Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VII (threadbanned users listed in OP)

Igotadose

ghost of ireland past wrote: »

What Trump is alleged to have done in Ukraine doesn't seem like a crime.

It meets the definition of High Crime. Words matter. High crimes threaten the republic. It's not like jaywalking.

everlast75

ghost of ireland past wrote: »

What Trump is alleged to have done in Ukraine doesn't seem like a crime. That's a problem.

2 things.
1 - It doesn't have to be a crime
2 - it could conceivably be a crime

ghost of ireland past wrote: »

It also seems as if Joe Biden did a very similar thing himself. That's a bigger problem for the democrats.

1) No he didn't. His actions are nothing like Trump.
2) There was an investigation and it was clear nothing untoward happened.
3) We are talking about Trump, as current sitting president, abusing his power.

ghost of ireland past wrote: »

Trump is just more open and more brazen about his behaviour than democrats. Bizarrely, it could be argued that Trump is more honest in that regard than Democrats.

You're right. That is absolutely a bizarre argument.

ghost of ireland past wrote: »

Democrats are living a lie and are pretending to be purer than the driven snow.

they are defending the constitution.

ghost of ireland past wrote: »

Politicis appears to be completely corrupt, on all sides. Trump is somehow immune by being the only person who is telling the truth about politics, even though he lies about everything else.

Complete and utter, Grade A horsesh1t.

Leroy42

ghost of ireland past wrote: »

What Trump is alleged to have done in Ukraine doesn't seem like a crime. That's a problem. It also seems as if Joe Biden did a very similar thing himself. That's a bigger problem for the democrats.


Trump is just more open and more brazen about his behaviour than democrats. Bizarrely, it could be argued that Trump is more honest in that regard than Democrats. Democrats are living a lie and are pretending to be purer than the driven snow.

Politicis appears to be completely corrupt, on all sides. Trump is somehow immune by being the only person who is telling the truth about politics, even though he lies about everything else.

Trump has lied in every aspect of this. What do you mean more open. He denied, and continues to deny it despite all the evidence. It is a weird notion of open that you have.

Politics may well be corrupt on all sides, but you need to start somewhere. Now do you reckon it is best to get those in power to be answerable or to deal with those without power.

If Joe Biden did something wrong, then it is of course open to anybody to blow the whistle and for an investigation to be held.

It is funny because you claim what Trump did was not a crime, but then immediately turn to tell us how terrible the Dems are. That Biden did the same. But if not a crime why does it even matter to you what Biden did. Surely you should be applauding him?

It is only a problem if you don't understand what is being alleged. Using US power to get another country to help out the US is perfectly acceptable, and is actually the job. But that is not what Trump did. Trump looked to use the power of the US for his own political gain. It had nothing to do with standing up for the US

Drumpot

ghost of ireland past wrote: »

What Trump is alleged to have done in Ukraine doesn't seem like a crime. That's a problem. It also seems as if Joe Biden did a very similar thing himself. That's a bigger problem for the democrats.


Trump is just more open and more brazen about his behaviour than democrats. Bizarrely, it could be argued that Trump is more honest in that regard than Democrats. Democrats are living a lie and are pretending to be purer than the driven snow.

Politics appears to be completely corrupt, on all sides. Trump is somehow immune by being the only person who is telling the truth about politics, even though he lies about everything else.

I think I get what you are saying and there is most definitely alot of truth to this. Both sides being as bad as each other in trying to make the other look more corrupt then they are and implying that they themselves are above such things. . But I am not sure I agree that Trump is more "honest" like you suggest.

It does certainly look like Trump has taken abuse of power to new levels, where as previous presidents would of been more reserved in its use and certainly more careful from a diplomacy POV. He also seems willing to do whatever he has to do to retain support and power. This includes an acceptance and ignoring of racist and xenophobic aggression. What exactly is he more "open" about ? They deflect and ignore any accusations so hes not accepting or acknowledging what he does wrong.

I do believe that Politics, in all countries, is just different level of corruption. I mean even in Ireland we know our own crew are about as trustworthy and morally/ethically sound as Arthur Daly, but I suppose its more blue collar cute hooer kind of corruption. It is very hard to imagine a person getting into politics, into that toxic culture and them not being poisoned by what is considered normal in that world.

everlast75

everlast75 wrote: »

They are not bothered with the general public's perception. All statements given are directed to the base. Their strategy is to keep the 35% outraged "at the left" and muddy the waters (through gas lighting, false equivalencies, attacking the media and downright lies) so much that they demoralise the remaining 65% of the voters so they won't vote.

Drumpot wrote: »

So they just ignore reason or sound arguments and the public don't care. Suppose it shouldn’t surprise me. :pac:

5 minutes later...

ghost of ireland past wrote: »

What Trump is alleged to have done in Ukraine doesn't seem like a crime. That's a problem. It also seems as if Joe Biden did a very similar thing himself. That's a bigger problem for the democrats.

Trump is just more open and more brazen about his behaviour than democrats. Bizarrely, it could be argued that Trump is more honest in that regard than Democrats. Democrats are living a lie and are pretending to be purer than the driven snow.

Politicis appears to be completely corrupt, on all sides. Trump is somehow immune by being the only person who is telling the truth about politics, even though he lies about everything else.

And then you post this?

Drumpot wrote: »

I think I get what you are saying and there is most definitely alot of truth to this. Both sides being as bad as each other in trying to make the other look more corrupt then they are and implying that they themselves are above such things.

check_six

ghost of ireland past wrote: »

What Trump is alleged to have done in Ukraine doesn't seem like a crime.

Maybe you're misunderstanding what happened.

He asked the Ukrainian President to announce that an investigation into his
domestic political rival was to take place in order to damage his rival. He did not ask him to actually do an investigation.

In order to leverage this he illegally blocked military aid that had been approved by Congress to be sent to Ukraine.

He abused his power to block the aid.

He did this purely in his own political self interest.

No national policy was furthered by attempting to strong-arm the Ukrainians.

He did not inform Congress that he was blocking the aid.

These facts should be fairly well known at this point, but there has been any amount of obfuscation and nonsense to try and re-shape the interaction as something other than what it was (it was only an "attempted" quid pro quo, the Ukrainians did not bend to his will, the aid was released after the whistle was blown, if the president does something it's not illegal, etc.). A starting point would be to actually see the transcript of the original phone call as opposed to the summary we got.

Drumpot

everlast75 wrote: »

And then you post this?

I am not sure what you are confused about ?

My next post clarifies my stance on politics in general in most countries, its corrupt to the core and you just get different kinds of corrupt parties/countries as opposed to morally/ethically sound bastions of humanity.

I am not defending Trump on any level, just making a broad observation without the emotion. He has a more aggressive, undiplomatic, in your face form of politics we are not used to seeing. I would say there have been extremely corrupt parties/leaders who are just better at concealing what they do and how they do it.

looksee

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

But that is a scurrilous suggestion as we know from testimony during the hearings that it was future aid that was held up:

So aid was held up. Why? How? Who by?
And there was true testimony at the hearings, what else was true?

Itssoeasy

So they finished up so time around 6:30/7am our time which is nearly 2am their time. So 13 hours of debate and the opening arguments will only start today.

spacecoyote

Drumpot wrote: »

Ah yeh, I get that, but I was wondering More as to what reasons are given for not allowing the process to be transparent and clean?

One of the reasons that they put forward was that only the evidence/testimonies that were accumulated during the House investigation can be used for the Senate Trial & that if they wanted to have these people testify/get further evidence then they should have done it in the house.

That argument ignores the fact that they tried to get evidence & testimony but were blocked from doing so by the Whitehouse.

Monmouth put out some interested polling data around peoples opinions on this.

57% believe that new evidence should be allowed
53% approve of the Impeachment with 49% saying Trump should be removed from office
51% say Trump admin should be compelled to testify, 29% say they should be asked to testify (so 80% overall want to hear from more people)
40% say Trump himself should be compelled, with 36% saying he should be asked to testify (so 76% want to hear from him)
52% believe Trump pressured Ukraine to investigate Biden
55% believe Rudy was acting on Trumps wishes, not independently

aloyisious

Drumpot wrote: »

Ah yeh, I get that, but I was wondering More as to what reasons are given for not allowing the process to be transparent and clean?

At this stage, its down to party voter support. As the GOP party in the Senate and House of Reps threw its weight behind Don, it would be troublesome for it to have the evidence the Dems want freed from top secret classification, presidential executive privilege and lawyer/client privilege and show it supported Don when it knew he was lying in all his denials but went along with him making it voluntarily complicit in his high crimes and misdemeanours against the people, including the GOP voters. The constitution matters less to the GOP senators and congress persons [in the main] than keeping their seats away from the Dems, bums on seats count.

aloyisious

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Another lie by the democrats last night was suggesting Ukrainian soldiers "perished" as a result of Trump holding up aid. This was done by Jason Crow who projected an LA Times article to the Senate implying as much:

Totally agree with you and Collins that facts matter. Its regretful that you and Collins don't see that that in itself is a fact [as evinced in the evidence that Mitch cant allow be shown in the senate] and not something to step around as an inconvenient truth.

hotmail.com

This constitution people here are so crazy about permits gun ownership and had to be amended to end slavery.

hotmail.com

ghost of ireland past wrote: »

What Trump is alleged to have done in Ukraine doesn't seem like a crime. That's a problem. It also seems as if Joe Biden did a very similar thing himself. That's a bigger problem for the democrats.


Trump is just more open and more brazen about his behaviour than democrats. Bizarrely, it could be argued that Trump is more honest in that regard than Democrats. Democrats are living a lie and are pretending to be purer than the driven snow.

Politicis appears to be completely corrupt, on all sides. Trump is somehow immune by being the only person who is telling the truth about politics, even though he lies about everything else.

A lot of Irish people don't realise that most people in America hate both parties and all politicians.

pixelburp

hotmail.com wrote: »

A lot of Irish people don't realise that most people in America hate both parties and all politicians.

I think that's a true statement here TBH, or most democracies, you see plenty of opinions in Irish sources on the political class neatly described as "f*ck them all". If America has a difference, it's that the Sports Team mentality is a lot stronger in its partisan system, than the consensus or populist model we have here.

aloyisious

hotmail.com wrote: »

This constitution people here are so crazy about permits gun ownership.

I agree with you in respect to gun ownership as presently defined in popular imagination. If I'm right, the original idea of guaranteeing gun ownership rights was to ensure there was a well armed and ordered militia available to protect and defend the state and populace in times of unrest or civil strife, not to guarantee gun ownership itself as a right because gun ownership was the be all and end all right in itself for all citizens. The right had a purpose in the minds of those who put the clause in the constitution. One didn't have to wait for the quartermaster to show up with the keys to the armoury in cases of emergency. The present NRA and gun-ownership lobby "understanding" of the rights existence has turned the raison d'etre for the rights placement in the constitution on its head.

StringerBell

aloyisious wrote: »

Point made on CNN coverage that Mitch McConnell temporarily lost control of his group and had to cede ground to the honest waverers and change his plans on how things were to go at the trial GOP-wise. Now he's asked for a 2 hour recess after the input by Jason Crow and Adam Schiff, presumably to get a sounding on how his troops feel and decide what to do next.

There is nobody better than Mitch at the dark arts of politicking imo and I wasn't so sure he lost any control at all rather that he gave some cover to the likes of Collins.

hotmail.com

aloyisious wrote: »

I agree with you in respect to gun ownership as presently defined in popular imagination. If I'm right, the original idea of guaranteeing gun ownership rights was to ensure there was a well armed and ordered militia available to protect and defend the state and populace in times of unrest or civil strife, not to guarantee gun ownership itself as a right because gun ownership was the be all and end all right in itself for all citizens. The right had a purpose in the minds of those who put the clause in the constitution. One didn't have to wait for the quartermaster to show up with the keys to the armoury in cases of emergency. The present NRA and gun-ownership lobby "understanding" of the rights existence has turned the raison d'etre for the rights placement in the constitution on its head.

Americans can have all the crazy gun laws they want. That's their business.

I suppose I just find it unusual for Irish people to be so fond of this particular constitution.

looksee

hotmail.com wrote: »

Americans can have all the crazy gun laws they want. That's their business.

I suppose I just find it unusual for Irish people to be so fond of this particular constitution.

Its a discussion forum. 'Irish people' are not particularly 'fond' of the US constitution, its just something to be interested in, have an opinion on and discuss. No-one is under any illusion that this discussion will make the smallest bit of difference.

aloyisious

hotmail.com wrote: »

Americans can have all the crazy gun laws they want. That's their business.

I suppose I just find it unusual for Irish people to be so fond of this particular constitution.

Probably because it gave promise of, and had, proven safe haven for X amount of living Irish people and dead relatives of the Irish.

pixelburp

hotmail.com wrote: »

Americans can have all the crazy gun laws they want. That's their business.

I suppose I just find it unusual for Irish people to be so fond of this particular constitution.

You say this every few pages, and honestly at this stage I'm not sure what exactly you're expecting to be different? It has been explained, or at least posited to you a half dozen times now why Irish people here blather about Trump and all things American.

aloyisious

StringerBell wrote: »

There is nobody better than Mitch at the dark arts of politicking imo and I wasn't so sure he lost any control at all rather that he gave some cover to the likes of Collins.

Edit: Senator Collins, the one in whom the urge to pretend to switch horses is strong.

hotmail.com

pixelburp wrote: »

You say this every few pages, and honestly at this stage I'm not sure what exactly you're expecting to be different? It has been explained, or at least posited to you a half dozen times now why Irish people here blather about Trump and all things American.

The context is the impeachment and the US Constitution.

Quin_Dub

StringerBell wrote: »

There is nobody better than Mitch at the dark arts of politicking imo and I wasn't so sure he lost any control at all rather that he gave some cover to the likes of Collins.

Absolutely - He put in the 24 hrs over 2 Days thing knowing that it wouldn't fly and perfectly happy to make the changes he did.

Now however , Collins ( probably the most at risk GOP Senator in November) gets to tell people that she was the one that insisted on the change so she can try to look a bit bi-partizan.

aloyisious

hotmail.com wrote: »

The context is the impeachment and the US Constitution.

I'd suggest that the Irish are not the only nation of people around the world following the Trump impeachment trial in the US with interest. The power of impeachment is in the constitution inseparable.

pixelburp

hotmail.com wrote: »

The context is the impeachment and the US Constitution.

"All things American". You pop along every now and again and make do the same metaphorical head-shake that we would talk about American politics, however slightly varied the originating subject might be. Trump, Gun Laws, Impeachment (which, well, is about Trump), and so on. Which, given the executive power the President holds, invariably spins back to Trump anyway.

mcmoustache

hotmail.com wrote: »

I suppose I just find it unusual for Irish people to be so fond of this particular constitution.

This thread isn't all of Ireland. It's a thread for those with an interest in US politics. On boards.ie, you'll find that there are all sorts of forums, many of which you are not forced to take an interest in.

In fact, there are so many forums where you could to do your tiresome "I don't know why you're interested" shtick, and yet, you're fixated on this one.

Why not head off to the Soccer forum and post about how you don't understand why people would have an interest in soccer? You don't have to do anything different to what you're doing now - just switch US politics for soccer. Very little original thought required.

aloyisious

It seems that Don, in his speech to the media at Davos today, may have been bragging in a restrained way about the trial in Washington and how his Admin has withheld material from the trial jurors. He said that "we have all the material, they don't". That might help the Dems when it come to the publics understanding of Dons input into the causal behind the trial, that Don is deliberately withholding the facts behind his actions from it.

During the same speech, Don also said that when he put out his transcript of the call to Ukraines president, the Dems said "wait a minute, this is different to what shifty shiff said". I might have an erroneous memory of the transcript release but I thought Adam Schiff only talked about the transcript after it was released by Don and his Admin. Then again it might be that Don is the one with an erroneous memory. I don't want to say that Don might have been lying to the international media in Davos.

According to CNN, more Email material has come to light in respect to the "shutdown" put on the transfer of the senate-approved monies to Ukraine and that is that the shutdown started hours before Don conversed with the Ukrainian President. That might have actually been revealed in the past by other Emails and the new info just confirmation of them.

Don also described Lev Parnas as a groupie who keeps showing up at meeting when asked about them being at the same photographed event.

Thargor

mcmoustache wrote: »

This thread isn't all of Ireland. It's a thread for those with an interest in US politics. On boards.ie, you'll find that there are all sorts of forums, many of which you are not forced to take an interest in.

In fact, there are so many forums where you could to do your tiresome "I don't know why you're interested" shtick, and yet, you're fixated on this one.

Why not head off to the Soccer forum and post about how you don't understand why people would have an interest in soccer? You don't have to do anything different to what you're doing now - just switch US politics for soccer. Very little original thought required.

How many times has he told us how confusing he finds our interest in US politics because we're Irish? I think he must have said it about 20 times at this stage, does he ever ask Sky News why British people are so interested in the subject seeing as they devote 20% of their coverage to this ****show?

B0jangles

Thargor wrote: »

How many times has he told us how confusing he finds our interest in US politics because we're Irish? I think he must have said it about 20 times at this stage, does he ever ask Sky News why British people are so interested in the subject seeing as they devote 20% of their coverage to this ****show?

It's an attitude that appears to derive from the Southpark School of Political Engagement - all politicians are corrupt, both sides are as bad as each other, the coolest stance is to be right in the middle, loudly declaring how much you Don't Care.