Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VII (threadbanned users listed in OP)

garrettod

spacecoyote wrote: »

Read that 3 of the states that hadnt implemented stay at home policies have now done so, sort of...

They've excluded church attendance from the policy. So everyone should stay home, except to go and congregate with a potentially large group, of likely high risk people, indoors.

Its farcical to be honest, and evidently some of these state governors just don't get it. The federal government needs to he spreading a much more stark message to put some pressure on them, and the job to deliver that message belongs to the president.

While I get exactly where you are coming from, there's one important additional consideration, your dealing with Americans...

If they come out with as tough and clear a message as your referring to, at national level, it's a fair bet that there would be widespread rioting and looting, and that's before we move onto the more serious crimes with people probably shooting each other over a dispute about a can of beans.

Part of the US population would simply go bananas, while their President would probably invade the Isle of Man, in the belief that there was a weed over there that would help make him look younger, and that finding that weed was more important than doing something to help the US healthcare system.

Leroy42

garrettod wrote: »

While I get exactly where you are coming from, there's one important additional consideration, your dealing with Americans...

If they come out with as tough and clear a message as your referring to, at national level, it's a fair bet that there would be widespread rioting and looting, and that's before we move onto the more serious crimes with people probably shooting each other over a dispute about a can of beans.

Part of the US population would simply go bananas, while their President would probably invade the Isle of Man, in the belief that there was a weed over there that would help make him look younger, and that finding that weed was more important than doing something to help the US healthcare system.

No I don't think it is that. Religion, especially in the Southern states, we simply do not have the same over here. Sure we have religious people, and are a religious country, but they take it to the next level (or levels).

Many vote based on their religious beliefs, it comes before any other consideration. So politically, it is very dangerous to tell large swathes of the voters that the one thing that they believe saves them is now no longer allowed. They literally see their pastor as a direct messenger from God. It why they send them vast amounts of money, why they allow the pastors to live with private jets, massive mansions. They put more store in the word of their pastor than the POTUS, the government, heck their own family.

And it isn't just a small amount, whole towns. Thousands of people at a time. And they believe that do deny the the right to attend mass, even for an emergency such as this, is akin to trying to kill Jesus. And the politicians have tapped into this to get elected over the years and so need to be very wary of upsetting them now.

By stopping mass, they run the risk of being called out by the pastor and effectively losing every vote within that congregation in an instant

StringerBell

spacecoyote wrote: »

Read that 3 of the states that hadnt implemented stay at home policies have now done so, sort of...

They've excluded church attendance from the policy. So everyone should stay home, except to go and congregate with a potentially large group, of likely high risk people, indoors.

Its farcical to be honest, and evidently some of these state governors just don't get it. The federal government needs to he spreading a much more stark message to put some pressure on them, and the job to deliver that message belongs to the president.

This is part of why I think you are going to be looking at a minimum of 500k deaths there. Full mitigation from last week was 100k/200k, its still not full mitigation at the end of this week so I'm being conservative in my estimates.

Runaways

StringerBell wrote: »

This is part of why I think you are going to be looking at a minimum of 500k deaths there. Full mitigation from last week was 100k/200k, its still not full mitigation at the end of this week so I'm being conservative in my estimates.

The projection was 10 million by the end of April. Can only hope that won’t turn out to be the case.
But new York alone touches that in population

Joe_ Public

There seems to be some notion over there that if you're outside a major conurbation, you've little to fear. In NY, for example, NYC despite its vast population still only accounts for half the reported cases. It's everywhere and they need to start waking up to the fact.

StringerBell

Runaways wrote: »

The projection was 10 million by the end of April. Can only hope that won’t turn out to be the case.
But new York alone touches that in population

Thought they had a worst case scenario of 2.2/2.5m? Has it jumped up already by that much?

10 million deaths would be unthinkable but you couldn't rule it out completely with the **** show over there

Leroy42

StringerBell wrote: »

Thought they had a worst case scenario of 2.2/2.5m? Has it jumped up already by that much?

10 million deaths would be unthinkable but you couldn't rule it out completely with the **** show over there

2.2m is based on nothing being done what so ever. It is a nonsense figure based on nobody taking any action at all. It is aimed at giving some context - and in all probability some cover - to the final actual figure.

No one expects the number to come close to the 2.2m. They were late but even the efforts they are making in now in NYC will have an effect on the total.

Runaways

StringerBell wrote: »

Thought they had a worst case scenario of 2.2/2.5m? Has it jumped up already by that much?

10 million deaths would be unthinkable but you couldn't rule it out completely with the **** show over there

It was ten million infected I think deaths were 2.5 million though.
I posted it in here but god knows what page it was. Sorry I can’t be more specific

StringerBell

Leroy42 wrote: »

2.2m is based on nothing being done what so ever. It is a nonsense figure based on nobody taking any action at all. It is aimed at giving some context - and in all probability some cover - to the final actual figure.

No one expects the number to come close to the 2.2m. They were late but even the efforts they are making in now in NYC will have an effect on the total.

I expect 500k as a I previously expressed. I would not be surprised to see it too 1 million though.

It's gonna get very bad over there I think. Not just virus related, the fall out from that too then.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Please do not just dump videos here. Posts deleted.

TomOnBoard

StringerBell wrote: »

I expect 500k as a I previously expressed. I would not be surprised to see it too 1 million though.

It's gonna get very bad over there I think. Not just virus related, the fall out from that too then.

The bulk of Trump die-hards are getting their "news" from the Christian Broadcasting Network, Breitbart, Fox, OANN and such-like. These ppl are now looking on the Trump Administration as having "prevented" 2-2.4 million deaths by his actions. They are looking upon 200-300,000 deaths as a huge win by their Saviour at this point. I know: it's ****ing C.R.A.Z.Y. But, that's exactly what I'm hearing from one of his hard-liner Christian followers at the moment.

Dr Birx has said that a figure like 100,000 to 200,000 deaths is based on country-wide lock-down as of earlier this week. Without that, the 2-2.4 million estimate is the prediction from their models. That's based on 60% of the Population of 330 million getting infected and 1% of those infected dying from the disease or complications thereof.

Manic Moran

aloyisious wrote: »

You accept that the Captain was "well intentioned". Perhaps given the extraordinary circumstances and his overwhelming concern for those under his command, who he was witnessing on a daily basis, those facts may have been taken into consideration and he could have been reprimanded, but no - this administration is not known for its compassion or nuances approach to dealing with conflict.

The problem isn't his intention, it's his judgement. He's tied up pierside in Guam and has a few minutes to think, not facing off Liaoning by the Spratleys, yet in this low stress environment, not only does he go outside the chain of command and speak about the readiness of a national strategic asset in an unsecure line while doing so, causing alarm to both families and crew who are finding out how 'disastrous' this all is through the news and not normal channels, but if in response to a direct question from SecNav "Is there anything else you need?" he replies "no" then sends out the email anyway (Secure or not), and also says "I only need the six ventilators I have" followed by mentioning the possibility of up to 50 deaths in the email (not the attached letter, the email body itself), there is a reasonable question in the minds of his chain as to what sorts of errors or mis-statements are liable to be made in a combat zone.

The Navy is not tolerant of any failure at all on a captain's watch, no matter how mild. There is plenty of precedent for relief of command, even when many of us would say 'This is an overreaction'.

hetuzozaho

His send off from his crew is pretty cool (if video is accurate).

https://twitter.com/AmberSmithUSA/status/1246052144115077120

eire4

spacecoyote wrote: »

Read that 3 of the states that hadnt implemented stay at home policies have now done so, sort of...

They've excluded church attendance from the policy. So everyone should stay home, except to go and congregate with a potentially large group, of likely high risk people, indoors.

Its farcical to be honest, and evidently some of these state governors just don't get it. The federal government needs to he spreading a much more stark message to put some pressure on them, and the job to deliver that message belongs to the president.

In Florida the third most populous state in the US Republican Governor DeSantis actually signed a second order after his stay at home order that said his order supersedes any local orders already in place such as in Tampa which were actually stricter then his new order. So he has actually weakened what was in place at a local level in some of the most heavily populated places in Florida such as Tampa.

eire4

Joe_ Public wrote: »

There seems to be some notion over there that if you're outside a major conurbation, you've little to fear. In NY, for example, NYC despite its vast population still only accounts for half the reported cases. It's everywhere and they need to start waking up to the fact.

There is no question there are still large parts of the US outside the major cities that are in denial about the reality of what is happened and worse still what is still yet to come in the US with this virus. It seems pretty clear by far the worst days are still ahead for them.

aloyisious

Manic Moran wrote: »

The problem isn't his intention, it's his judgement. He's tied up pierside in Guam and has a few minutes to think, not facing off Liaoning by the Spratleys, yet in this low stress environment, not only does he go outside the chain of command and speak about the readiness of a national strategic asset in an unsecure line while doing so, causing alarm to both families and crew who are finding out how 'disastrous' this all is through the news and not normal channels, but if in response to a direct question from SecNav "Is there anything else you need?" he replies "no" then sends out the email anyway (Secure or not), and also says "I only need the six ventilators I have" followed by mentioning the possibility of up to 50 deaths in the email (not the attached letter, the email body itself), there is a reasonable question in the minds of his chain as to what sorts of errors or mis-statements are liable to be made in a combat zone.

The Navy is not tolerant of any failure at all on a captain's watch, no matter how mild. There is plenty of precedent for relief of command, even when many of us would say 'This is an overreaction'.

It took me some time to locate the words and post attributed to me that you replied to with yours above on page 267, as I couldn't remember writing or posting them. I think you meant it as a reply to everlast75 in his post on page 266. BTW, this isn't a moan, I just felt a bit flummoxed until I found his post.

Runaways

Cuba and China sending doctors. The US stealing others supplies.
Tell me again who is the rogue state?

https://twitter.com/danieldrepper/status/1246077614504148994

banie01

3M have confirmed that members of the Trump Admin have approached it to "request" the cease export of N95 ventilators.

https://www.ft.com/content/cee34681-5f47-416b-9cbc-d824e9eec68e

Now the really odd thing is, that Trump wants to ban 3M directly exporting but is happy for them to resell to US based distributors for onward sale.

mcmoustache

Manic Moran wrote: »

No, Texas isn't in lockdown and is on that list. I'm in Texas, I'm under lockdown, because the Governor has allowed the counties to decide what's in their best interest, and my county has decided, at 1,560people / square mile, it's necessary. A full third of Texas counties have a population density of less than 10 per square mile, some have one person for every seven or eight square miles. http://www.txcercit.org/population_density.asp . In the event that Texas gets to the stage that over half its counties are reporting at least one case, which it hasn't yet, the risk of transmission is small enough that it's not worth shutting down the county.

This reminds me of something someone said on the internet today although I think it was said in reference to States but I'll paraphrase it poorly here anyway:


That's like having p!ssing and non-p!ssing sections in a swimming pool.

aloyisious

Re the Wisconsin elections and the rulings by [federal] Judge Conley that the election allow extended postal balloting until April 13 and that the result not be announced ahead of the final count of all the ballots after that date, the Republican Party has decided to appeal the judge's orders to the 7th US circuit court of appeals as it wants things to proceed as originally set out by the state. In a statement, the GOP said the judge’s decision to change the date which absentee ballots can be received without any limit on the postmarked date “effectively changes the date of the election” and needs to be reviewed by the appeals court. It had asked the judge to allow things proceed as planned.

The Judge took into account the extra number of postal ballot papers requested due to the virus outbreak. Its being reported that a large number of polling station clerks are resigning from their offices, possibly due to fear of on the job virus infection. The outcome should be a weather-vane on how the wind is blowing for the GOP and it's administration office holders.

https://www.wisconsinvote.org/candidates-and-races

General Election & Presidential Primary
Spring Election & Presidential Primary – Tuesday, Apr. 7, 2020

duploelabs

mcmoustache wrote: »

This reminds me of something someone said on the internet today although I think it was said in reference to States but I'll paraphrase it poorly here anyway:


That's like having p!ssing and non-p!ssing sections in a swimming pool.

Actually a very good way of describing climate change

Griselda

a broken clock is right twice a day.

TomOnBoard

Manic Moran wrote: »

The problem isn't his intention, it's his judgement. He's tied up pierside in Guam and has a few minutes to think, not facing off Liaoning by the Spratleys, yet in this low stress environment, not only does he go outside the chain of command and speak about the readiness of a national strategic asset in an unsecure line while doing so, causing alarm to both families and crew who are finding out how 'disastrous' this all is through the news and not normal channels, but if in response to a direct question from SecNav "Is there anything else you need?" he replies "no" then sends out the email anyway (Secure or not), and also says "I only need the six ventilators I have" followed by mentioning the possibility of up to 50 deaths in the email (not the attached letter, the email body itself), there is a reasonable question in the minds of his chain as to what sorts of errors or mis-statements are liable to be made in a combat zone.

The Navy is not tolerant of any failure at all on a captain's watch, no matter how mild. There is plenty of precedent for relief of command, even when many of us would say 'This is an overreaction'.

This makes total sense. Senior military/navy officers should NEVER go outside the Chain of Command, unless criminality/war crime/wanton Constitutional breach is involved, and the Chain of Command is not working. Even in those cases considerable judgement would need to be exercised before going rogue. Dead right this fella was fired. He 's lucky he's not in North Korea or similar, or he'd have become an ack/ack target!

eire4

Runaways wrote: »

Cuba and China sending doctors. The US stealing others supplies.
Tell me again who is the rogue state?

https://twitter.com/danieldrepper/status/1246077614504148994

and this on the back of the US trying to bribe that German company working on a vaccine to come over to them and produce a vaccine only for them.

Manic Moran

mcmoustache wrote: »

This reminds me of something someone said on the internet today although I think it was said in reference to States but I'll paraphrase it poorly here anyway:


That's like having p!ssing and non-p!ssing sections in a swimming pool.

I've seen it. But I would counter, given I used to work IT, with an IT comparison. If the important factor is the security of the system and the data on it, and you want no hacking, leaks or virus, the best solution is to place the computer in a locked safe, disconnected from power or the world, and put it on a desert island surrounded by minefields and sharks.
It is absolutely going to do the job, and the computer is utterly useless and unproductive.

There is, to my knowledge, no jurisdiction on the planet which has created a total and complete lockdown. Some level of risk is necessary. For example, going to the shop for your groceries, permitted under every lockdown I'm aware of. Now, which is more likely to be a continued transmission hazard, a bunch of New York City folks trying to get their groceries at their 41st and 5th grocery store, or a group of country folks doing their jobs in Pecos County Texas, where almost nobody from the city goes and everyone tends to be spread out anyway? Is there a medical benefit to a lockdown of Pecos county? Certainly. Is it worth it? Very arguable.

aloyisious

There's the other thing about the virus and that's the spread-capability from human emissions. The graphs being used at the White House media briefings are all about the best and worse case scenario numbers of sick people surviving the virus and those who die as a direct result of being sickened and further weakened by it in the future. The graphs are also used by those trying to fight the virus so they can plan for the future & lay aside provisions for an eventuality - round 2 later in the year when the usual flu season begins [if there are latent spores of the virus in people it affected] waiting for an opportune time to wake up.

The latest info being made public in the UK is that the spread-range by emissions from humans may not be two [2] metres but might be six [6] metres. This was shown by way of images of a male figure coughing with liquid spraying from his mouth. I have no idea as to the reality of the info and it may be just pure guestimate on some-one's part but that's the same basis as the graphs used publicly at the White House briefings. That would also be a worst case scenario.

Re the White House graphs, there must have been a very hot discussion in the rooms there about the public display of them with the President in the foreground, giving them verisimilitude. I can't imagine people there being 100% in approval of it as it would count against the Admin stance for the past two months.

hetuzozaho

Manic Moran wrote: »

I've seen it. But I would counter, given I used to work IT, with an IT comparison. If the important factor is the security of the system and the data on it, and you want no hacking, leaks or virus, the best solution is to place the computer in a locked safe, disconnected from power or the world, and put it on a desert island surrounded by minefields and sharks.
It is absolutely going to do the job, and the computer is utterly useless and unproductive.

But what America has done is discovered that parts of their system are infected with a virus. Cut if off from the outside world. Makes sense. And are introducing steps on how to fight the virus. Makes sense. But only in some parts of the system. And all the while leaving all parts of the system connected. The bits with the virus connected to bits that are virus free. Seems like a recipe for disaster. But only time will tell.

There is, to my knowledge, no jurisdiction on the planet which has created a total and complete lockdown. Some level of risk is necessary. For example, going to the shop for your groceries, permitted under every lockdown I'm aware of. Now, which is more likely to be a continued transmission hazard, a bunch of New York City folks trying to get their groceries at their 41st and 5th grocery store, or a group of country folks doing their jobs in Pecos County Texas, where almost nobody from the city goes and everyone tends to be spread out anyway? Is there a medical benefit to a lockdown of Pecos county? Certainly. Is it worth it? Very arguable.

The Director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases thinks it's the thing to do, I'm bias though as I'm a big Fauci fan the last few weeks! ha

Joe_ Public

There was an interview with an irish guy living in Wuhan in the Irish times the other day, talking about how he was coping on day 64 of not being allowed outside his apartment. All food and necessary supplies were being delivered at various stages by communist party workers. A full 100% lockdown might be impossible but thats whats called getting close. Maybe it could only ever be an eastern thing.

Manic Moran

hetuzozaho wrote: »

The Director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases thinks it's the thing to do, I'm bias though as I'm a big Fauci fan the last few weeks! ha

Doesn't surprise me. Medically, it's the safest course, and that's all he's worried about. The question is if it's the best course overall. After all, those low-density rural places are the ones putting food on our table as we risk our health going to the grocery stores to get, and if we can reduce the economic impact for minimal medical risk, why not do so?

Water John

I suppose, at worst it's the same as getting a 3 month jail sentence from a judge. You haven't a choice. Really sympathise to those in apartments, esp with children. Also a special thought for those who have a family member with a mental impairment and cannot fully comprehend the changes and why.