Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VII (threadbanned users listed in OP)

Leroy42

Blueshoe wrote: »

President Trump is to sign an executive order under the defence production act to keep them open. They have been designated as "critical services"

Wait a minute. Wasn't this the same POTUS Trump that refused to use the DPA to get ventilators because he didn't need it, he would simply tell the companies to do it?

Yet another failure of Trump.

aloyisious

kowloon wrote: »

Mattis mentions Trump's previous Vietnam involvement about a minute into this video, although his opinion of him is shown from the start.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_sG7N7pJ6g

Who is the gent to the [onscreen] left of General Mattis? I have Rudy Giuliani in my minds eye.

The Nal

Can't really knock Trump for not going to Vietnam. Smart move. And the right thing to do.

Roanmore

I'm old enough to remember the uproar from the Republicans when Clinton was going for the Presidency and the fact that he never served in Vietnam and how he would be unfit to be Commandeer in Chief, draft dodger, etc.

Since then there have been 2 Republican Presidents who both got out of going to Vietnam and now it's not a problem at all.
In fact they ran a smear campaign against John Kerry, a guy who actually served in Vietnam.

The Nal

The Nal wrote: »

Can't really knock Trump for not going to Vietnam. Smart move. And the right thing to do.

I dont think its because he skipped the draft, its was more his attitude later of encouraging people to join when he wouldn't do it himself. Another example of his hypocricy. And the way spoke about John McCain.

Leroy42

The Nal wrote: »

Can't really knock Trump for not going to Vietnam. Smart move. And the right thing to do.

Fine, but be an objector then. Stand up for what he believes. Instead he hid behind a lie.

And don't knock those that did and got caught, or demean other soldiers just because their parent vote Democrat. And then don't claim to love veterans when you clearly don't agree with war itself or think people should partake in it.

Trump didn't skip Vietnam because of some view that the war was wrong, he skipped it because he didn't think he should have to fight and that others should do it instead.

sid waddell

Trump dodged the draft not because of any objection to war whatsoever, but because he believed that privileged, cossetted young white men from elite families, such as himself, were inherently superior to young men from poor, marginalised and ethnic minority backgrounds. That the poor and the marginalised should be the ones to fight - not people like him.

He was a coward any way you look at it, and he remains so to this day. Cowardice is something that has been a defining characteristic of his entire life.

salmocab

Leroy42 wrote: »

Fine, but be an objector then. Stand up for what he believes. Instead he hid behind a lie.

And don't knock those that did and got caught, or demean other soldiers just because their parent vote Democrat. And then don't claim to love veterans when you clearly don't agree with war itself or think people should partake in it.

Trump didn't skip Vietnam because of some view that the war was wrong, he skipped it because he didn't think he should have to fight and that others should do it instead.

And they could have done with him too because he knows more than the generals

Leroy42

sid waddell wrote: »

Trump dodged the draft not because of any objection to war whatsoever, but because he believed that privileged, cossetted young white men from elite families, such as himself, were inherently superior to young men from poor, marginalised and ethnic minority backgrounds. That the poor and the marginalised should be the ones to fight - not people like him.

He was a coward any way you look at it, and he remains so to this day. Cowardice is something that has been a defining characteristic of his entire life.

And that is the other thing that really gets me. Some many of the patriots, the ones that claim to love the military and the US, are so in favour of him.

They totally ignore the fact that he is a coward, he is the very opposite of everything they believe in.

Colin Kapernick kneeling is an front to the US and the military, but a draft dodger is the guy they believe in?

Hintel

Leroy42 wrote: »

Fine, but be an objector then. Stand up for what he believes. Instead he hid behind a lie.

And don't knock those that did and got caught, or demean other soldiers just because their parent vote Democrat. And then don't claim to love veterans when you clearly don't agree with war itself or think people should partake in it.

Trump didn't skip Vietnam because of some view that the war was wrong, he skipped it because he didn't think he should have to fight and that others should do it instead.

War is a mugs game esp these political wars

Can't fault trump for dodging it imo

The Nal

sid waddell wrote: »

Trump dodged the draft not because of any objection to war whatsoever, but because he believed that privileged, cossetted young white men from elite families, such as himself, were inherently superior to young men from poor, marginalised and ethnic minority backgrounds. That the poor and the marginalised should be the ones to fight - not people like him.

He was a coward any way you look at it, and he remains so to this day. Cowardice is something that has been a defining characteristic of his entire life.

Thousands of others did too. Went up to Canada, telling people they were gay, getting really drunk and high the night before their medical and so on.

By the time Trumps number was up it was clear the war was a disaster and unjust. Of all the many things we can use to bash him, this isn't one of them.

pixelburp

A conscientious objection to Vietnam is not the issue in of itself; rather it puts into stark relief Trump's vocal declarations that he would "bomb ISIS into the stone age", or that he knew more about that group than the generals - a particularly egregious, ignorant boast. He has not been shy about talking big when it comes to military intervention, coming off like nothing more than the puffed chest of a Paper Tiger. Picking fights with Gold Star families wasn't a good look either given his own military history, though that didn't do the kind of damage it would have for any other candidate. Trump hasn't earned the right to either criticise the military, or act the Tough Guy either.

amandstu

The Nal wrote: »

Thousands of others did too. Went up to Canada, telling people they were gay, getting really drunk and high the night before their medical and so on.

By the time Trumps number was up it was clear the war was a disaster and unjust. Of all the many things we can use to bash him, this isn't one of them.

Some people may have been taking a principled stand,some self serving (and some complied against their private feelings) . Is there any evidence that Trump's was principled?

Is everyone who disagrees with and evades a call up to the military entitled to do so with no consequences?

True ,it may not be productive to harp on about this if people have their minds made up ,but there is no reason to give this man any kind of a pass.

I knew a man in Paris who told his girlfriend he had deserted from Vietnam. He went out one night and returned to say he had been beaten up by the police ,only to admit he had beaten himself up.

Look up "mythomane". From poor memory I think he could also make music from his arse. (there may be a word* for that too:pac:)



*edit .it is "petomane" I now remember

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_P%C3%A9tomane

Leroy42

Whatever about Trump dodging the draft, why then did he take such a stand against the likes of Kapernick for taking a stand to what they believed in? That is where this line about Trump taking a stand makes no sense.

He said it was a slap in the face of the military, so what is draft dodging then?

But people seem to excuse Trump for running away from his countries call, but then see him as the man taking a stand against those that that stand up for their country

briany

I'd say Trump believes he served his country by building casinos and hotels.

America's military needs an underclass to staff it. For many, it seems like joining is a way out of their dead-end town, with some nice perks at the end of your service. Trump, though, did not need such a leg up. He was already on the gravy train.

It is galling, though, that some of those who dodged the draft turned out to be the biggest jingoists around. Ted Nugent is another one.

Tchaikovsky

briany wrote: »

I'd say Trump believes he served his country by building casinos and hotels.

America's military needs an underclass to staff it. For many, it seems like joining is a way out of their dead-end town, with some nice perks at the end of your service. Trump, though, did not need such a leg up. He was already on the gravy train.

It is galling, though, that some of those who dodged the draft turned out to be the biggest jingoists around. Ted Nugent is another one.

John Bolton too. Okay with sending other people to die abroad.

duploelabs

The Nal wrote: »

Oh absolutely yeah not defending that. Just the "hes a coward" because he didn't want to go thing is a bit off. Thats smart in my mind.

It was a draft, not an option to do it. Trump cheated (well his father/doctor) to get out of doing it

pixelburp

The Nal wrote: »

Oh absolutely yeah not defending that. Just the "hes a coward" because he didn't want to go thing is a bit off. Thats smart in my mind.

It's only smart though if he followed it up with any form of ethical bias that tracked with the desire to avoid conflict. Instead his subsequent behaviour makes him appear craven and, yeah, cowardly.

Boasting about knowing more about ISIS than the generals, or a keenness to start with the military option, absolutely makes him the worst kind of coward - the chickenhawk. Talks a big game, willing to put others in harms way in fact, but is too feeble to put his own skin in the game. Even his excuse was kind of pathetic. Bone spurs FFS.

Mix that in with the hypocisy where he attacks those who might passively protest like Kapernick, or the bereaved Gold Star families of Americans who had given their lives for the nation. But of course, it's Trump. He possesses that ability to slip from a controversy that has sunk politicians throughout the ages. Michael Dukakis must be looking at all this and going "how is he getting away with this?? All I did was sit in a tank"

The Nal

duploelabs wrote: »

It was a draft, not an option to do it. Trump cheated (well his father/doctor) to get out of doing it

So did millions of people. Like Bill Clinton.

bad2dabone

Hintel wrote: »

War is a mugs game esp these political wars

Can't fault trump for dodging it imo

Nobody is condemning someone for being an objector.

They're condemning his cowardice and bluster

duploelabs

The Nal wrote: »

So did millions of people. Like Bill Clinton.

Oh the whataboutery......

Did Clinton berate a gold star family?

The Nal

duploelabs wrote: »

Oh the whataboutery......

Did Clinton berate a gold star family?

No, but he avoided/dodged the draft as a young man just like Trump did. Thats all I'm saying. So did millions of other young men who didn't want to die.

Trumps subsequent behaviour towards military families, McCain etc has been disgraceful.

pixelburp wrote: »

Mix that in with the hypocisy where he attacks those who might passively protest like Kapernick, or the bereaved Gold Star families of Americans who had given their lives for the nation.

They only think they gave their lives for the nation. Like in Iraq for example. What a waste. A completely illegal war that should have made the POTUS a war criminal.

The Khan family for example. Used by the Bush administration, used by Hillarys campaign for cheap political points and then used by Trump for even cheaper political points.

Christy42

The Nal wrote: »

No, but he avoided/dodged the draft as a young man just like Trump did. Thats all I'm saying. So did millions of other young men who didn't want to die.

Trumps subsequent behaviour towards military families, McCain etc has been disgraceful.



They only think they gave their lives for the nation. Like in Iraq for example. What a waste. A completely illegal war that should have made the POTUS a war criminal.

The Khan family for example. Used by the Bush administration, used by Hillarys campaign for cheap political points and then used by Trump for even cheaper political points.

Clinton organised demonstrations against the war. He was very clearly against the war.

Trump dodged the draft and then gave out to others for not fighting well enough in the war.

There is a clear difference.

Zubeneschamali

In an interview, Trump claimed that screwing around was his Vietnam:

"I'm having a good time, but Howard, you know the one negative: It's very, very dangerous out there," said Trump.

"Yes it is, it's your Vietnam," added Stern.

"It's Vietnam," added Trump. "It is very dangerous. So I'm very, very careful."

Trump brought up Vietnam himself earlier in that interview, saying more men died of STDs than died in that war.

banie01

The Nal wrote: »

So did millions of people. Like Bill Clinton.

In fairness Clinton was hauled over the coals for his Anti-Vietnam stance.

There is a marked moral and ethical difference between taking direct action, protesting and opposing the Vietnam war and taking a position on it.
And between having your family doctor give a spurious spur diagnosis.

Trump has demeaned many Service men and their families.
He has taken hypocritical positions regarding disagreeing vehemently with one person's right to protest by taking a knee, and yet supporting the rights of armed groups right to protest by barracking government buildings.

There is no rational argument that presents Trump's stance and actions regarding military service as anything other than do as I say, not as I do.

The Nal

banie01 wrote: »

In fairness Clinton was hauled over the coals for his Anti-Vietnam stance.

There is a marked moral and ethical difference between taking direct action, protesting and opposing the Vietnam war and taking a position on it.
And between having your family doctor give a spurious spur diagnosis.

Trump has demeaned many Service men and their families.
He has taken hypocritical positions regarding disagreeing vehemently with one person's right to protest by taking a knee, and yet supporting the rights of armed groups right to protest by barracking government buildings.

There is no rational argument that presents Trump's stance and actions regarding military service as anything other than do as I say, not as I do.

Oh sure. And Im not defending Trump at all. Only point I was making is that not going to that war and doing what you could to avoid it was a good thing. Even if its just for very selfish reasons. Agree with everything else. Hypocritical, nasty etc.

Theres just so many other things worthy of ridicule about the man, this one action is well down the list.

TomOnBoard

aloyisious wrote: »

Who is the gent to the [onscreen] left of General Mattis? I have Rudy Giuliani in my minds eye.

Ray Kelly, former police commissioner, NYPD

kowloon

Manic Moran wrote: »

Might be an interesting exercise, mind. Maybe those folks in the cities might actually realise that those flyover States are more critical than they like to give them credit.

The urbanites always forget where their food comes from, it's good for them to learn every once in a while that maintaining a domestic supply is worth the subsidies.

Christy42

kowloon wrote: »

The urbanites always forget where their food comes from, it's good for them to learn every once in a while that maintaining a domestic supply is worth the subsidies.

I think cities tend to be much more in favour of socialism than the countryside so it seems unlikely that cities will vote for removing subsidies.

kowloon

The Nal wrote: »

Oh sure. And Im not defending Trump at all. Only point I was making is that not going to that war and doing what you could to avoid it was a good thing. Even if its just for very selfish reasons. Agree with everything else. Hypocritical, nasty etc.

Theres just so many other things worthy of ridicule about the man, this one action is well down the list.

I think the issue is hypocrisy. If you're taking a stand against the war fair enough, but if you dodged the draft because you think that it's someone else's problem you would be wise to keep your mouth shut. Trump didn't do that and has bitched about Vietnam vets, McCain in particular for the crime of spending time as a POW. And through it all, he tries to make out he's some sort of natural-born military genius who knows better than the professionals. Like with most other Trump scandals, things would just be better and he'd seem like less of a see you next Tuesday if he just kept his gob shut. But that's too much to ask of him.

Christy42 wrote: »

I think cities tend to be much more in favour of socialism than the countryside so it seems unlikely that cities will vote for removing subsidies.

The countryside populated largely by farmers - as opposed to small towns and villages dotted around the place - see the necessity of subsidies.
The UK will be the place to watch. A pace that can't feed itself, and hasn't been able to in over a century, voting to leave the economic block that subsidised their farmers. And with a largely urban population that literally doesn't know how the sausage is made.