order to maintain the reserve...

When and for whom would your logic release the Vs from the reserve? Never? For some States and not others? For Florida, as it has so many retired Americans? I just cant see the thought process.

Cuomo is saying:

1. Release the reserve...

2. Use the law (Defense Production Act) to TELL companies to start making Vs now, as distinct from allowing them to VOLUNTEER and make the Vs when it suits the companies... Volunteering simply wont get Vs made within the timeframe needed...

3. Fill the reserve again from the newly manufactured Vs

4. As States caseload decreases, move the Vs onto next States in need.

5. Rinse and Repeat.

Otherwise, New Yorkers will be dying like flies from lack of Vs, but the 20,000 reserve will be grand! Sorry,but it makes absolutely NO sense to me...

Foxtrol

Manic Moran wrote: »

Funny you should ask that, as there are multiple schools of thought on this question.

Historically, the point of POTUS is to conduct matters of external interest (eg diplomacy, wars, international trade), and domestically the federal government is to facilitate co-ordination between and support the States. Healthcare is not in the federal government’s job description. Note how even though the Feds are paying for the National Guard in New York, they are not controlling them. An excellent example of this is the response to Katrina. Relief efforts in Louisiana lagged behind those of other States because the Louisiana governor did not give the relevant permissions to the feds, under the law at the time, Bush could not override the State (This has since been changed a bit).

The buck for this stops at the State Government, be they well supported or poor. I have seen nothing to indicate that Cuomo isn’t playing the best possible with the the hand that he has held when this started. I have not looked into the details to see whether, like in California, New York cut its healthcare and pandemic response spending. It seems that this would have exceeded the State’s capacity to fully resolve no matter what reasonable preparations could be made. However, the federal reserve of respirators is not Cuomo’s to demand. He is already ahead of most states, he’s getting one of the Navy’s two hospital ships and the Feds are footing the bill for much of his Guard activation. When Florida’s older-than-average population starts to exceed Florida’s ability to deal with the problem, I’m sure DeSantis would like to see those respirators where he is. And there is always the possibility of something entirely different piling on on top of Coronavirus which will require the distribution of the reserve. A fundamental maxim is to always maintain a reserve. If you dispatch the one you have, reconstitute a new one by pulling resources from somewhere else.

For whatever the disaster is that Trump has been with the press conferences, he seems to be doing what the advisors are telling him. If the federal SMEs are not suggesting he release the reserve, it doesn’t matter what Cuomo says. Cuomo’s looming out for New York’s interests, as he should. Not the US’s interest.

I agree with a lot of it but some of your post is just buying into Trump PR.

Trump simply hasn't been doing what his advisers tell him when they tell him, in nearly every situation he is waiting to follow their guidance until the last minute or most times when it is too late. To make matters even worse, he is already setting things up to roll things back far too soon.

The federal SMEs might not be suggesting that they release the reserve but they are suggesting that Trump should order companies to start producing them and PPEs. Trump is again feigning that he is doing something here.

On the hospital ships, they aren't going to be there for a few weeks and when they arrive they won't directly be tasked or able to support any virus efforts. Again, more PR than any actual help.

Timberrrrrrrr

Headshot wrote: »

Wow how impressive is Governor Cuomo

NY are very very lucky to have him

Future presidential material.

TomOnBoard

Foxtrol wrote: »

I agree with a lot of it but some of your post is just buying into Trump PR.

Trump simply hasn't been doing what his advisers tell him when they tell him, in nearly every situation he is waiting to follow their guidance until the last minute or most times when it is too late. To make matters even worse, he is already setting things up to roll things back far too soon.

The federal SMEs might not be suggesting that they release the reserve but they are suggesting that Trump should order companies to start producing them and PPEs. Trump is again feigning that he is doing something here.

On the hospital ships, they aren't going to be there for a few weeks and when they arrive they won't directly be tasked or able to support any virus efforts. Again, more PR than any actual help.

Actually, if I understand the plan correctly, they'll be a great help as it is envisaged that they will treat non-Covid hospital cases from the existing cohort of in-patients who can be moved onto them,as well as new non-Covid cases such as Coronaries etc.

The Comfort ought to be in NewYork by end of next week which will hopefully be ahead of the expected Covid surge.

Christy42

Note if you are putting all of this onto state governers it means Trump's main job is suddenly the press conferences and managing to reassure people and let them know of the seriousness of the situation. As you say they have been a failure. That is an important job. Compliance is a big factor in this thing and if people think it is a hoax or no worse than the flu you will have issues. No matter what the governer says.

The CDC is not a state body. Trying to make their own tests was not a state decision. Unless states fully shut down borders by themselves they are beholden on their neighbours and so by what the president directs (it is going to be pretty tough politically for individual states to play less safe than what the president says).

This is what happens when you have a showman for a president. No real interest in planning, or details. The message gets broken up and you get a piecemeal approach across a country.

The US' vulnerability to a pandemic is not a new issue here either. Reference was made to the requirement of plans in 2016 literature due to Zika (not Trump's obviously).

I don't care about historically. The man picks candidates for the supreme court. That is not an external facing role. Obama championed serious healthcare reform, not external. Don't give me bull about Trump not being responsible at all.
The man campaigned on health care reforms ffs. He made part of his portfolio. Now he has to buck up.

Foxtrol

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Actually, if I understand the plan correctly, they'll be a great help as it is envisaged that they will treat non-Covid hospital cases from the existing cohort of in-patients who can be moved onto them,as well as new non-Covid cases such as Coronaries etc.

The Comfort ought to be in NewYork by end of next week which will hopefully be ahead of the expected Covid surge.

Comfort isn't due until mid-April, based on what Cuomo said recently, well after the surge.

Again, a 'great help' is over stating things. The Secretary of Defense described them as a 'gap-filler', they provide some support presuming everything hasn't melted down by that point but that isn't what the key needs are - them being ventilators, testing, PPE, and people to stay in social isolation. All of the latter the federal government should have and should still be doing more to help.

Itssoeasy

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Future presidential material.

Well his father nearly went for it but didn't obviously in 1992 and he was meant to have been a very decent guy. I don't know about a future president but he's certainly shown more leadership than trump has which clearly bugs trump.

Ben Done

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you. But I wouldn't necessarily make such a statement myself.

I'm afraid my tolerance of boll0xology has lowered dramatically in recent weeks.
I've been calling out space Invaders in the queue, but equally praising retail workers for the key workers they are, in recent days.

This is not a time for niceties.

It's the time for sensible people to invoke the 25th Amendment, in my opinion.

Itssoeasy

Ben Done wrote: »

I'm afraid my tolerance of boll0xology has lowered dramatically in recent weeks.
I've been calling out space Invaders in the queue, but equally praising retail workers for the key workers they are, in recent days.

This is not a time for niceties.

It's the time for sensible people to invoke the 25th Amendment, in my opinion.

That amendment can only be invoked by the cabinet of the trump administration. Which sensible people are in said administration exactly ? The only two I can think of who would be confirmed are Betsy Devos(wholly unqualified to do anything) and Ben Carson who is somehow a Brain surgeon which is slightly frightening.