Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VII (threadbanned users listed in OP)

gormdubhgorm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I'm not going to quote all of that. But here is your very first sentence:

"Nowhere did I find Mattis use the term Nazi or Hitler."


Here is part of Mattis's statement:

"Instructions given by the military departments to our troops before the Normandy invasion reminded soldiers that “The Nazi slogan for destroying us…was ‘Divide and Conquer.’ Our American answer is ‘In Union there is Strength.’” We must summon that unity to surmount this crisis—confident that we are better than our politics.

Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people—does not even pretend to try. Instead he tries to divide us. We are witnessing the consequences of three years of this deliberate effort. We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership."

Thanks I will correct now - my substantive point is the same though. It is a lazy comparison to Hitler. Association fallacy etc.

Christy42

The he only linked him to the nazis and not Hitler is hilarious. No idea how you expect to win an argument from there really.

FYI Trump has not been consistent in blaming China and came out in their defense I believe the day after his son said anyone defending China was an idiot.

The pandemic may or may not be China's fault if the US' entire pandemic plan depended on China telling the truth then it was a garbage plan from the get go. Germany and New Zealand managed fine. China didn't tell them the truth either.

gormdubhgorm

Christy42 wrote: »

The he only linked him to the nazis and not Hitler is hilarious. No idea how you expect to win an argument from there really.

FYI Trump has not been consistent in blaming China and came out in their defense I believe the day after his son said anyone defending China was an idiot.

The pandemic may or may not be China's fault if the US' entire pandemic plan depended on China telling the truth then it was a garbage plan from the get go. Germany and New Zealand managed fine. China didn't tell them the truth either.

The average man on the street erroneously conflates the two together cynical ploy and tactic by Mattis.

I believe that Trump's argument would be he was fooled by WHO/China. He has been consistent on that.
I never said Trump's response to covid19 was good. I have said as much on the relevant thread. A half decent response to it would have rocketed him up in the polls a la Leo Varadkar.

StringerBell

There's an issue in that then, Trump will never say he was fooled by China. So that would end that particular one.

gormdubhgorm

StringerBell wrote: »

There's an issue in that then, Trump will never say he was fooled by China. So that would end that particular one.

I suppose you are correct. Trump would not be the type of fella to admit he was wrong/gullible/not know something. It would have to be called a 'China lie'.

aloyisious

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It is not lost on me that Muhammed Ali is hailed as a hero for not serving in Vietnam – ‘the no vietcong etc….’ Yet trump is slagged off. Interesting differences in narrative I think.

I decided not to respond to most of your long post as it seemed to be like the whataboutery you decried.

Ref Muhammed Ali and Trump, there is a marked difference between the position they took to involvement in that war. Ali stood up in public & refused to go, Trump did not say "Hell No, I Wont Go" instead avoided the war on medical grounds, and not of opposing that war. As you said, the difference is narrative.

gormdubhgorm

aloyisious wrote: »

I decided not to respond to most of your long post as it seemed to be like the whataboutery you decried.

Ref Muhammed Ali and Trump, there is a marked difference between the position they took to involvement in that war. Ali stood up in public & refused to go, Trump did not say "Hell No, I Wont Go" instead avoided the war on medical grounds, and not of opposing that war. As you said, the difference is narrative.

My point in the post was if you cherry pick any similarities to Hitler you can find similarities with him if you look hard enough. While ignoring substantive differences

As for Ali and Trump re-the draft:

It ended up exactly the same result though just different methods.

Yet Ali = hero? (who once said all white men were devils - member of the nation of Islam left that bit out)
Trump = coward?

Both men womanisers by the way.
I suppose you could call either a 'ladies man' if you are a supporter of either.

As for my long post I was making clear how ridiculous comparing Trump to Hitler. And showing how I could make exactly the same comparisons to other's - picking and choosing as Jay Willis did in his article. That point may have been lost in it's length. But I wanted to emphasise it.

StringerBell

Having the courage of your convictions is kind of important when distinguishing.

gormdubhgorm

StringerBell wrote: »

Having the courage of your convictions is kind of important when distinguishing.

True, but Ali was once a member of a racist separatist group and a documented wife beater.
Those uncomfortable truths are ignored/forgotten.
Yet Ali opened the Special Olympics in Croke Park 2003.

With the narrative around Trump on these pages he will never be invited to open a Special Olympics in CP. Many would probably say he could qualify to enter the Special Olympics himself!

extra gravy

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

With the narrative around Trump on these pages he will never be invited to open a Special Olympics in CP.

Doubtful, considering he likes to make fun of people with disabilities.

gormdubhgorm

extra gravy wrote: »

Doubtful, considering he likes to make fun of people with disabilities.

Well I saw that clip you are referring to, and Trump has done the same handshaking reaction to more than just people with disabilities. But I admit the optics were not good.

Christy42

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

The average man on the street erroneously conflates the two together cynical ploy and tactic by Mattis.

I believe that Trump's argument would be he was fooled by WHO/China. He has been consistent on that.
I never said Trump's response to covid19 was good. I have said as much on the relevant thread. A half decent response to it would have rocketed him up in the polls a la Leo Varadkar.

It wasn't a ploy. It was an insult. It is like arguing over the man being arrested has 5 or 10 murders to his name. Either way he isn't coming out of this looking good.

If someone starts talking about Trump only being called a nazi and not Hitler my first thought is I don't really care. Either way he is human garbage.

StringerBell

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

True, but Ali was once a member of a racist separatist group and a documented wife beater.
Those uncomfortable truths are ignored/forgotten.
Yet Ali opened the Special Olympics in Croke Park 2003.

With the narrative around Trump on these pages he will never be invited to open a Special Olympics in CP. Many would probably say he could qualify to enter the Special Olympics himself!

Ali being a "member of a racist separatist group and a documented wife beater" is neither or here nor there though and doesn't do anything for or against the argument that his stance on the Vietnam War was and is still markedly different to Trumps.

A wider discussion can always be had on anybody (relevant to the thread notwithstanding) but when focusing on one incident and asking what the difference is when the end result was the same it is quite simple, one man had the courage to stand on his convictions, the other didn't and took the sneak/cheater, cowardly I guess could also be used, way out.

gormdubhgorm

Christy42 wrote: »

It wasn't a ploy. It was an insult. It is like arguing over the man being arrested has 5 or 10 murders to his name. Either way he isn't coming out of this looking good.

If someone starts talking about Trump only being called a nazi and not Hitler my first thought is I don't really care. Either way he is human garbage.

See that is your own personal bias coming out. I too believe Trump is human garbage as well.
When he said George Flloyd will be looking down on an improved employment figure and I be happy about it, my jaw dropped. He has no idea how to deliver a message with sensitivity and when he tries it is crass.

But I would not compare him to the Nazi's/Hitler. Anyone comparing Trump to Hitler/Nazi's is an indication that a person has lost the argument, or trying to be sensationalist (Hitler and Nazism sells), or is blinded by hysteria.

No matter how you look at it Trump played his game and won using his own unique style and strategy.
If the American people don't like the fella, it is up to them to vote him out one way or another. But it is not going to effect my life whatever happens as an Irish citizen living in Ireland.

FrostyJack

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

But I would not compare him to the Nazi's/Hitler. Anyone comparing Trump to Hitler/Nazi's is an indication that a person has lost the argument, or trying to be sensationalist (Hitler and Nazism sells), or is blinded by hysteria.


If the American people don't like the fella, it is up to them to vote him out one way or another. But it is not going to effect my life whatever happens as an Irish citizen living in Ireland.

He is substantially a lesser person than on most metrics than Hitler, Hitler was a war hero and was capable of writing a book. There are a lot of similarities on how they came to power and what message both of them wanted to spread.

As said here a thousand times here now, the deflection we don't live in America so it doesn't matter who is in power there is absolutely childlike or deliberately being used to push apathy. The fact climate change and nuclear weapons treaties are being torn up all the time sending the World into a vastly more dangerous place, it very much affects us what mad man is in power. Ironically the US president has very little affect on domestic matters than he/she has on foreign policy.

extra gravy

FrostyJack wrote: »

He is substantially a lesser person than on most metrics than Hitler, Hitler was a war hero and was capable of writing a book. There are a lot of similarities on how they came to power and what message both of them wanted to spread.

Agree. Hitler liked books, classical music and architecture. Trump likes "pussy", big macs and golf. Intellectually, they are nothing alike. The other similarities are there alright, his supporters won't accept that though.

Midlife

aloyisious wrote: »

I decided not to respond to most of your long post as it seemed to be like the whataboutery you decried.

Ref Muhammed Ali and Trump, there is a marked difference between the position they took to involvement in that war. Ali stood up in public & refused to go, Trump did not say "Hell No, I Wont Go" instead avoided the war on medical grounds, and not of opposing that war. As you said, the difference is narrative.

I wouldn't have a problem with avoiding the war. Like any rational person would have done the same.

He basically has no respect for the military beyond t's ability to secure him votes and that putting money into it makes a lot of republicans and special interests happy.

timsey tiger

Midlife wrote: »

I wouldn't have a problem with avoiding the war. Like any rational person would have done the same.

He basically has no respect for the military beyond t's ability to secure him votes and that putting money into it makes a lot of republicans and special interests happy.

I guess he's playing the military for the fools that most of them are in the long and proud tradition of a long list of presidents before him. Seeing what Bush got away with vs Kerry, it's clear they are there for the taking. Any rational egomaniac seeking office would do the same.

Professor Moriarty

Midlife wrote: »

I wouldn't have a problem with avoiding the war. Like any rational person would have done the same.

He basically has no respect for the military beyond t's ability to secure him votes and that putting money into it makes a lot of republicans and special interests happy.

He has no respect for anyone. His wives, family, friends (if he actually had any real friends), his employees, his government. He pretends to respect people as long as they are of use. When they are no longer useful, he discards them and then insults them. He doesn't care about any other human being.

jibber5000

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

See that is your own personal bias coming out. I too believe Trump is human garbage as well.
When he said George Flloyd will be looking down on an improved employment figure and I be happy about it, my jaw dropped. He has no idea how to deliver a message with sensitivity and when he tries it is crass.

He never said he'd be happy looking down at the employment figures. He said he'd be happy looking down at the equality movement. What you've said is wrong.

"Hopefully, George is looking down right now and saying, 'This is a great day that's happening for our country.' It's a great day for him. It's a great day for everybody. This is a great day for everybody. This is a great day in terms of equality. It's really what our Constitution requires and it's what our country is all about."

gormdubhgorm

FrostyJack wrote: »

He is substantially a lesser person than on most metrics than Hitler, Hitler was a war hero and was capable of writing a book. There are a lot of similarities on how they came to power and what message both of them wanted to spread.

This is just your opinion but if you step back from your comment even slightly you will realise it is a bit hysterical.
You are now using another association fallacy. The reverse of guilt by association which is called honor by association.

Here you are willing to claim that any person who writes a book and fights a war makes them a good person

As said here a thousand times here now, the deflection we don't live in America so it doesn't matter who is in power there is absolutely childlike or deliberately being used to push apathy. The fact climate change and nuclear weapons treaties are being torn up all the time sending the World into a vastly more dangerous place, it very much affects us what mad man is in power. Ironically the US president has very little affect on domestic matters than he/she has on foreign policy.

I am just being honest it is not deflection and it is not childlike. What is childlike to me and fascinating in this thread is the echo chamber nature of it.
I realise a lot of people on this thread may be really invested in politics, probably members of thier local cumann's.

But people are looking at American politics to the prism of Irish politics. It is a different culture a different country
But let's not get hysterical and pretend the world is doomed.

There is such a thing as a nuclear deterrent which means nuclear missiles are merely a mickey swinging contest. It even worked where Saint JFK almost plunged the world into world war like an eejit. Climate crisis? I do my bit of bin recycling and if the human race is doomed. I find that the nearer it gets to a deadline it focuses minds. I am extremely cynical about the climate change industry if I am honest. Especially when countries can get around it with carbon credits.

TomOnBoard

For the record, Muhammed Ali was a conscientious objector, a black man who was an outspoken speaker
against decades of white man abuse and atrocity. His religious beliefs, based on the Kuran, prohibited him from fighting a war on behalf of Christians. His position on the Civil Rights struggle saw no place for African American men being drafted into fighting and dying for a US war against freedom fighters on the other side of the world who were battling a brutal French colonial system in their homeland, while at the same time, he and his black brothers and sisters were being beaten by clubs, bitten by dogs and lynched by racists all organised by the same country that wanted to send him off to die for it. He stood up and had the courage of his convictions and as a result, lost everything as a result of white punishment against him, had his passport taken away so he couldn't do his job either at home or abroad. His words speak volumes in their elegance

“My conscience won't let me go shoot my brother, or some darker people, or some poor hungry people in the mud for big powerful America. And shoot them for what? They never called me ******, they never lynched me, they didn't put no dogs on me, they didn't rob me of my nationality, rape and kill my mother and father... Shoot them for what? How do I got to go shoot them, poor little black people, little babies, children, and women? How can I shoot them poor people? Just take me to jail."

There spoke a man of courage!

And some people would have us believe that there is some similarity between that brave man, and a yellow bellied coward who hid behind his Daddy then and hides in a bunker now when he's not protected by the bullies he sent out to clear a path through peaceful protestors with thuggery that was straight out of the very Bull Connor playbook that Ali was standing against! Spare me the horrible false equivalencies!

gormdubhgorm

TomOnBoard wrote: »

For the record, Muhammed Ali was a conscientious objector, a black man who was an outspoken speaker
against decades of white man abuse and atrocity. His religious beliefs, based on the Kuran, prohibited him from fighting a war on behalf of Christians. His position on the Civil Rights struggle saw no place for African American men being drafted into fighting and dying for a US war against freedom fighters on the other side of the world who were battling a brutal French colonial system in their homeland, while at the same time, he and his black brothers and sisters were being beaten by clubs, bitten by dogs and lynched by racists all organised by the same country that wanted to send him off to die for it. He stood up and had the courage of his convictions and as a result, lost everything as a result of white punishment against him, had his passport taken away so he couldn't do his job either at home or abroad. His words speak volumes in their elegance

“My conscience won't let me go shoot my brother, or some darker people, or some poor hungry people in the mud for big powerful America. And shoot them for what? They never called me ******, they never lynched me, they didn't put no dogs on me, they didn't rob me of my nationality, rape and kill my mother and father... Shoot them for what? How do I got to go shoot them, poor little black people, little babies, children, and women? How can I shoot them poor people? Just take me to jail."

There spoke a man of courage!

And some people would have us believe that there is some similarity between that brave man, and a yellow bellied coward who hid behind his Daddy then and hides in a bunker now when he's not protected by the bullies he sent out to clear a path through peaceful protestors with thuggery that was straight out of the very Bull Connor playbook that Ali was standing against! Spare me the horrible false equivalencies!

So you have fallen victim to the Halo effect the myth that Ali did no wrong?
He joined a black nationalist separatist organisation on the back of his religion.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/muhammad-ali-nation-of-islam-michael-parkinson-interview-who-were-elijah-muhammad-a7066301.html

He also hit women!

https://www.espn.com/boxing/story/_/id/20861163/new-biography-muhammad-ali-offers-view-life-former-heavyweight-champion


"Ali was already having an affair with Veronica and at least one other woman in Africa," Eig told Schaap. "He became convinced that his wife, Belinda, was having an affair with someone he knew, and there was a confrontation in Zaire that led to Ali punching Belinda in the face.

"And Belinda said she had two black eyes as a result and had to wear sunglasses because she was afraid that if anybody saw that she'd received these black eyes, Ali would get in trouble and the fight would be called off. I don't think anyone else saw the fight itself, but there were other people who said they saw Belinda with black eyes."


But sure why let the truth get in the way of a narrative.
Trump = coward?
Ali = visionary hero?

(both cowards in my opinion)

moon2

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Here you are willing to claim that any person who writes a book and fights a war makes them a good person

Except that's not what was said at all. You've created a straw man and successfully destroyed it.

Trump being a "lesser man" than Hitler wasn't about being "good". It's just a statement that Hitler was far more capable than Trump on many levels. Hitler had the capacity to write a book. Trump barely has the capacity to read fluidly.

You rely on calling people hysterical and their arguments fallacious when debating. Perhaps rely on more factual statements to get a better response.

gormdubhgorm

moon2 wrote: »

Except that's not what was said at all. You've created a straw man and successfully destroyed it.

Trump being a "lesser man" than Hitler wasn't about being "good". It's just a statement that Hitler was far more capable than Trump on many levels. Hitler had the capacity to write a book. Trump barely has the capacity to read fluidly.

Not true if you look up Reductio ad Hitlerum you will see it is a common ploy on the net comparing someone to Hitler (Association fallacy - guilt by association)
But the other poster just reversed it and gave Hitler honour over Trump as the premise is that (fighting a war and writing a book) makes you a better person somehow.

But if Trump did start a war people would again compare him to Hitler and it would suddenly not be deemed brave.

Poor auld Trump can't win it seems.

Many of the arguments attacking Trump on this thread are fallacious (Hitler Nazi's and so on) and are only liked because they align with an echo chamber bias in the thread.

gormdubhgorm

moon2 wrote: »

Except that's not what was said at all. You've created a straw man and successfully destroyed it.

Trump being a "lesser man" than Hitler wasn't about being "good". It's just a statement that Hitler was far more capable than Trump on many levels. Hitler had the capacity to write a book. Trump barely has the capacity to read fluidly.

You rely on calling people hysterical and their arguments fallacious when debating. Perhaps rely on more factual statements to get a better response.

I have already went through in detail why calling Trump - Hitler or a Nazi was ridiculous and gave various examples of same. In a long post.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113730884&postcount=9090

But it appears to have either gone over people's heads, or it was just ignored as it did not align with the majority viewpoint on this thread.

It was telling that many liked the long post I responded to without even questioning it's content. Some even bookmarked it!

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113647685&postcount=8689

However, most of the post was based on the article of one individual Jay Willis who compared Trump to Hitler.

https://www.gq.com/story/is-america-heading-towards-fascism

Upon researching Willis I learnt he was prone to sensationalism and hyperbolic statements as he did on the Barton v Barr case


https://immigrationcourtside.com/2020/04/30/barton-v-barr-j-r-five-jettisons-principles-fudges-facts-in-pathetic-attempt-to-avoid-moral-responsibility-for-advancing-trump-administrations-white-nationalist-anti-im/

Where the same author said "Pathetic Attempt To Avoid Moral Responsibility For Advancing Trump Administration’s White Nationalist, Anti-Immigrant Agenda — Their Treachery & Cowardice Will NOT be Forgotten!"


I then pointed out the flaws in the Hitler comparison numerous examples. It merely was dismissed as 'whataboutism'.

But I did find it a fascinating study of the human condition, and the effect Trump has on some people in this thread - and worldwide.

ECO_Mental

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

So you have fallen victim to the Halo effect the myth that Ali did no wrong?
He joined a black nationalist separatist organisation on the back of his religion.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/muhammad-ali-nation-of-islam-michael-parkinson-interview-who-were-elijah-muhammad-a7066301.html

He also hit women!

https://www.espn.com/boxing/story/_/id/20861163/new-biography-muhammad-ali-offers-view-life-former-heavyweight-champion


"Ali was already having an affair with Veronica and at least one other woman in Africa," Eig told Schaap. "He became convinced that his wife, Belinda, was having an affair with someone he knew, and there was a confrontation in Zaire that led to Ali punching Belinda in the face.

"And Belinda said she had two black eyes as a result and had to wear sunglasses because she was afraid that if anybody saw that she'd received these black eyes, Ali would get in trouble and the fight would be called off. I don't think anyone else saw the fight itself, but there were other people who said they saw Belinda with black eyes."


But sure why let the truth get in the way of a narrative.
Trump = coward?
Ali = visionary hero?

(both cowards in my opinion)

What is wrong with you....! Mohammed Ali put everything on the line for something he believed in..his career even at the risk of going to jail...nobody here is saying he is perfect and it's great for you to bring up all his history as he is dead now and there has been countless books written about him and his flaws.

At the time though with no Twitter or internet none of this stuff ever came up or was in the public domain on how he was riding women all over the place and even hit them. BUT also he saw, heard and experienced being a black man in the USA in the 60's how many of those black kids got the **** kicked out of them and got murdered and the same NEVER came up in the news???.?

What i do know after all the dust settles and all the books are written History will not be kind to Trump! I have no doubt it will show he was by the biggest margin the worst POTUS ever.(

He is a racist, rapist, misogynist, physopath, egomaniac, failed business man, serial liar that does NOTHING that does not benefit himself directly.

HISTORY will confirm this.

You will be embarrassed that you supported this clown in the years to come!

FrostyJack

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

This is just your opinion but if you step back from your comment even slightly you will realise it is a bit hysterical.
You are now using another association fallacy. The reverse of guilt by association which is called honor by association.

Here you are willing to claim that any person who writes a book and fights a war makes them a good person

As pointed out below, I never ever said Hitler was a "good person" , I can link 45 youtube videos explaining what a strawman is like you seem to do on every post. Obviously his crimes and the results of his actions are of a magnitude far far greater than Trump has done thus far, that doesn't need to be explained to anyone. There are hundreds of similarities between the 2 that are not "association fallacy". Here are some quick ones, both ego maniacs, both don't listen to advisers, both came to power at the back of populism, both use "the other" to garner support... the list goes on and on. Better people than I have posted more accurate articles on exactly their similarities, you can google them.

But people are looking at American politics to the prism of Irish politics. It is a different culture a different country

I am not sure what your experience with American politics is, but I have lived there, visited may times and have lots of friends and family there. I have followed US politics closely since GW Bush and I know a good few here have similar if not greater experience so spare us from this nonsense.

There is such a thing as a nuclear deterrent which means nuclear missiles are merely a mickey swinging contest. It even worked where Saint JFK almost plunged the world into world war like an eejit. Climate crisis? I do my bit of bin recycling and if the human race is doomed. I find that the nearer it gets to a deadline it focuses minds. I am extremely cynical about the climate change industry if I am honest. Especially when countries can get around it with carbon credits.

I am not sure what this paragraph even means, it is all over the place. You do realise that "Saint JFK" was the only one who went against the idea of attacking Russia and Cuba during the crisis and hence we didn't have a nuclear war, it was his back channel negotiations to remove the missiles while secretly removing missiles from Turkey deescalated the situation, so I am not sure what revisionist history books you read. I think you need to read more about the climate crisis, as it doesn't appear from the above sentences what it entails.

The irony of using this argument to defend Trump, the man and his cronies that say Mexicans are rapists, muslims are ISS terrorists and protesters are ANTIFA etc you couldn't make it up.

aloyisious

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

But it appears to have either gone over people's heads, or it was just ignored as it did not align with the majority viewpoint on this thread.

But I did find it a fascinating study of the human condition, and the effect Trump has on some people in this thread - and worldwide.

Whatever about other posters views of Trump here, what characteristics or saving graces of Trump have you noted during your look at his record as President that you think may have been good for the presidency and the U.S both, seeing as he is running for re-election? I see from what you've posted that you don't generally approve of him.

Carfacemandog

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

But I would not compare him to the Nazi's/Hitler. Anyone comparing Trump to Hitler/Nazi's is an indication that a person has lost the argument, or trying to be sensationalist (Hitler and Nazism sells), or is blinded by hysteria.

We've been through this before, and you were entirely unable to refute how Trump is very comparable to the nazis (as his own ex secretary of defense, who Trump himself appointed, himself said).