Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VII (threadbanned users listed in OP)

Plus the Bishop has called out the actions of Trump in relation to the church.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/02/outrageous-christian-leaders-reject-trump-use-of-church-as-prop-during-george-floyd-protests

ExMachina1000

robinph wrote: »

It was peaceful until the police fire tear gas and rubber bullets at the crowd and beat journalists with their shields and chased the priests from their position of handing out bottles of water on the steps of the church. Very peaceful and a completely suitable way to get the president to have his photo taken.

And if you can admit that protest was peaceful then what happened to the line about the protests not being peaceful? You were right about protests only ending when the police forcible break them up admittedly.

So because this incident outside the White House was peaceful you are saying the protests across the 30 something cities are also peaceful.
How many video clips would you like to convince you? 50? 70?

Do the four police shot yesterday count? How about the officer killed over the weekend? Does he count. He was black. Does that make him count?

The businesses burnt, people assaulted, shops looted. Does any of that register with you or are you just blinkered to see Trump?

Leroy42

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

This isn't a peaceful protest. Don't even pretend different. I could link bomb 100s of videos of rioting, looting, violence, assault etc.
Four police officers shot overnight


Don't go down the "it's a peaceful protest " road

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

It was peaceful. Trump got the police to clear his path so he could take a photo.

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

So because this incident outside the White House was peaceful you are saying the protests across the 30 something cities are also peaceful.
How many video clips would you like to convince you? 50? 70?

Do the four police shot yesterday count? How about the officer killed over the weekend? Does he count. He was black. Does that make him count?

The businesses burnt, people assaulted, shops looted. Does any of that register with you or are you just blinkered to see Trump?

OK, so you have the ability to shout and scream. But what is your actual solution? The majority of the protestors are clearly peaceful. You think that dumpling them all into the same boat is the answer?

That is a failure of the police. They should be able to handle the minority of criminals whilst allowing the peaceful to go about their constitutional rights.

Would you be in favour of all gun owner giving up their guns until the issue of school shootings is sorted out, sure they can deal with the fallout after?

Tea drinker

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

It was peaceful. Trump got the police to clear his path so he could take a photo.

Was there a curfew? Did they obey police instructions?
Yellow vest regularly get beaten when they don't disperse or obey the instructions. Pretty much universal that protestors get beat, it's a popular past time in EU too. May have been an ill judged move by Trump nonetheless

banie01

Successful policing is built upon and predicated on the consent of those being policed.

How the citizenry views and engages with its police is vital to how policing functions.
Do Black Americans see the police as a protective body whose primary duty is in ensuring the safety and security of them and their communities?

Or do they see in the actions of their police, an enforcement arm of discriminatory laws and overt control?

The epithet of "protect and serve" is hard to believe when you are subject to policing methods that would make an Israeli blush.

I've posted on other threads over the years on my opinion of the fragmentary and militarised nature of US policing.
US police departments have legal precedent allowing them to restrict hiring officers with IQ above 104!
Obstensibly to allow retention of "trained" officers as smarter cops quit!
And... Who wants smart cops anyway?

The fact that each and every county has its own police force/sheriff's department (albeit with usually statewide academies) with multiple redundant levels of management leads to poor overall standards of policing.

The militarisation of even small and local US police forces has led to a culture of confrontation rather than de-escalation and leads to further violence.

Professor Moriarty

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

It was peaceful. Trump got the police to clear his path so he could take a photo.

Trump caused these protests to persist. He's making political hay by fuelling the divisions. He's a horrible, horrible person who is using division to distract from the disastrous mess he's made of Coronavirus and is now painting himself a strongman who will save America. Anybody who believes in this egotistical clown is a useful idiot at best.

robinph

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

So because this incident outside the White House was peaceful you are saying the protests across the 30 something cities are also peaceful.
How many video clips would you like to convince you? 50? 70?

Do the four police shot yesterday count? How about the officer killed over the weekend? Does he count. He was black. Does that make him count?

The businesses burnt, people assaulted, shops looted. Does any of that register with you or are you just blinkered to see Trump?

Here is a few clips put together for you of police and peaceful protestors getting on fine together without needing to drive police vehicles through the crowd or fire tear gas and rubber bullets at them.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-52883495/george-floyd-uplifting-moments-from-peaceful-protests

Maybe there is a way to police without smashing heads together? And maybe if you don't threaten to shoot people they might not kick off in the same extent in the first place?

If you go in and start shooting people you just end up with a bunch of people that want to throw stuff back at you.

Christy42

Tea drinker wrote: »

Was there a curfew? Did they obey police instructions?
Yellow vest regularly get beaten when they don't disperse or obey the instructions. Pretty much universal that protestors get beat, it's a popular past time in EU too. May have been an ill judged move by Trump nonetheless

Literally no one I have seen has reported orders to disperse. Even the priests who were not actively part of the protest just said police appeared and then there was tear gas.

Also Trumps photo op was before curfew (plus shouldn't Trump be following example and not walking down the street for an Instagram style pic if it was after curfew).

Trump and republicans wanted protestors to be peaceful. Protestors just got shown what happens if they are peaceful.

ExMachina1000

Leroy42 wrote: »

OK, so you have the ability to shout and scream. But what is your actual solution? The majority of the protestors are clearly peaceful. You think that dumpling them all into the same boat is the answer?

That is a failure of the police. They should be able to handle the minority of criminals whilst allowing the peaceful to go about their constitutional rights.

Would you be in favour of all gun owner giving up their guns until the issue of school shootings is sorted out, sure they can deal with the fallout after?

I don't think the groups stand separate to each other so the police can just walk in and pick them out.

You really should watch some of the videos of the riot.

Your last paragraph is more divisive rubbish that the world doesn't need.

I am not your enemy nor am I a supporter of trump but some of you are in cloud cuckoo land if you don't think that riots on a national scale can be brought under control without force. Insanity.

And before you kick off. Force does not mean shooting people dead on the streets

ancapailldorcha

No insults or nicknames please. Post and response deleted.

Leroy42

Its not that I don't think that force isn't required, I have stated a number of times that the criminals need to be dealt with, but the line you glossed over as divisive rubbish is at the heart of this. We know some people with guns kill other people. We know some of the protestors cause damage and looting. Your response to the second is to lock everyone down, send in the military and crack some heads and deal with the fallout later.

It is telling that you don't apply that same logic to a situation that causes far more death in the US that these riots.

So it is not about saying you, or I, are right or wrong, it is looking for workable solutions. Trump thinks sending the army in, basically treating his fellow citizens as terrorists, is the answer. And in the short term of course it would work. But the Army can't walk the streets forever, and when they leave, the problem is now much much worse.

Sending the army in against your own people rarely works out for the best. The police need to use intelligence to target the ring leaders. It appears that they are totally blind and unable to deal with the problem so Trumps answer seems to be to treat everyone as a potential threat.

Even yesterday, he ordered tear gas and riot police to move on a peaceful protest. There was simply no justification of that and it will only lead to the conclusion that the government simply wants to treat everyone as a terrorist and do what they want.

duploelabs

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

I don't think the groups stand separate to each other so the police can just walk in and pick them out.

You really should watch some of the videos of the riot.

Your last paragraph is more divisive rubbish that the world doesn't need.

I am not your enemy nor am I a supporter of trump but some of you are in cloud cuckoo land if you don't think that riots on a national scale can be brought under control without force. Insanity.

And before you kick off. Force does not mean shooting people dead on the streets

When about a carefully worded address to the nation appealing for calm on both sides and a full investigation in to racial profiling by the police force?

Can think of 44 US presidents who'd do this. Unfortunately, even though he's had multiple oppourtunity to do this, Trump has not

ExMachina1000

duploelabs wrote: »

When about a carefully worded address to the nation appealing for calm on both sides and a full investigation in to racial profiling by the police force?

Can think of 44 US presidents who'd do this. Unfortunately, even though he's had multiple oppourtunity to do this, Trump has not

Agreed.

The riots still need to be brought under control. Its undeniable

duploelabs

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Agreed.

The riots still need to be brought under control. Its undeniable

So you're saying that an address by Trump would do nothing to quell them? What do you think they're rioting for????

ExMachina1000

duploelabs wrote: »

So you're saying that an address by Trump would do nothing to quell them? What do you think they're rioting for????

No nothing. He is hated too much. Nobody cares what he says. He actually made it worse.
The protest was about the murder. Then rioters and thugs who are more interested in stealing, arson and attacking the police joined in.
You won't talk them down. Government needs to retake the streets

Quin_Dub

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Agreed.

The riots still need to be brought under control. Its undeniable

Indeed - But it needs a bit of Carrot and not just an ever larger stick!

Sending more and more armed units (regardless of who they actually are) into the streets doesn't begin to solve the problem it just temporarily supresses it..

It needs all channels working - Get talking to the right civic leaders etc. and they help getting the "moderates" off the streets , they could also help in isolating the real criminals that have jumped into an opportunity to commit crimes. Once you've achieved that , then you can go in and those that remain on the streets can have little complaint about getting arrested.

Repeatedly threatening to beat people until they do what you want is not the answer and never will be.

Trump refusal/inability to actually communicate with anyone about anything is not helping..

I mean , Rush Limbaugh appeared on Charlemagne the Gods Radio Show yesterday to debate the issues.

That's the kind of stuff that needs to happen here - Two very opposite sides of the issue debating the issues and finding some common ground.

When Rush Bloody Limbaugh could be viewed as more open to reasonable debate about race relations than you are , you have a major problem..

Midlife

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Agreed.

The riots still need to be brought under control. Its undeniable

Without treating every peaceful protestor as a rioter.

I think that was the point being made

Foxtrol

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

No nothing. He is hated too much. Nobody cares what he says. He actually made it worse.
The protest was about the murder. Then rioters and thugs who are more interested in stealing, arson and attacking the police joined in.
You won't talk them down. Government needs to retake the streets

They need competent law enforcement, which has been on display in very few places in the last week. Repeatedly we saw police escalating things when it is not necessary and then being incredibly passive when they should be aggressive. Part of it is the tough man persona of wanting to attack weak peaceful protesters, while being scared of looters and rioters, but it doesn't explain everything.

Looking at NY, they've time and again gone heavy handed with an army of officers to clear streets of peaceful protesters, while having no officers posted in obvious spots for looting. Last night they had no significant numbers on fifth avenue (aside from protecting the Trump building) or at Macys.

I would usually be the last person to buy into conspiracy theories but at times nationwide the police force have been so incompetent that you could nearly think they were failing on purpose.

I don't see how filling the streets with army will do, unless the plan is to do it long term. Communities have to want to be policed and Trump and police forces are making that nearly impossible with their approaches

reece289

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

No nothing. He is hated too much. Nobody cares what he says. He actually made it worse.
The protest was about the murder. Then rioters and thugs who are more interested in stealing, arson and attacking the police joined in.
You won't talk them down. Government needs to retake the streets

Government doesn't own the streets. The people of America do. The Police are their to protect and serve. They have failed to protect and people have taken to the their streets to condemn the polices actions.

Now the police cannot protect and serve against looters ect. They need to take a step back. Stop attacking those they swore to protect and serve.

Professor Moriarty

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

No nothing. He is hated too much. Nobody cares what he says. He actually made it worse.
The protest was about the murder. Then rioters and thugs who are more interested in stealing, arson and attacking the police joined in.
You won't talk them down. Government needs to retake the streets

You're missing the point. A lot of people care about what he says. He's set himself up as a strongman, i.e. as the poster boy for "Government". So his useful idiots will whoop and holler as "Government" batters black people off the streets re-establishes law and order. Deflection from coronavirus and the economy while demonising minorities. And so, The Donald is making whitey feel safe again.

BonnieSituation

Harry Palmr wrote: »

He's not that good! Nixon is still worse

He was not.

Nixon brought China in from the cold and created the EPA.

See Nixon's grace on his defeat by Kennedy.

He was playing a different sport to Trump.

8-10

duploelabs wrote: »

Can think of 44 US presidents who'd do this. Unfortunately, even though he's had multiple oppourtunity to do this, Trump has not

In fairness there's only actually been 44 different people to serve as president, including Trump

Grover Cleveland served non consecutive terms and so was the 22nd and 24th president.

RIGOLO

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

You're missing the point. A lot of people care about what he says. He's set himself up as a strongman, i.e. as the poster boy for "Government". So his useful idiots will whoop and holler as "Government" batters black people off the streets re-establishes law and order. Deflection from coronavirus and the economy while demonising minorities. And so, The Donald is making whitey feel safe again.

The left spent the last 3 years deflecting from the economic succes story that was the US economy under the TRump administration.
Most leftist commentators nearly choked having to announce the booming tock market, booming job creation, booming business growth and never was any of this success ascribed to Trumps policies.
Suddenly because a global pandemic has decimated economys all over the world, the left want to be taken seriously as econmic analysts because they can point to the resultant major job losses in the US. I think not.

By the way the term useful idiots is generally ascribed to socialist left wing acolytes who are controlled by their totalitarian betters. Your conflating your political history using that reference for TRump supporters or have you not studied Lenin and his communist manifesto.

Foxtrol

BonnieSituation wrote: »

He was not.

Nixon brought China in from the cold and created the EPA.

See Nixon's grace on his defeat by Kennedy.

He was playing a different sport to Trump.

On Nixon, aside from his actual achievements, when he went full law and order he was also the challenger.

I don't get why people believe that this situation is similar to that and that this somehow helps Trump.

'Votef or me - I've messed things up so much that we now have to have the army on the streets'. Do people feel safer in that situation than they did 4 years ago?

Foxtrol

RIGOLO wrote: »

The left spent the last 3 years deflecting from the economic succes story that was the US economy under the TRump administration.
Most leftist commentators nearly choked having to announce the booming tock market, booming job creation, booming business growth and never was any of this success ascribed to Trumps policies.
Suddenly because a global pandemic has decimated economys all over the world, the left want to be taken seriously as econmic analysts because they can point to the resultant major job losses in the US. I think not.

By the way the term useful idiots is generally ascribed to socialist left wing acolytes who are controlled by their totalitarian betters. Your conflating your political history using that reference for TRump supporters or have you not studied Lenin and his communist manifesto.

Trump inherited the 'booming' economy, by nearly every metric the economy slowed down in Trump's first 3 years when compared to Obama's last 3.

Don't let facts get in the way of talking points though

Professor Moriarty

RIGOLO wrote: »

The left spent the last 3 years deflecting from the economic succes story that was the US economy under the TRump administration.

Define "left".

Most leftist commentators nearly choked having to announce the booming tock market, booming job creation, booming business growth and never was any of this success ascribed to Trumps policies.

Define "leftist"

Suddenly because a global pandemic has decimated economys all over the world, the left want to be taken seriously as econmic analysts because they can point to the resultant major job losses in the US. I think not.

Define "left".

By the way the term useful idiots is generally ascribed to socialist left wing acolytes who are controlled by their totalitarian betters. Your conflating your political history using that reference for TRump supporters or have you not studied Lenin and his communist manifesto.

The term is used widely today. So they are useful idiots. But if you don't like that term, let's call them useful foils. Or pawns. Or puppets. Whatever you like but we can agree they are stupid people who are easily manipulated by Trump.

Leroy42

Booming econmy? Do you recall what he promised when he gave away the biggest corporate tax cut in history?

Trump said it would be 5% or maybe even 6%. So even by his own standards he failed to deliver on the economy.

Its has nothing to do with economic analysts. 40+m people are unemployed. He delayed payments to millions because he wanted to get his name on the cheque.

He is trying to force open the economy, purely on the basis that in the short term it is better for him without any regard for the health of the nation.

And now he wants to label all protestors as Antifa, or democrats or liberals. When it is white people doing violence and Nazi signs it is all about good people on both sides, but now of course that is out the window and he wants to look tough. Hence the, tightly controlled and clean the streets of people walk yesterday. KJU would be proud.

People protesting, just tear gas them because the POTUS needs to walk around to make himself look tough.

Chips Lovell

Chips Lovell wrote: »

Mod Note

It's that time again where we remind you all to read the forum charter. Name calling, one-liners, posts simploy consisting of tweets, memes or YouTube videos aren't permitted.

If you post doesn't consist of at least one paragraph of your own contribution to this discussion, think twice before hitting "Reply"

Another gentle reminder.

Quin_Dub

Foxtrol wrote: »

Trump inherited the 'booming' economy, by nearly every metric the economy slowed down in Trump's first 3 years when compared to Obama's last 3.

Don't let facts get in the way of talking points though

Trumps claims on the "Economy" is a bit like his claims around Covid testing.

In absolute terms some of his figures are the highest but when actually compared using reasonable statistical analysis the real data shows that "His Economy" was fairly mediocre when compared to almost all of his modern predecessors.

In terms of % Growth he's added less jobs (Pre-Virus)than any President in the last 40 years (except GWB).

Stock Market growth - Slower than 3 out of the last 4 Presidents.

Tell me how

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

I don't think the groups stand separate to each other so the police can just walk in and pick them out.

You really should watch some of the videos of the riot.

Your last paragraph is more divisive rubbish that the world doesn't need.

I am not your enemy nor am I a supporter of trump but some of you are in cloud cuckoo land if you don't think that riots on a national scale can be brought under control without force. Insanity.

And before you kick off. Force does not mean shooting people dead on the streets

Come on man, there are as many videos showing excessive force as there is showing illegal rioting/looting.

This is not a simple case of all on one side are behaving admirably and all on the other are not, but Trump is advocating for that aggression and violence at a time when if he had being understanding of the grievances of the protesters, it would have helped calm the situation.

Edited to add: Not to mention the blatant lies of saying that he stands with peaceful protestors while using tear gas on them outside the white-house and calling Kaepernick a son of a b*tch.