Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VII (threadbanned users listed in OP)

Manic Moran

salmocab wrote: »

But they can be redistributed if needs be.

They can be. It is my belief, however, that they will not be until there is no more demand for them at wherever they are. You can bet that New York will fight tooth and nail to keep them. Which is reasonable, as New York's government is responsible to New Yorkers.

Is it often done with hypothetical patients vs actual ones?

At the national level when you're looking at a multiple-month timescale?

Oh I totally agree that it is a political decision, Manic tried to dress it up as something else.

Send all these to where they are needed now, and use the DPA to get manufacturers to make whatever they feel will be necessary. Why has Trump not invoked it? No idea.

But the greatest country in the world, the richest, biggest economy, is forcing doctors to decide who lives and who dies. Not because of a lack of resources, but in case they might be needed at some future time.

There is a pretty straightforward way to deal with this. Use the DPA to get manufacturers to make loads more.

It's a valid question, but is irrelevant to the matter of what to do with the bird that is in the hand right now.

The HSE has contracted with an Irish company to produce new ventilators in the expectation, not a guarantee because it hasn't happened yet, that they will be needed. Ireland is not at usage capacity right now. Why are not the unused ones being sent to where there is a definite need? After all, they can be replaced by new production, right? Do Irish people not care about Italians or Spaniards? Or are they being held in reserve for the likely probability that they will be needed at home, without a guarantee that when the Irish ask for them, they will be sent back. It's not as if the EU doesn't have a mechanism in place for it.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/03/14/coronavirus-eu-abandoning-italy-china-aid/

Last month, when COVID-19 began spreading rapidly in Italy, the country appealed for help via the Emergency Response Coordination Centre. “We asked for supplies of medical equipment, and the European Commission forwarded the appeal to the member states,” Italy’s permanent representative to the EU, Maurizio Massari, told me. “But it didn’t work.”

So far, not a single EU member state has sent Italy the needed supplies. That’s tragic for a country with 21,157 coronavirus infections and 1,441 deaths as of March 14, and with medical staff working under severe shortages of supplies.

I see no difference here.

TomOnBoard

Manic Moran wrote: »

I see no difference here.

That's why it's such an uphill battle debating this.

moon2

Manic Moran wrote: »

The HSE has contracted with an Irish company to produce new ventilators in the expectation, not a guarantee because it hasn't happened yet, that they will be needed. Ireland is not at usage capacity right now. Why are not the unused ones being sent to where there is a definite need? After all, they can be replaced by new production, right? Do Irish people not care about Italians or Spaniards? Or are they being held in reserve for the likely probability that they will be needed at home, without a guarantee that when the Irish ask for them, they will be sent back. It's not as if the EU doesn't have a mechanism in place for it.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/03/14/coronavirus-eu-abandoning-italy-china-aid/



I see no difference here.

Imagine ventilators being stored in Dublin while Cork is oversubscribed by 300%. Imagine the Irish government proclaiming this was the right approach because we might need them in Dublin in the future.


Imagine Dublin also deciding to not use every effort to procure additional ventilators because they already had a store which hadn't been deployed.


I would suggest this is a more accurate analogy to what is currently happening in the US.

FatherTed

VinLieger wrote: »

Looks like the states will deffinitely be overtaking China and Italy tomorrow on total infections if not today, wonder what kind of a tantrum the orange toddler will throw

Well you know he's always going on about the greatest and tremendous achievements. So in the space of a few days he will own the greatest DOW points drop, the record number of unemployment filings in 1 week and shortly the most # of Covid-19 infections in the world.

Foxtrol

Manic Moran wrote: »

I see no difference here.

On a moral level they might be somewhat similar but on a practical level that point of view doesn't have a leg to stand on.

The US is a country that controls a population of ventilators that it is choosing not to distribute to an impacted area. On the other hand, the EU is a group of countries that itself doesn't have any control ventilators and instead made an appeal to share. They are completely different.

It is like saying there is no difference between a parent choosing to let one of their children go hungry because the other well fed child might need food later and a stranger not giving to charity. One is your responsibility and the other is an act of kindness

Manic Moran

TomOnBoard wrote: »

That's why it's such an uphill battle debating this.

In the words of Christy42, "People are f'ing dying". There are unused ventilators in the EU. They have been requested through the appropriate channels. They are not being distributed. It should be as simple as that, no? Yet it is not.

This is why I don't believe any will be redistributed from New York once they are assigned. I have no delusions that US politicians, even ones from New York, are any more altruistic than European ones.

kowloon

Manic Moran wrote: »

They can be. It is my belief, however, that they will not be until there is no more demand for them at wherever they are. You can bet that New York will fight tooth and nail to keep them. Which is reasonable, as New York's government is responsible to New Yorkers.

There would have to be a phased withdrawal of ventilators to give other areas a share even if NY was still overwhelmed. Patients wouldn't have to be 'plugged out' but there would have to be someone to enforce the withdrawal of machines as they were freed up to stop them being re=allocated. It would be a hard process, like ethical triage, but necessary and a hell of a lot better than just keeping the machines shrinkwrapped in a warehouse.

hetuzozaho

Manic Moran wrote: »

The HSE has contracted with an Irish company to produce new ventilators in the expectation, not a guarantee because it hasn't happened yet, that they will be needed. Ireland is not at usage capacity right now. Why are not the unused ones being sent to where there is a definite need? After all, they can be replaced by new production, right? Do Irish people not care about Italians or Spaniards? Or are they being held in reserve for the likely probability that they will be needed at home, without a guarantee that when the Irish ask for them, they will be sent back. It's not as if the EU doesn't have a mechanism in place for it.

Yeah I think it's just a matter of me getting my head around how things work in the states etc. I see your point I think!

kowloon

hetuzozaho wrote: »

Yeah I think it's just a matter of me getting my head around how things work in the states etc. I see your point I think!

I fully accept Manic is right that NY would resist any attempt to withdraw machines, it would be a hard call, but hard calls are a part of leadership.

Christy42

Manic Moran wrote: »

In the words of Christy42, "People are f'ing dying". There are unused ventilators in the EU. They have been requested through the appropriate channels. They are not being distributed. It should be as simple as that, no? Yet it is not.

This is why I don't believe any will be redistributed from New York once they are assigned. I have no delusions that US politicians, even ones from New York, are any more altruistic than European ones.

This is not an EU storage facility. These are Irish hospitals. If there was an EU storage of ventilators I would expect them to go to Spain or Italy asap. That seems logical and would be the role of such a reserve.

Unless these ventilators are being physically removed from a hospital in Baltimore to go to New York I don't really see the similarity. There is no ship out time. You go to hospital and those ventilators are ready and waiting for you (I know you aren't in Ireland but still). That is not a reserve. That is hospital equipment.

hetuzozaho

Is there actually patients in need of ventilators in NY now that don't have access, I don't think there is, correct?

Spanish Eyes

Would love to see Trump on the podium on his own.

The nodding Donkeys are just as bad.

But they insist on being there just the same. What am I missing here.

hetuzozaho

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Would love to see Trump on the podium on his own.

He'd have no problem - he would lie and spoof all night no bother to him.

Leroy42

kowloon wrote: »

I fully accept Manic is right that NY would resist any attempt to withdraw machines, it would be a hard call, but hard calls are a part of leadership.

But it is a totally irrelevant point. The reserve is there to sort out when something like this happens. Now it has happened, the reserve is not enough and Trump is doing nothing to increase production and instead we are left with the choice of leaving ventilators gathering dust whilst some saveable people will die.

That is all that matters. This is an issue that doesn't need to be an issue. But instead of questioning why the man in charge has allowed such a situation Manic wants to lament that maybe people already hooked up to them won't be favourable to giving them up.

kowloon

Leroy42 wrote: »

But it is a totally irrelevant point. The reserve is there to sort out when something like this happens. Now it has happened, the reserve is not enough and Trump is doing nothing to increase production and instead we are left with the choice of leaving ventilators gathering dust whilst some saveable people will die.

I'm fully in agreement, I'm just addressing Manic's argument that they might never get them back if anyone else needed a share. If Trump had some empathy he should hand them over, and if he had a spine he could order a portion withdrawn to other areas.

serfboard

Manic Moran wrote: »

The HSE has contracted with an Irish company to produce new ventilators in the expectation, not a guarantee because it hasn't happened yet, that they will be needed. Ireland is not at usage capacity right now. Why are not the unused ones being sent to where there is a definite need? After all, they can be replaced by new production, right? Do Irish people not care about Italians or Spaniards? Or are they being held in reserve for the likely probability that they will be needed at home, without a guarantee that when the Irish ask for them, they will be sent back. It's not as if the EU doesn't have a mechanism in place for it.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/03/14/coronavirus-eu-abandoning-italy-china-aid/

You are right to draw attention to this and it is to the EU's shame that more wasn't done to help the Italians (and the Spaniards).

However, the comparison to the US is not completely valid. We are not a federation, with a federal government and a President with extraordinary emergency powers - should he choose to use them.

spacecoyote

Officially the largest number of cases in US now, 81,864, overtaking China (though how legitimate Chinas real count is, is debatable)

everlast75

Trump related, in that he is a proud surrogate, so I'll take this as great news

https://twitter.com/willsommer/status/1243274460226076673?s=19

moon2

hetuzozaho wrote: »

Is there actually patients in need of ventilators in NY now that don't have access, I don't think there is, correct?

The question is how long will it take to get ventilators to NY given the projected demand for them. At what rate would they need to anticipate 'needless' deaths occurring at before ventilators are brought out of storage?

Timberrrrrrrr

Is he going to read out the names of everyone that was on the bloody video conference?

hetuzozaho

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Is he going to read out the names of everyone that was on the bloody video conference?

This is awful out of the gate.

Call me Al

This is an absolute car crash briefing. What is the point of any of this complete nonsense he's coming out with. Rubbish!
It's like "hey, look at all these names I can say."

Timberrrrrrrr

Anyone think he is hinting at Cuomo when he says grandstander?

Call me Al

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Anyone think he is hinting at Cuomo when he says grandstander?

Probably.
It's a really nasty way of taking a swipe at someone. Seriously unpresidential. He's like a big baby.

listermint

So the states have 1177 dead. 2122 critical. That's more than died in 911. And the president is dicking around with the response.

delaad

hetuzozaho wrote: »

This is awful out of the gate.

We may be witnessing the death of a salesman

Foxtrol

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Anyone think he is hinting at Cuomo when he says grandstander?

Standard Trump, he calls people names from what he fears people say about him

VinLieger

Wow thats it hes dumping Pence on it

everlast75

It's tragic, but there will come a point in time where he won't go out to give the presser as the figures will be too high. His ego won't be able to take it.

VinLieger

everlast75 wrote: »

It's tragic, but there will come a point in time where he won't go out to give the presser as the figures will be too high. His ego won't be able to take it.

Im wondering if we will actually see him fully come apart live during a presser though. Hes close to it right now id say but once the numbers become completely insane what will his reaction be