Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VII (threadbanned users listed in OP)

pixelburp

To quote the Americans themselves: "Shít, or get off the pot".

It's all well and good admiring Trump the Outsider, the anti-intellectual response to careerist politicians. I can understand the emotional seduction of that proposition. Trump promised to Drain the Swamp, clear the decks of dead wood and "get things done". Post 2008 there has been a lot of simmering resentment for the political class. It's there, even here you see it with the veneration of the likes of Michael O'Leary or Peter Casey, that they'll come along and clean house.

But Trump hasn't. He's not the outsider anymore, he has had 3 years to prove he could make a difference. Instead, he has shown himself singularly incapable of handling either Big Political Ideas (repeal healthcare, build the wall), or handle National Crisises (Hurricane Maria, CoVid and now the racial tensions). While peppered throughout has been a near endless string of outrageous comments and actions - culminating in ordering the tear-gassing of peaceful protestors for a bizarre photo-op with a bible.

Caveat Emptor. Here comes the big, loud boastful businessman to put shape on America. Oh wait, no. He's a spoofer.

cb890

pixelburp wrote: »

To quote the Americans themselves: "Shít, or get off the pot".

It's all well and good admiring Trump the Outsider, the anti-intellectual response to careerist politicians. I can understand the emotional seduction of that proposition. Trump promised to Drain the Swamp, clear the decks of dead wood and "get things done". Post 2008 there has been a lot of simmering resentment for the political class. It's there, even here you see it with the veneration of the likes of Michael O'Leary or Peter Casey, that they'll come along and clean house.

But Trump hasn't. He's not the outsider anymore, he has had 3 years to prove he could make a difference. Instead, he has shown himself singularly incapable of handling either Big Political Ideas (repeal healthcare, build the wall), or handle National Crisises (Hurricane Maria, CoVid and now the racial tensions). While peppered throughout has been a near endless string of outrageous comments and actions - culminating in ordering the tear-gassing of peaceful protestors for a bizarre photo-op with a bible.

Caveat Emptor. Here comes the big, loud boastful businessman to put shape on America. Oh wait, no. He's a spoofer.

TBH, I've a tonne of time for the idea of someone from outside the political class coming along to shake things up... However, that person isn't and quite clearly never was Trump. You could clearly see, from both his history and the 'campaign' he ran that he didn't really have any ideas, outside of soundbites and an ability to compete against what was actually a very poor candidate.

I'd have been more than happy to see someone like Bill Gates, or Elon Musk (not someone I totally respect, mind you, but at least he's semi-coherent and has an ability to get things done) enter the fray. But seriously, Donald Trump just never had the talent/intellect/drive that is required here. And, being objective, I think that was pretty clear in 2015/2016 when he was running and was exactly the same abrasive, anti-intellectual that he has since shown himself to be. The American people should have had a pretty clear idea what they were getting then (if they'd even given 10 minutes to researching his history/character) and if they don't, they certainly do now...

pixelburp

cb890 wrote: »

TBH, I've a tonne of time for the idea of someone from outside the political class coming along to shake things up... However, that person isn't and quite clearly never was Trump. You could clearly see, from both his history and the 'campaign' he ran that he didn't really have any ideas, outside of soundbites and an ability to compete against what was actually a very poor candidate.

I'd have been more than happy to see someone like Bill Gates, or Elon Musk (not someone I totally respect, mind you, but at least he's semi-coherent and has an ability to get things done) enter the fray. But seriously, Donald Trump just never had the talent/intellect/drive that is required here. And, being objective, I think that was pretty clear in 2015/2016 when he was running and was exactly the same abrasive, anti-intellectual that he has since shown himself to be. The American people should have had a pretty clear idea what they were getting then (if they'd even given 10 minutes to researching his history/character) and if they don't, they certainly do now...

This is getting a little off topic, but I don't know; I get the desire to try something new & "punish" the political class. Especially given how they can be the stewards to economic catastrophe like with 2008 but still maintain a career. But experiments with (say) business people have IMO tended towards disaster (open to correction here)

Of all the strata of industries and trades, politics isn't "professional" as such. I'd never let a GP do my taxes, yet a GP runs our country. But that's not to say every other trade makes a good fit either. Basically, entrepreneurial businesspeople shouldn't be politicians: because while there might seem to be an overlap of interests, ultimately politics is meant to serve the people, whereas Business needs to serve the bottom line - or shareholders.

In my mind, even ostensibly humane folk like Bill Gates would soon struggle to square off the inherent waste & necessary contradictions that "running a country" brings. Especially social democracies, that put more emphasis on safety nets, welfare and other outlays more right-leaning folk chaff at. What a business might abandon as a demographic not worth investment, a socialised country needs to protect and support. Right there comes the ideological conflict.

Of course, like you said, Trump is not a good businessman to begin with - so his suitability for any position of power becomes irrelevant. As I love reminding, this is a man who couldn't make money from a casino in a casino city. I don't think it'll come as any surprise that if and when his tax returns are revealed, we discover he's not half as wealthy as he makes out.

Ande1975

Apologies in advance if this isn't allowed here but look up and follow Sarah Kendzior. Her book 'Hiding in Plain Sight: The invention of Donald Trump and the Erosion of America' is probably the most terrifying book I have read about the rise and reign of the First Trump (if he wins 2020, he will install Ivanka).

There were many, many WT-actual-F reactions. Even if you don't read it but want to make some sense of what's happening, follow her on twitter or listen to the Podcast, Gaslit Nation.

pixelburp

Roger the cabin boy wrote: »

[...]
As for actual policies of Trump?
Dunno, its a look and learn thing tbh. I liked his treatment of the WHO. Most apt. I thought the handling of Kim-Jung was fantastic and showed "Real" politicians how to deal with tin-pot tyrants.
[...]

Apparently handling amounts to two years of nothing. Whatever Trump did, it hasn't stuck:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/11/north-korea-says-us-meddling-in-inter-korean-affairs-could-affect-election.html

North Korea suspended communication hotlines with its neighbour on Tuesday; the milquetoast response from Washington was that it was "disappointed"

After a series of historic summits in 2018 and 2019 between Trump and North Korean leader Kim Jong Un, little progress has been made in dismantling the North’s nuclear weapons program, and Pyongyang has expressed increasing frustration with Washington’s refusal to ease sanctions.

So, no progress at all. North Korea still has its nuclear program, while showing no desire to yield to demands, or display detente between the two Koreas. Trump's visit to NK was a photo-op, same as the other week when he had protestors tear-gassed. A charade to make himself look big & "in charge". And while China remains a staunch ally of NK, why would the latter ever yield anyway?

The reality being that nothing of note has occurred in the two years since the meeting. You decry the slick emptiness of traditional politicians. Genuine question: can you recognise similarly vacuous, unhelpful gestures with Trump's actions? Notwithstanding CoVid and other internal concerns, North Korea hasn't been "handled" by any suggestible stretch. Coins were minted, hands shook, but the Good Friday Agreement, this is not.

cb890

pixelburp wrote: »

This is getting a little off topic, but I don't know; I get the desire to try something new & "punish" the political class. Especially given how they can be the stewards to economic catastrophe like with 2008 but still maintain a career. But experiments with (say) business people have IMO tended towards disaster (open to correction here)

This could easily continue to wander off topic, so I'll probably not discuss too much further after this post...

However, I struggle to think of too many actual examples of particularly successful businessmen turning their hands to politics (prob down to my ignorance! :-)). To me though, I don't overly see why it necessarily shouldn't be successful. Once you get your head around the idea that rather than out and out bottom line, your success should be driven by how effectively you provide services to people (as anyone with a Centrist bent should be able to do), then I really would have thought that successful business people should have a very good skill-set for delivery of said services.

I certainly would like to see someone like Bill Gates actually try it though. Someone who could cut through a lot of the waste and inertia of government would I think be refreshing. It may be a failure, but I don't think it would work out any worse than an Obama/Biden administration - provided the person wasn't a radical idiot. I don't think Trump is really an example of anything bar a complete waste of time/opportunity, so really I just write him off as a bit of an outlier to the discussion - hence why I probably should stop posting this point of view here!

valoren

I agree that there was an element of trying something different by invoking a willing 'successful' businessman to become President but as other's have mentioned, he's been a damp squib. Trump's legacy will be that he has changed US politics from policy driven to personality driven. The US as a state is all a front. We'd like to think that there are two major parties who intermittently trade holding power. The Presidency, control of Congress etc. Trump's presidency has helped expose that front. When power was held by opponents then they were opposed in a civil manner.

The career of Newt Gingrich changed politics in the US and Trump is the product of Gingrich's then campaign of making US politics deeply partisan. The GOP was too respectful, full of discourse, too reasonable, too much "dialogue". They were all too chummy regardless of their politics. While initially this transition involved dirty tricks, smear campaigns etc of Democrat opponents, it all culminated into the pathetically base, schoolyard insults we see today such as Sleepy Joe, Nervous Nancy etc. If you can't get them on their policies, then a catchy nickname will suffice.

The US as a country exists in two forms. There is the reality where it comes up short on too many fronts. Then there is the front, the false idea that the US is simply the greatest and most respected country in the world. Trump's tenure has helped expose the false narrative. In 2016, there were a lot of angry, disenfranchised Americans. They voted in Trump. Bizarrely, even though their "guy" holds office, their anger remains. There are still angry and disenfranchised people in 2020. There is this idea that their opponents are people who want to change the country. The liberals. They are posited as the enemy of the state. In their anti-intellectualism, they fail to see that their country has always been a liberal country, a country that is constantly changing. Change and growth is what made the country. The war of independence, the constitution, the emancipation proclamation, civil rights. All acts of liberty.

I like to think that the civil war never really ended in the US. There was never any singular political ideology. It simply went from the battlefields and moved into political ideology. The Trump presidency, in it's crassness, has helped shine a light on how divided America actually is. You have the liberal progressives, the kind who seek change in the country and the conservative regressives who yearn for the golden age of America which never actually existed. Trump is infallible because the latter group yearn for a quasi-authoritarian and deeply Christian state, with a strong man leader in control. A country where abortion is illegal and sexual preferences are legislated against even outlawed. A country where it's strength is defined by it's military might. A country where those in power decide who is and who isn't "American". Think white privilege, white supremacy with black people, immigrants, foreigners defined as useful but not truly "American". That's the concept of this "golden age", America when it was Great. Those attitudes still linger and in Trump such attitudes have been empowered. That's the lure of Trump. With his polling numbers indicating a loss in November, where does this leave the country? Biden will be predictable but would be a big and welcome step down from the chaos we see today. It won't be the back to normal we think it will be. He will certainly not resolve a deeply split country. Lincoln's famous quote that "A house divided against itself cannot stand" is playing itself out. Pretty much half of the US believes that the other half is their enemy, hell bent on oppressing them even when, ridiculously, their "guy", their imperfect vessel, is in the White House. It's a country perpetually at war with itself and it seems that it will continue no matter who wins the White House. The problem will be that Trump will have served as a dry run, a dress rehearsal until, in the years ahead, someone invokes his playbook but that someone will have the intellectual rigor to back it up and bring America back to it's "golden age".

aloyisious

There's not much one can say about Trump's period in power except that he's disappointed more people more often than a clutch of presidents together, attacked rather than worked with his own allies in the Senate in an equal way. As for the electorate who put him into office, the lack of collegiality he showed the other septuagenarian in his tweets showed exactly how much respect he has for the elderly and voters, even when he's going to need every one of them more than they need him.

kowloon

So this is a thing: poll from Trump's website.

It should be AN MS-13... Otherwise, it's flawless and impartial.

pixelburp

kowloon wrote: »

So this is a thing: poll from Trump's website.

It should be AN MS-13... Otherwise, it's flawless and impartial.

At the risk of flirting with one-liners: truly, satire is dead. I can see why Jon Stewart "retired" when he did.

aloyisious

kowloon wrote: »

So this is a thing: poll from Trump's website.

It should be AN MS-13... Otherwise, it's flawless and impartial.

A different "tailored" suit, not the usual ill-fitting blue suit with red tie and white shirt.

Muahahaha

kowloon wrote: »

So this is a thing: poll from Trump's website.

It should be AN MS-13... Otherwise, it's flawless and impartial.

Jesus thats gas, the options in his poll are-
A Lyin' Democract
A low IQ Democrat
A Radical Socialist Democrat
A Low Energy Democrat
A Sleazy Democrat
A High Tax Democrat
A Corrupt Democrat

Or you can have Trump who is none of the above :rolleyes:

Did I hear something about his campaign sending CNN a cease and desist letter because they published a poll showing him 11 percentage points behind Biden? Id say he is loosing the rag about that one, Trump is absolutely obsessed with numbers, be it TV ratings or polls.

aloyisious

Going on his usual behaviour when some-one does something which doesn't accord with his opinion and actions, I expect Trump to express upset in one way or another about the chairman of the J.C.S Gen Milley making a public apology about being in uniform whilst accompanying Trump through Lafayette Park as the occasion was not military-related and he now considers it was improper of him to have been in uniform at that time. Good one, General, it takes a lot to stand up in uniform and say "I apologize, I got it wrong".

Grab All Association

https://twitter.com/ljkbennett/status/1271039225211883520?s=21

Only a joke but gone viral

Water John

Muahahaha wrote: »

Jesus thats gas, the options in his poll are-
A Lyin' Democract
A low IQ Democrat
A Radical Socialist Democrat
A Low Energy Democrat
A Sleazy Democrat
A High Tax Democrat
A Corrupt Democrat

Or you can have Trump who is none of the above :rolleyes:

Did I hear something about his campaign sending CNN a cease and desist letter because they published a poll showing him 11 percentage points behind Biden? Id say he is loosing the rag about that one, Trump is absolutely obsessed with numbers, be it TV ratings or polls.

No that's incorrect. They did it because the CNN Poll showed him trailing Biden by 14 points.

Itssoeasy

aloyisious wrote: »

Going on his usual behaviour when some-one does something which doesn't accord with his opinion and actions, I expect Trump to express upset in one way or another about the chairman of the J.C.S Gen Milley making a public apology about being in uniform whilst accompanying Trump through Lafayette Park as the occasion was not military-related and he now considers it was improper of him to have been in uniform at that time. Good one, General, it takes a lot to stand up in uniform and say "I apologize, I got it wrong".

Well considering there were reports of trump being very close to firing the defence secretary for having the nerve to disagree with dear leader only for Mark Esper to walk back kind of what he said.

I fear the JCOS chairman may not be long for the position. He’s right that it was wrong. I’m under the impression that they wear what we see them wear at the state of the union(I think it’s called dress uniform) so why he needed to dress like he did baffles me.

Muahahaha

aloyisious wrote: »

Going on his usual behaviour when some-one does something which doesn't accord with his opinion and actions, I expect Trump to express upset in one way or another about the chairman of the J.C.S Gen Milley making a public apology about being in uniform whilst accompanying Trump through Lafayette Park as the occasion was not military-related and he now considers it was improper of him to have been in uniform at that time. Good one, General, it takes a lot to stand up in uniform and say "I apologize, I got it wrong".

I saw that apology by Gen Milley, he sounded like he had taken a kicking from other military generals for what he did. I wonder who are his bosses and what happened in the background for him to be apologising more than a week after the event.

Water John

It's actually the way Gen Milley dresses every day at work.

Itssoeasy

Water John wrote: »

It's actually the way Gen Milley dresses every day at work.

Oh okay it was just former White House people were on tv saying it was strange to see him in that way and for them(maybe it used to be different or it’s a choice) it wasn’t how it was.

Tell me how

Muahahaha wrote: »

Did I hear something about his campaign sending CNN a cease and desist letter because they published a poll showing him 11 percentage points behind Biden? Id say he is loosing the rag about that one, Trump is absolutely obsessed with numbers, be it TV ratings or polls.

Water John wrote: »

No that's incorrect. They did it because the CNN Poll showed him trailing Biden by 14 points.

Their response was pretty decent.

Last paragraph was written through clenched teeth I suspect.

https://twitter.com/CNNPR/status/1270802155201576962

Penn

To register to attend Trumps rally next week, you have to agree that if you catch Covid-19 at it, you wont sue Trump or the stadium.

duploelabs

Penn wrote: »

To register to attend Trumps rally next week, you have to agree that if you catch Covid-19 at it, you wont sue Trump or the stadium.

Seriously?!?

TomOnBoard

duploelabs wrote: »

Seriously?!?

Yep!

"By clicking register below, you are acknowledging that an inherent risk of exposure to COVID-19 exists in any public place where people are present. By attending the Rally, you and any guests voluntarily assume all risks related to exposure to COVID-19 and agree not to hold Donald J. Trump for President, Inc.; BOK Center; ASM Global; or any of their affiliates, directors, officers, employees, agents, contractors, or volunteers liable for any illness or injury."

kowloon

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Yep!

"By clicking register below, you are acknowledging that an inherent risk of exposure to COVID-19 exists in any public place where people are present. By attending the Rally, you and any guests voluntarily assume all risks related to exposure to COVID-19 and agree not to hold Donald J. Trump for President, Inc.; BOK Center; ASM Global; or any of their affiliates, directors, officers, employees, agents, contractors, or volunteers liable for any illness or injury."

Is this on the site to get tickets or something?

Overheal

kowloon wrote: »

So this is a thing: poll from Trump's website.

It should be AN MS-13... Otherwise, it's flawless and impartial.

He should be concerned that someone could, reasonably, answer B to each and every one of those questions.

Overheal

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Yep!

"By clicking register below, you are acknowledging that an inherent risk of exposure to COVID-19 exists in any public place where people are present. By attending the Rally, you and any guests voluntarily assume all risks related to exposure to COVID-19 and agree not to hold Donald J. Trump for President, Inc.; BOK Center; ASM Global; or any of their affiliates, directors, officers, employees, agents, contractors, or volunteers liable for any illness or injury."

“Or injury” is just hanging on there just in case this rally on Juneteenth at the gravesite of a race massacre gets, Uh, less than cordial.

TomOnBoard

kowloon wrote: »

Is this on the site to get tickets or something?

Yes. Apply for tickets and tick the box to accept the disclaimer.

sydthebeat

kowloon wrote: »

So this is a thing: poll from Trump's website.

It should be AN MS-13... Otherwise, it's flawless and impartial.

Sweet jesus that is beyond parody.

frag420

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Yes. Apply for tickets and tick the box to accept the disclaimer.

Perhaps we can all apply for tickets, tick that box and...not turn up!

Would love to see the look on his face when he sees a half empty hall...

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

He should be concerned that someone could, reasonably, answer B to each and every one of those questions.

It's funny that all the insults like lying, sleazy and corrupt describe him perfectly!