Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VII (threadbanned users listed in OP)

moon2

abff wrote: »

But I guess your argument is that it should be one rule for Trump and a different rule for everyone else?

You guessed incorrectly. I was merely pointing out that the framing of this particular clip is a lie. There's nothing further to read into it.

On a personal level it's shocking that this type of misleading clip is actually pretty much par for the course these days. It's been normalised by the right/alt-right/far-right for such a long time but its still a surprise to see it from the other side.

timsey tiger

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

The British used to say exactly the same about De Valera when he got power with FF and Ireland was neutral in WWII 1932-1948. I remember seeing a clip where the narrator on a British newsreel called him virtually a dictator.

But it turned out he did OK. The overblown hysteria is laughable on this thread.

I think DeValera himself might have replied: com hoc ergo proctor hoc.

abff

moon2 wrote: »

You guessed incorrectly. I was merely pointing out that the framing of this particular clip is a lie. There's nothing further to read into it.

On a personal level it's shocking that this type of misleading clip is actually pretty much par for the course these days. It's been normalised by the right/alt-right/far-right for such a long time but its still a surprise to see it from the other side.

OK, fair enough.

But are you surprised that the Democrats are now considering fighting fire with fire? They tried playing fair last time around and look where that got them.

TomOnBoard

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You would think it was Trump himself that knelt on George Floyd's neck, the way some are going on.

Yeah, everyone knows that the physical Trump wasn't actually in Minneapolis that day.

But the rhetorical Trump was right there, leaning in on George Floyd as he died! The 'inspirational' Trump that has inspired hard-line policing for decades was there. His Hang 'em High advert in relation to the Central Park 5; his “Please don’t be too nice” to Long Island police in 2017; his "Like when you guys put someone in the car and you’re protecting their head [with your hand]? … I said, ‘You can take the hand away, okay?’” on the same day.. And that's just the tip of this thuggish President's iceberg of cowardly racism and 'Bull Connors' policing mindset.

So, yes you're right, Trump wasn't there physically. But he is always there every time a white police officer believes that he will get away with atrocities while hiding behind a badge, because the President nods and winks that it's OK. And, of course he now has his Chief Stormtrooper Bully Bill Barr with his own private army patrolling the streets of DC and other places, while wearing no insignia to denote the authority under which they are acting, with no accountability or obvious chain of command! This is yet another knee on the neck of those protesting the murder of George Floyd, the one now being applied with the full morbidly obese weight of Trump behind it, just days after he used chemical and ballistic weapons against entirely peaceful protesters who were exercising their right to protest under the US Constitution.


Have a read, and get back to us:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/chauvin-did-what-trump-asked-him-do/612574/

aloyisious

Watching & listening to Al Sharpton at George Floyd's funeral service, August in Washington may be hot for the politicians there as he's talking about revisiting the 1967 march on it this time looking for a check on existing police powers and background checks on individual Police Officers to see what pattern they follow where it come to dealing with people of colour and to hold those who support racist police officers misuse of police powers to account. He's targetting Bill Barr in his speech without having to mention his name. With Trump being Barr's boss, there's a direct carry-over message for him as well in Sharpton's comments. Trump's been trying to park it at the desk of a "they" person but it won't wash anymore.

One thing about the camera footage which broke the story and the eruption of anger about the murder of George Floyd, and the showing of footage from street-security cameras of the 4 sacked cops positioned over George's body, when the footage of their own personal body-cameras [incl audio feed] is put on display there may be no doubt that the suppression of George's breathing capability by them was known to all 4 of them which they chose to ignore. That makes their actions short-order premeditation and will cause further eruption of public anger against anyone who tries to deny the cause and results of the sacked officers misuse of city, state and national authorised police powers.

It was a funny and sad display of how far Trump has allowed things to proceed under his stewardship that yesterday military lorries similar in shape, size and colour to the ones used to convoy-in the MP's days ago were placed across the road between St John's church and the White House to block off camera footage of the W/H from the church area where the protestors had been moved to further away from the W/H. I decline to follow the suggestion of the media that the trucks were used so Trump wouldn't be able to see the protestors parked down the road, unless it was for reasons of his health. If it was true, I could see why Trump would want to use the Insurrection Act as he might feel under siege in the White House.

ancapailldorcha

Debate using words not pics please. Posts deleted.

Carfacemandog

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

But it turned out he did OK. The overblown hysteria is laughable on this thread.

It seems quite telling that you have avoided answering if you think Trumps ex secretary of defense, who Trump himself appointed, was being 'hysterical' when he compared Trump to Hitler yesterday.

Maybe you just missed it though, so I'll ask again if you think he was.

gormdubhgorm

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Yeah, everyone knows that the physical Trump wasn't actually in Minneapolis that day.

But the rhetorical Trump was right there, leaning in on George Floyd as he died! The 'inspirational' Trump that has inspired hard-line policing for decades was there. His Hang 'em High advert in relation to the Central Park 5; his “Please don’t be too nice” to Long Island police in 2017; his "Like when you guys put someone in the car and you’re protecting their head [with your hand]? … I said, ‘You can take the hand away, okay?’” on the same day.. And that's just the tip of this thuggish President's iceberg of cowardly racism and 'Bull Connors' policing mindset.

So, yes you're right, Trump wasn't there physically. But he is always there every time a white police officer believes that he will get away with atrocities while hiding behind a badge, because the President nods and winks that it's OK. And, of course he now has his Chief Stormtrooper Bully Bill Barr with his own private army patrolling the streets of DC and other places, while wearing no insignia to denote the authority under which they are acting, with no accountability or obvious chain of command! This is yet another knee on the neck of those protesting the murder of George Floyd, the one now being applied with the full morbidly obese weight of Trump behind it, just days after he used chemical and ballistic weapons against entirely peaceful protesters who were exercising their right to protest under the US Constitution.


Have a read, and get back to us:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/chauvin-did-what-trump-asked-him-do/612574/

Well I have not read it yet but before I read any article I look up the author. Which puts any article in context.

Adam Serwer has won awards from the National Association of Black Journalists.

A cursory look at his other articles in the Atlantic are titled.

'Why Republican's Aren't turning on Trump' (Sept 2019)

'The Mad King’s Enablers' (about Trump Oct 2019)

'Only the right can defeat white Nationalism' (Aug 2019)

'Conservatives have a white nationalist problem' (about Trump Aug 2019)

'The Coronavirus Was an Emergency Until Trump Found Out Who Was Dying' (May 2020)

He also has written essay's on "The Nationalist's Delusion" and "White Nationalism's Deep American Roots" and "The Cruelty Is the Point"
His mother is the Chief Curator of the Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of African American History and Culture.

So now I am ready to read the article.

gormdubhgorm

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Yeah, everyone knows that the physical Trump wasn't actually in Minneapolis that day.

But the rhetorical Trump was right there, leaning in on George Floyd as he died! The 'inspirational' Trump that has inspired hard-line policing for decades was there. His Hang 'em High advert in relation to the Central Park 5; his “Please don’t be too nice” to Long Island police in 2017; his "Like when you guys put someone in the car and you’re protecting their head [with your hand]? … I said, ‘You can take the hand away, okay?’” on the same day.. And that's just the tip of this thuggish President's iceberg of cowardly racism and 'Bull Connors' policing mindset.

So, yes you're right, Trump wasn't there physically. But he is always there every time a white police officer believes that he will get away with atrocities while hiding behind a badge, because the President nods and winks that it's OK. And, of course he now has his Chief Stormtrooper Bully Bill Barr with his own private army patrolling the streets of DC and other places, while wearing no insignia to denote the authority under which they are acting, with no accountability or obvious chain of command! This is yet another knee on the neck of those protesting the murder of George Floyd, the one now being applied with the full morbidly obese weight of Trump behind it, just days after he used chemical and ballistic weapons against entirely peaceful protesters who were exercising their right to protest under the US Constitution.


Have a read, and get back to us:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/chauvin-did-what-trump-asked-him-do/612574/

In the article Server's choice of language is interesting.

" Law and order, for this president, simply means that he and his ideological allies are above the law, while others, such as Floyd, are merely subject to it."


This ignores the fact that Police Officer Derek Chauvin has been charged with murder and is due to appear in court on June 8.

The author says the following

'police exist to protect white people from black people.'

Not true in the following video a white racist woman was killed by a black police officer.

https://nypost.com/video/scissors-wielding-racist-killed-by-black-police-officer/

But over all the article you have linked is well written if a bit biased. And shows a massive chip on Serwer's shoulder.

timsey tiger

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Well I have not read it yet but before I read any article I look up the author. Which puts any article in context.

Adam Serwer has won awards from the National Association of Black Journalists.

A cursory look at his other articles in the Atlantic are titled.

'Why Republican's Aren't turning on Trump' (Sept 2019)

'The Mad King’s Enablers' (about Trump Oct 2019)

'Only the right can defeat white Nationalism' (Aug 2019)

'Conservatives have a white nationalist problem' (about Trump Aug 2019)

'The Coronavirus Was an Emergency Until Trump Found Out Who Was Dying' (May 2020)

He also has written essay's on "The Nationalist's Delusion" and "White Nationalism's Deep American Roots" and "The Cruelty Is the Point"
His mother is the Chief Curator of the Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of African American History and Culture.

So now I am ready to read the article.

So your prejudged the ideas based on the history of the person delivering it and inexplicably are telling everybody that, thats what you normally do. I hope you never end up on a jury.

Foxtrol

Even the ghost of Reagan is taking shots at Trump now

https://twitter.com/MeidasTouch/status/1268593181760688129?s=20

Headshot

Trump turning the White House into Fort Knox, unbelievable all the barriers going up just to protect from peaceful protests

listermint

Headshot wrote: »

Trump turning the White House into Fort Knox, unbelievable all the barriers going up just to protect from peaceful protests

It's absolutely excellent. A huge endictment of where the us is now.

He's gone in Nov.

gormdubhgorm

Carfacemandog wrote: »

It seems quite telling that you have avoided answering if you think Trumps ex secretary of defense, who Trump himself appointed, was being 'hysterical' when he compared Trump to Hitler yesterday.

Maybe you just missed it though, so I'll ask again if you think he was.

Ok he is an Ex Secretary of Defense

And it is important to consider he was involved in both in Iraq and Afganistan.
He was quoted as saying in Afganistan:

"be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet"

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2010/07/16-most-hair-raising-general-mattis-quotes/340553/

This is the same fella who bombed a wedding party in Iraq in 2004 resulting deaths of 42 civilians, including 11 women and 14 children.

His comments after proof was shown what he and his men did?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/may/21/iraq.rorymccarthy

"I have not seen the pictures but bad things happen in wars. I don't have to apologise for the conduct of my men."


--

As for Mattis' comments about comparing Trump's protest response to Nazi tactics.
I think there are two reasons for this.

1) He his hurt over being fired by Trump

2) He may see an opportunity of running for political office again when Trump's tenure comes to an end. Maybe even do a Dwight Eisenhower?

gormdubhgorm

timsey tiger wrote: »

So your prejudged the ideas based on the history of the person delivering it and inexplicably are telling everybody that, thats what you normally do. I hope you never end up on a jury.

https://libguides.colostate.edu/howtodo/evaluatejournals

The author clearly has biases. When evaluating any article it is important to look at the background of the author and thier qualifications and so on. Who is the author's audience and so on. It can hardly be described as objective.

moon2

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

" Law and order, for this president, simply means that he and his ideological allies are above the law, while others, such as Floyd, are merely subject to it."


This ignores the fact that Police Officer Derek Chauvin has been charged with murder and is due to appear in court on June 8.

These aren't mutually exclusive. Trumps idea of law and order can be exactly as described, and that doesn't preclude Chauvin from being charged with murder.

Chauvin could be found innocent or guilty and that still wouldn't impact Trump's beliefs. Trumps actions and words since the murder of Floyd are objectively a far cry from law abiding, or even constitution abiding.

Hurrache

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

1) He his hurt over being fired by Trump

2) He may see an opportunity of running for political office again when Trump's tenure comes to an end. Maybe even do a Dwight Eisenhower?

1. He wasn't fired.
2. He wasn't a politician.

gormdubhgorm

moon2 wrote: »

These aren't mutually exclusive. Trumps idea of law and order can be exactly as described, and that doesn't preclude Chauvin from being charged with murder.

Chauvin could be found innocent or guilty and that still wouldn't impact Trump's beliefs. Trumps actions and words since the murder of Floyd are objectively a far cry from law abiding, or even constitution abiding.

It directly contradicts the author (Server) comments though. I suspect he would be privately pleased if Chauvin got away with murder as it would enable him to continue the 'poor me' narrative about African-American's.

If you look at what Trump has done he has just gone in hard, in response to the riots.

In 2015 when Obama was President a state of emergency was called in Baltimore in 2015. Plus the troops were called in.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/29/us/politics/events-in-baltimore-reflect-a-slow-rolling-crisis-across-us-obama-says.html

In 2014 there was another race riot in Missouri, In 2001 there was one in Cincinnati.

https://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/25/politics/obama-holder-ferguson/index.html

And of course there was the race riots in 1992 LA

gormdubhgorm

Hurrache wrote: »

1. He wasn't fired.
2. He wasn't a politician.

1) As good as fired he resigned first and now Trump claims he had the honour of firing Mattis

2) If Mattis served as Secretary of defense he will always be known as a solider/politician.

Hurrache

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

1) As good as fired he resigned first and now Trump claims he had the honour of firing Mattis

2) If Mattis served as Secretary of defense he will always be known as a solider/politician.

Facts are
1. He wasn't fired. How can you even claim he was as good as fired when when you say he resigned first.
2. He wasn't a politician. He isn't now, nor always will, be known as a politician by anyone other than those that are mistaken.

timsey tiger

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Ok he is an Ex Secretary of Defense

And it is important to consider he was involved in both in Iraq and Afganistan.
He was quoted as saying in Afganistan:

"be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet"

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2010/07/16-most-hair-raising-general-mattis-quotes/340553/

This is the same fella who bombed a wedding party in Iraq in 2004 resulting deaths of 42 civilians, including 11 women and 14 children.

His comments after proof was shown what he and his men did?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/may/21/iraq.rorymccarthy

"I have not seen the pictures but bad things happen in wars. I don't have to apologise for the conduct of my men."

Just what anybody would expect form ones military and the reason Trump hired him for the job.

It still amazes me that military types who admire this, who have been in actual combat, who have killed people, are so easily upset, by a guy kneeling before the flag.

Overheal

Headshot wrote: »

Trump turning the White House into Fort Knox, unbelievable all the barriers going up just to protect from peaceful protests

He's finally built that wall.

moon2

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It directly contradicts the author (Server) comments though

How so? I didn't get this impression from my reading so I'd like to know how you've linked these. I don't see how Trump's beliefs and the charges brought against Chauvin are linked.

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I suspect he would be privately pleased if Chauvin got away with murder as it would enable him to continue the 'poor me' narrative about African-American's.

If you look at similar historical cases, police essentially have carte blanche when it comes to killing 'suspects'. They're rarely indicted, and even when they are the cases rarely result in conviction.


At the risk of understatement of the year, your use of 'poor me narrative' is dismissive and implies you do not believe there has been misconduct now or in the past. To diminish the reality of police officers murdering black Americans and facing no charges is awful. If you want to talk about biases, then analyse yours.

EDIT:

The author says the following

'police exist to protect white people from black people.'

Not true in the following video a white racist woman was killed by a black police officer.

This is the equivalent of saying "There's no such thing as deforestation because I can see a few dozen trees". The author of the article looked at a multitude of events and called out a pattern. You found a singular event and are using it to disprove the existence of this pattern. It just doesn't make sense.

In addition to that, the example you use is incomparable. Are you honestly trying to say that case is the same as when a white police officer knowingly suffocates a compliant, non-resisting, non-threatening person over the course of about 10 minutes. This is while they passed out after repeatedly saying they couldn't breath?

I mean, in your case the person was actually threatening the police officer and made very threatening moves while holding an item which has the potential to kill somone...

Carfacemandog

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Ok he is an Ex Secretary of Defense

And it is important to consider he was involved in both in Iraq and Afganistan.
He was quoted as saying in Afganistan:

"be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet"[
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2010/07/16-most-hair-raising-general-mattis-quotes/340553/

This is the same fella who bombed a wedding party in Iraq in 2004 resulting deaths of 42 civilians, including 11 women and 14 children.

His comments after proof was shown what he and his men did?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/may/21/iraq.rorymccarthy

"I have not seen the pictures but bad things happen in wars. I don't have to apologise for the conduct of my men."


--

As for Mattis' comments about comparing Trump's protest response to Nazi tactics.
I think there are two reasons for this.

1) He his hurt over being fired by Trump

2) He may see an opportunity of running for political office again when Trump's tenure comes to an end. Maybe even do a Dwight Eisenhower?

And yet despite all you have listed above, this guy still considers Trump as comparable to Hitler. If that doesn't tell you something about Trump it's simply because you don't want to hear it.

You also can't claim any moral highgroudn Trump may have on the back of his policies, and the increased killings and droen strikes across the middle East under his presidency - just in case that was lingering in your mind.

I have not seen any inclination towards him running in politics, and the fact that you jumped immediately on a claim if him being upset about something that never even happened (he was not fired but resigned) shows that same tendency I was talking about earlier about Trump defenders peculiar need to constantly ignore the facts when they do not suit.

The more likely reason he compared Trumps tactics to Hitler's nazi ones s because he is well known to be very strongly versed in modern history, and because the similarities between Trump and Hitler in this regard are stark, and have grown more and more so over his presidency.

gormdubhgorm

Hurrache wrote: »

Facts are
1. He wasn't fired. How can you even claim he was as good as fired when when you say he resigned first.

This is what Trump claims

https://nypost.com/2020/06/03/trump-says-he-had-the-honor-of-firing-james-mattis/

Sounds to me like Mattis jumped before he was pushed.

2. He wasn't a politician. He isn't now, nor always will, be known as a politician by anyone other than those that are mistaken.

So the 26th secretary of defense is known as defence minister in other jurisdictions.
Who was the the 26th secretary of defense? Mattis.

It is the equivalent of Richard Mulcahy a former Army General becoming minister of Defence in the Irish Free State.
Ergo he went from a military man to politician.

I don't know what is so difficult to understand about that.

gormdubhgorm

Carfacemandog wrote: »

And yet despite all you have listed above, this guy still considers Trump as comparable to Hitler. If that doesn't tell you something about Trump it's simply because you don't want to hear it.

First off Mattis did not compare Trump to Hitler he said he was using Nazi 'tactics'.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/he-tries-divide-us-former-defense-secretary-mattis-compares-trump-n1224171

Nowhere was there a mention of Hitler. Subtle difference, but an important one.
It appears that you do not want to hear it. But I will repeat again. It is clear Mattis likely has a vendetta against Trump since he was forced to resign/jump before he was pushed.
Secondly Mattis is clearly angling for political position after Trump leaves office. By saying the above Nazi remarks it puts him in pole position. Even though it is hyppocrtical given Mattis past comments such as 'horrible things happen in war' and he would not take responsibility for killing women and children and feels he has nothing to apologise for.

You also can't claim any moral highgroudn Trump may have on the back of his policies, and the increased killings and droen strikes across the middle East under his presidency - just in case that was lingering in your mind.

What American can claim the moral high ground?
JFK and Bill Clinton - were womanisers. War in viettnam. Drone Strikes afganstan
Nixon was a mischievous liar and a warmonger.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

George Bush war in Iraq under false pretenses - WMD etc.
George W Bush war in Afghanistan

Maybe Jimmy Carter?

I have not seen any inclination towards him running in politics, and the fact that you jumped immediately on a claim if him being upset about something that never even happened (he was not fired but resigned) shows that same tendency I was talking about earlier about Trump defenders peculiar need to constantly ignore the facts when they do not suit.

I have already explained this above. And as I said I have no vote one way or the other. I am not America. Just a realist.

The more likely reason he compared Trumps tactics to Hitler's nazi ones s because he is well known to be very strongly versed in modern history, and because the similarities between Trump and Hitler in this regard are stark, and have grown more and more so over his presidency.

How are they stark?
It is not a military dictatorship. There has been no enabling act. It is just a statement to ironically 'fan the flames.' To compare Trump to Hitler is laughable in the extreme. And takes away any persons credibility who says it. It might play well with the anti-Trump base though that is about it.

BonnieSituation

Anyway, the Narcissist-in-Chief is slowly deteriorating:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1268688014630322177?s=19

---

Didn't Murkowski get Primaried by McConnell and still won easily?

I'd love her to come out for Biden to really rub it in.

gormdubhgorm

moon2 wrote: »

How so? I didn't get this impression from my reading so I'd like to know how you've linked these. I don't see how Trump's beliefs and the charges brought against Chauvin are linked.

If its explained. The author views all the police as the enemy of Black America.
That is the narrative. Saying that the law is never used against the police when they commit crimes only against black Americans. Patently not true.

If you look at similar historical cases, police essentially have carte blanche when it comes to killing 'suspects'. They're rarely indicted, and even when they are the cases rarely result in conviction.

The police officer ]in question was arrested and he will be charged on June 8th

At the risk of understatement of the year, your use of 'poor me narrative' is dismissive and implies you do not believe there has been misconduct now or in the past. To diminish the reality of police officers murdering black Americans and facing no charges is awful. If you want to talk about biases, then analyse yours.

To clarify I never said there was never misconduct in the past. My point is it suits Adam Serwer to agitate and stir up resentment. That is what his opinion pieces are designed to do. I suspect he is only delighted with these recent race riots as he has a clear vendetta against Trump and wants 'his people' to rise up. It is insidious and disingenuous. The Atlantic even managed to tie in covid19 to the narrative.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/05/we-dont-know-whats-behind-covid-19-racial-disparity/612106/

In addition to that, the example you use is incomparable. Are you honestly trying to say that case is the same as when a white police officer knowingly suffocates a compliant, non-resisting, non-threatening person over the course of about 10 minutes. This is while they passed out after repeatedly saying they couldn't breath?

I mean, in your case the person was actually threatening the police officer and made very threatening moves while holding an item which has the potential to kill somone...

My point is that Adam Server is insulting black police officers, by implying that all police are enemies of the African American community. Also insulting decent police officers of all other races. There is a clear agenda there in his constant opinion piece output.

Cody montana

listermint wrote: »

It's absolutely excellent. A huge endictment of where the us is now.

He's gone in Nov.

Mr Biden, tear down that wall.

Cookie_Monster

Headshot wrote: »

Trump turning the White House into Fort Knox, unbelievable all the barriers going up just to protect from peaceful protests

its been going on for a while. I was in DC in January, the back of the house then had 4 layers of fencing and the front fence was being replaced by one about 1.5m or so taller than the existing one. The road out the front has also been closed of and barriered as a result of those works so effectively 3 fences out front now as well.