Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VII (threadbanned users listed in OP)

Winding people up with concentration camp related content is pretty disturbing. Also Stephen Miller is known for lapping up to white supremacists as is.

Chips Lovell

Mod Note

One person has been banned and their post edited. As I said in a recent mod warning

Chips Lovell wrote: »

If you're just here to take pot shots at other posters or try wind them up, think twice about posting. There are many, many places where you can do this on the internet. This isn't one of them.

Be nice

Thanks

Leroy42

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I see it as merely another tactic to create outrage (among the anti-Trump brigade) in a tongue and cheek manner.

Considering the likes of Stephen Miller, Jared Kushner, and Ivana Trump are Jewish. I assume they know exactly how to have a subtle dig towards the other side of the house.
The political prisoners triangle reference is clever. Puts noses out of joint for those who are looking for offence.

It works Trump has gotten worldwide coverage and gets it constantly. Well played the Trump campaign still playing the game. Still getting people talking. That was what it is all about column inches and publicity good, bad, or indifferent.

The world is still talking about Trump and can't get enough of him.
Whether the fella is a good president, well that is a different issue.

Trump doesn't need worldwide coverage, he is POTUS and will get it no matter what simply because of the importance of the US in the world.

If getting likes on his twitter feed is all he is after then I can understand the thinking, but the goal is to get elected, and the reason to get elected is to get things done.

Annoying those that are already not on your side is not a way to win an election if you need to bring up your numbers. And people need to ask what the purpose of electing him would actually be? He can continue with his tweets and media interviews and looking to annoy people without actually being POTUS, so for many it would make sense to get in somebody that is actually interested, and capable, of doing the job rather than a person that thinks more along the lines of a YT influencer trying to generate likes and reshares.

Christy42

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I see it as merely another tactic to create outrage (among the anti-Trump brigade) in a tongue and cheek manner.

You have to remember SNL were making sketches about all Trump supporters being white supremacists and Nazi's way back in 2016! :eek:

<SNIP>

Considering the likes of Stephen Miller, Jared Kushner, and Ivana Trump are Jewish. I assume they know exactly how to have a subtle dig towards the other side of the house.
The political prisoners triangle reference is clever. Puts noses out of joint for those who are looking for offence.

It works Trump has gotten worldwide coverage and gets it constantly. Well played the Trump campaign still playing the game. Still getting people talking. That was what it is all about column inches and publicity good, bad, or indifferent.

The world is still talking about Trump and can't get enough of him.
Whether the fella is a good president, well that is a different issue.

If someone keeps generating outrage that way then at what point do you turn around and think, hey what if he was serious?

Is lol I am a racist really that great of a joke? The world loves true crime documentaries and the Tiger King. Trump is still a garbage pile of a human being from a moral perspective.

The dude is president and all his addresses used to be automatic television due to it. Same with Obama. If this is what he has to resort to to get attention as president of the most powerful country then it is a damning indictment of the man himself.

aloyisious

Christy42 wrote: »

The dude is president and all his addresses used to be automatic television due to it. If this is what he has to resort to to get attention as president of the most powerful country then it is a damning indictment of the man himself.

That, as I understood things were or should be, was the gold standard which other leaders sought. Trump is an all-new standard setter, just not a gold standard one.

StringerBell

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Did anyone else read the Wall Street journal transcript of their interview with trump ? His answer regards to Juneteenth displayed his lack of awareness of what is going on in his own White House.

He had to be reminded that his office has sent out messages marking the occasion previously too

Chips Lovell

Mod Note

Another poster infracted for getting personal. We're not posting these mod warnings for the good of our health.

abff

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I see it as merely another tactic to create outrage.....

The world is still talking about Trump and can't get enough of him.

Are you seriously suggesting that this is a clever ploy to get publicity and not just another ham fisted example of Trump’s team getting it wrong yet again?

And as for the suggestion that we can’t enough of Trump? The reality is quite the opposite. We’ve had far too much of him and wish he would just crawl back under his rock.

Chips Lovell

I do think there's a grain of truth in it. I believe there is an element in Trump's support base (and I'm not saying it's the only element) who love him not so much for what he stands for himself but because he riles up the kind of people they hate. So it's clever in the sense that he's playing to (one part of) his base.

Gwen Cooper

Chips Lovell wrote: »

I do think there's an element of truth in it. I believe there is an element in Trump's support base (and I'm not saying it's the only element) who love him not so much for what he stands for himself but because he riles up the kind of people they hate. So it's clever in the sense that he's playing to (one part of) his base.

This, 100%. Did someone say it here in the last few days, or was it on Twitter - they don't care that he does nothing for them, they love how triggered the other side is. It doesn't matter that human rights are being played with, as long as the libs are triggered.

sid waddell

Gwen Cooper wrote: »

This, 100%. Did someone say it here in the last few days, or was it on Twitter - they don't care that he does nothing for them, they love how triggered the other side is. It doesn't matter that human rights are being played with, as long as the libs are triggered.

There's a word to describe people like this. They're called sadists.

And sadism is an essential characteristic of all the worst regimes in human history, and their supporters.

When sadism is part of the equation, there are no depths of depravity to which a dictator and a regime will not be willing to plumb.

This is unquestionably the case with Trump and his support base.

Chips Lovell

I don't think delighting in seeing other people get cross can be described as sadism. That's more taking pleasure in other people's suffering.

sid waddell

Chips Lovell wrote: »

I don't think delighting in seeing other people get cross can be described as sadism. That's more taking pleasure in other people's suffering.

Taking pleasure at people "getting cross" at gross human rights abuse is taking pleasure at gross human rights abuse.

If somebody is taking pleasure at people being extremely angered by, say, small children dying in concentration camps due to maltreatment, it's because they themselves take pleasure in small children dying in concentration camps due to maltreatment.

You cannot divide them.

Trump's fascism is about not just rejecting the pain of others but in celebrating it, laughing at it.

It is no different in its nature in that regard to the very worst regimes in human history, which obviously includes the Nazis.

I'm totally sick of excuses being made for Trump and his supporters for this sort of stuff in the name of the very "political correctness" they falsely claim to be oppressed by.

There is a grotesque sickness of the mind poisoning anybody who can support such an evil demagogue as Trump.

Chips Lovell

Again, I think that's over the top. It's more like trolling, electoral trolling as it were. It's pretty childish, but it's a stretch to characterise it as sadistic.

You've an element of it here in Ireland, where there's a section of the electorate who'd vote for unreconstructed, gombeen Independents because they know it'll annoy everyone in Dublin.

John Waters (before he went off the deep-end) described the impulse very well in Dancing at the Crossroads.

duploelabs

Chips Lovell wrote: »

Again, I think that's over the top. It's more like trolling, electoral trolling as it were. It's pretty childish, but it's a stretch to characterise it as sadistic.

You've an element of it here in Ireland, where there's a section of the electorate who'd vote for unreconstructed, gombeen Independents because they know it'll annoy everyone in Dublin.

John Waters (before he went off the deep-end) described the impulse very well in Dancing at the Crossroads.

I don't think John Waters would be the perfect person to reference when talking about whacky fringe electorate

Chips Lovell

duploelabs wrote: »

I don't think John Waters would be the perfect person to reference when talking about whacky fringe electorate

LOL yeah. He always had a contrarian streak, but nobody probably would have guessed it would have led him to where he is now.

Anyway, if I recall correctly, the book opens up with him talking about how much he hated Sean Doherty and everything he stood for, but the denouement is him voting for Doherty in the 1987 General Election, essentially to give the two fingers to the "Dublin 4" types.

aloyisious

On the twitter front, Trump should probably be tweeting about twitter permanently suspending Katie Hopkin's account, seeing as how he follows its content. After Katie complained her Blue "verified" check mark [used to let users know an account is authentic] was removed, Twitter then removed her account, issuing a statement that read: “Keeping Twitter safe is a top priority for us. Abuse and hateful conduct have no place on our service and we will continue to take action when our rules are broken.”

Not being a twitter account holder, I didn't know there was a mark signifying an account is genuine and assume its the "blue bird" icon on tweets. The wording "permanently suspended" is wonderful.

Billy Mays

aloyisious wrote: »

On the twitter front, Trump should probably be tweeting about twitter permanently suspending Katie Hopkin's account, seeing as how he follows its content. After Katie complained her Blue "verified" check mark [used to let users know an account is authentic] was removed, Twitter then removed her account, issuing a statement that read: “Keeping Twitter safe is a top priority for us. Abuse and hateful conduct have no place on our service and we will continue to take action when our rules are broken.”

Not being a twitter account holder, I didn't know there was a mark signifying an account is genuine and assume its the "blue bird" icon on tweets. The wording "permanently suspended" is wonderful.

"Respected UK journalist" I think Trump referred to her as once

Tell me how

aloyisious wrote: »

On the twitter front, Trump should probably be tweeting about twitter permanently suspending Katie Hopkin's account, seeing as how he follows its content. After Katie complained her Blue "verified" check mark [used to let users know an account is authentic] was removed, Twitter then removed her account, issuing a statement that read: “Keeping Twitter safe is a top priority for us. Abuse and hateful conduct have no place on our service and we will continue to take action when our rules are broken.”

Not being a twitter account holder, I didn't know there was a mark signifying an account is genuine and assume its the "blue bird" icon on tweets. The wording "permanently suspended" is wonderful.

Twitter is a fascinating way to see the way conversations and news moves around the world now. It has replaced main evening news shows for me in how I get most of my content.

Depending on who you choose to follow can definitely impact the way a story is presented to you but that is not much different than choosing to turn on Fox News or MSNBC.

aloyisious

Tell me how wrote: »

Twitter is a fascinating way to see the way conversations and news moves around the world now. It has replaced main evening news shows for me in how I get most of my content.

Depending on who you choose to follow can definitely impact the way a story is presented to you but that is not much different than choosing to turn on Fox News or MSNBC.

In so far as onward transmission [my term] of others messages is concerned, I'd see twitter as being different to Fox and MSNBC as it [AFAIK] does not produce the material being forwarded, just acts as the router.

I'd have to change my understanding of how twitter is administered if you are aware of it editing [by way of presentation] the content of users tweets before the public sees them. A case in mind would be Trump himself as he'd be upset if twitter was interfering with what he tweeted. It seems to me that any alterations twitter makes to tweeters publications are after the fact upon complaint from others about the tweeted contents.

Tell me how

aloyisious wrote: »

In so far as onward transmission [my term] of others messages is concerned, I'd see twitter as being different to Fox and MSNBC as it [AFAIK] does not produce the material being forwarded, just acts as the router.

I'd have to change my understanding of how twitter is administered if you are aware of it editing [by way of presentation] the content of users tweets before the public sees them. A case in mind would be Trump himself as he'd be upset if twitter was interfering with what he tweeted. It seems to me that any alterations twitter makes to tweeters publications are after the fact upon complaint from others about the tweeted contents.

Twitter is only the platform.

It, generally speaking, does not produce the content which is being transmitted. Nor does it edit content outside of highlighting it in a particular way in some very rare occasions.

All the media outlets, individuals and channels share similar data on their twitter feeds as they do on their shows. In many cases, the same video will be displayed as is broadcast on their main bulletin for example but likes, retweets, and responses to the tweet provide a different dynamic than previously just watching a news broadcast.

sid waddell

Chips Lovell wrote: »

Again, I think that's over the top. It's more like trolling, electoral trolling as it were. It's pretty childish, but it's a stretch to characterise it as sadistic.

You've an element of it here in Ireland, where there's a section of the electorate who'd vote for unreconstructed, gombeen Independents because they know it'll annoy everyone in Dublin.

John Waters (before he went off the deep-end) described the impulse very well in Dancing at the Crossroads.

It really isn't.

Timothy Snyder talks about "sadopopulism" (I think Professor Snyder is being quite politically correct in referring to it as "populism"), where ordinary people who support a demagogue suffer because of him and his policies. But because others who don't support him are suffering more, it gives them a perverse sense of worth.

In this case, white working class Trump voters are suffering, but African Americans and other ethnic minorities are suffering more, therefore that gives the white working class Trump supporting base something to cling to.

He's destroying America, and destroying those who make up his base, but his base see others who are being destroyed more than they are.

One could also call this nihilism.

Hannah Arendt said that an ideology was a single idea taken to its logical extreme. Any ideology contained the seeds of totalitarianism - it could become divorced from reality, with a single premise eclipsing the entire world.

In Trumpism's case, one could argue that that single premise is to "own the libs". I used to joke back in 2016 that if Trump started World War III, his supporters reaction would be rejoicing at seeing "those salty liberal tears". But it doesn't seem such a joke now. Let's take the Tulsa rally. Scheduling the rally for Tulsa, where whites perpetrated a pogrom of extermination against blacks 99 years ago, and on Juneteenth, was a naked and deliberate two fingers to black pain. The decision to hold the rally at all during Covid is a two fingers to black pain because the black community has suffered disproportionately from Covid. Holding the rally at all, and without masks, is a signal that those black people do not matter to him. It's the exact sort of thing Trump's base love, because they love fascism, and they love the pain of others and making that pain as painful as possible. That is sadism.

Trumpism is observably divorced from reality. It is observably a cult and a mob. It has reached that situation, and I would argue it reached it a long, long time ago, probably right at the start of his candidacy, where that single premise, to "own the libs", can be taken to any extreme, right to the deepest depths of human depravity if Trump wants to push it far enough, and there's no reason to think he would not.

And this is not just Trumpism. This is a worldwide cultural and information war being waged by the right to completely destroy the concepts of truth, reason, the ability to think, in favour of mindless tribal atavism. If you destroy people's ability to think, you reduce them to hypnotised, tribal savages. If you do that you can lead people anywhere. This is what Trump's base is and they can be led anywhere now.

Trump's own words demonstrate his desire for chaos. See Fox News in 2014 when he salivated over the prospects of riots and "everything going to total hell".

Trump's supporters have been shown to desire chaos in huge numbers. See the Aarhus University political science study of 2019.

John Waters, who you mention, is now openly propagandising with a slogan modelled explicitly on the Nazis. Why? I'll leave that up to yourself to work out.

None of this is funny or "ironic". It's actual fascism.

So many people still continually refuse to face up to the reality of this, and it's because they still refuse to believe, still, after five years of this ****, that "it can't happen here" (in America). It's happening in America, it's happening in Britain (it's just at an earlier stage there), it's happening in Russia, Brazil, India, and numerous other countries.

aloyisious

Tell me how wrote: »

Twitter is only the platform.

It, generally speaking, does not produce the content which is being transmitted. Nor does it edit content outside of highlighting it in a particular way in some very rare occasions.

All the media outlets, individuals and channels share similar data on their twitter feeds as they do on their shows. In many cases, the same video will be displayed as is broadcast on their main bulletin for example but likes, retweets, and responses to the tweet provide a different dynamic than previously just watching a news broadcast.

OK, you're talking about getting news content from MSNBC or Fox [which are mainstream editors and producers of news programmes] via twitter accounts, rather than direct tweets from singular account holders. To me, pardon the analogy, the singular account holders on twitter outlined by me would be like Boards.ie account holders voicing their own personal opinions for the purpose of discussion, debate or broadening of knowledge. To me the exception to that is Trump using his twitter account as a tool to ensure his continuance in the White House, not for the benefit of discussion, debate or furtherance of knowledge.

Manic Moran

Going back to a topic from a couple months ago.

The US Navy's more thorough investigation on the COVID problem on the Carrier Group is over. Crozier will not be reinstated, also the promotion of his superior is suspended. Actions also to be taken against ship's chief medical officer and one or two others.

https://www.stripes.com/news/us/navy-capt-crozier-former-commander-of-uss-theodore-roosevelt-will-not-get-his-job-back-1.634465

“Had I known then what I know today, I would have not made that recommendation to reinstate Capt. Crozier. Moreover, if Capt. Crozier were still in command today, I would be relieving him,” Gilday said.

Gilday also said Crozier would not be eligible for a future command.

The Navy also delayed the promotion of Rear Adm. Stuart Baker, the commander of Carrier Strike Group 9 that included the Roosevelt, “pending further investigation,” Gilday said. Baker was the most senior officer on the Roosevelt when the outbreak occurred.

Check for the full text of the report (88 pages) towards the bottom of the link.

Jizique

Manic Moran wrote: »

Going back to a topic from a couple months ago.

The US Navy's more thorough investigation on the COVID problem on the Carrier Group is over. Crozier will not be reinstated, also the promotion of his superior is suspended. Actions also to be taken against ship's chief medical officer and one or two others.

https://www.stripes.com/news/us/navy-capt-crozier-former-commander-of-uss-theodore-roosevelt-will-not-get-his-job-back-1.634465

“Had I known then what I know today, I would have not made that recommendation to reinstate Capt. Crozier. Moreover, if Capt. Crozier were still in command today, I would be relieving him,” Gilday said.

Gilday also said Crozier would not be eligible for a future command.

The Navy also delayed the promotion of Rear Adm. Stuart Baker, the commander of Carrier Strike Group 9 that included the Roosevelt, “pending further investigation,” Gilday said. Baker was the most senior officer on the Roosevelt when the outbreak occurred.

Check for the full text of the report (88 pages) towards the bottom of the link.

Interesting development tonight with the AG Barr announcing that Manhattan’s top federal prosecutor is stepping down but this has been promptly denied by Geoffrey Berman, who has investigated Trump allies.
https://mobile.twitter.com/KenDilanianNBC/status/1274200226925031426

Chips Lovell

As with the descriptor "sadism", I think "fascism" isn't accurate. President Trump is many things, but he isn't a fascist. That's not to say that he's not one of the poorest presidents the country has had. He's almost certainly the poorest in living memory. But to call him a fascist credits it with a degree of ideological consistency he simply doesn't posses. Even if he did possess it, he is sorely lacking in the ability or energy it would require to introduce fascism into America.

There certainly are genuine fascists out there seeking to capitalise on Trump to further their own ends, but to credit him as the driving force is preposterous. Labelling everything fascism kind of devalues the word and it begins to lose its potency as a label for the real thing.

StringerBell

It's the continuous purging of independence and officials that should also betray exactly which direction the US is headed

Barr Abruptly Seeks to Fire U.S. Attorney Who Investigated Trump Associates https://nyti.ms/3fFzZBh

Every individual step can be explained away but when you look at the bigger picture the march toward autocracy is steady.

banie01

StringerBell wrote: »

It's the continuous purging of independence and officials that should also betray exactly which direction the US is headed

Barr Abruptly Seeks to Fire U.S. Attorney Who Investigated Trump Associates https://nyti.ms/3fFzZBh

Every individual step can be explained away but when you look at the bigger picture the march toward autocracy is steady.

Berman has issued a statement of his own that confirms he hasn't resigned, has no intention of resigning until a senate confirmed replacement is in place.

Some commentators have also speculated given that Berman is a court appointee that, Trump may not be able to dismiss him.

It is a further erosion of judicial independence however and more indication of a far too politicised DoJ.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/19/politics/southern-district-of-new-york-geoffrey-berman-jay-clayton/index.html

StringerBell

Yeah I just read it in the times article I linked, it's astonishing how much of the system is being eroded, corrupted and tore apart. I'm not sure the US survives 8 years of Trump.

volchitsa

Manic Moran wrote: »

Going back to a topic from a couple months ago.

The US Navy's more thorough investigation on the COVID problem on the Carrier Group is over. Crozier will not be reinstated, also the promotion of his superior is suspended. Actions also to be taken against ship's chief medical officer and one or two others.

https://www.stripes.com/news/us/navy-capt-crozier-former-commander-of-uss-theodore-roosevelt-will-not-get-his-job-back-1.634465

“Had I known then what I know today, I would have not made that recommendation to reinstate Capt. Crozier. Moreover, if Capt. Crozier were still in command today, I would be relieving him,” Gilday said.

Gilday also said Crozier would not be eligible for a future command.

The Navy also delayed the promotion of Rear Adm. Stuart Baker, the commander of Carrier Strike Group 9 that included the Roosevelt, “pending further investigation,” Gilday said. Baker was the most senior officer on the Roosevelt when the outbreak occurred.

Check for the full text of the report (88 pages) towards the bottom of the link.

If this adminstration didn't have such an appalling record of using personal sanctions against subordinates for its own agenda, I might be inclined to believe that. As it is, there are several things in that report that make me feel it's quite likely to have been written so as to reach the "right" conclusion.