Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VII (threadbanned users listed in OP)

listermint

Chips Lovell wrote: »

As with the descriptor "sadism", I think "fascism" isn't accurate. President Trump is many things, but he isn't a fascist. That's not to say that he's not one of the poorest presidents the country has had. He's almost certainly the poorest in living memory. But to call him a fascist credits it with a degree of ideological consistency he simply doesn't posses. Even if he did possess it, he is sorely lacking in the ability or energy it would require to introduce fascism into America.

There certainly are genuine fascists out there seeking to capitalise on Trump to further their own ends, but to credit him as the driving force is preposterous. Labelling everything fascism kind of devalues the word and it begins to lose its potency as a label for the real thing.

Those who are blind cannot see.

Often by choice.

We've come from a location of draining the swamp to removing the legal mechanisms put in place to curtail unfettered power. And you call it not fascism.


Chuckle......

listermint

Manic Moran wrote: »

Going back to a topic from a couple months ago.

The US Navy's more thorough investigation on the COVID problem on the Carrier Group is over. Crozier will not be reinstated, also the promotion of his superior is suspended. Actions also to be taken against ship's chief medical officer and one or two others.

https://www.stripes.com/news/us/navy-capt-crozier-former-commander-of-uss-theodore-roosevelt-will-not-get-his-job-back-1.634465

“Had I known then what I know today, I would have not made that recommendation to reinstate Capt. Crozier. Moreover, if Capt. Crozier were still in command today, I would be relieving him,” Gilday said.

Gilday also said Crozier would not be eligible for a future command.

The Navy also delayed the promotion of Rear Adm. Stuart Baker, the commander of Carrier Strike Group 9 that included the Roosevelt, “pending further investigation,” Gilday said. Baker was the most senior officer on the Roosevelt when the outbreak occurred.

Check for the full text of the report (88 pages) towards the bottom of the link.

I fully expected a military report commissioned by military leadership to hold that military leadership to account for bad decision making.

Definitely.

sid waddell

Chips Lovell wrote: »

As with the descriptor "sadism", I think "fascism" isn't accurate. President Trump is many things, but he isn't a fascist. That's not to say that he's not one of the poorest presidents the country has had. He's almost certainly the poorest in living memory. But to call him a fascist credits it with a degree of ideological consistency he simply doesn't posses. Even if he did possess it, he is sorely lacking in the ability or energy it would require to introduce fascism into America.

There certainly are genuine fascists out there seeking to capitalise on Trump to further their own ends, but to credit him as the driving force is preposterous. Labelling everything fascism kind of devalues the word and it begins to lose its potency as a label for the real thing.

Whether Trump himself is the driving force is irrelevant. He's the vehicle. You could identify several driving forces. Russia, because Russia wants to destroy America. The corporate kleptocratic class in America who care nothing for democracy, human rights or the environment, only monetary riches. The end times cultists of the evangelical movement. The gun nuts. The racists. Trump's monstrous ego and obsession with money and self glorification. All are driving forces. There is no one driving force, but he is the essential vehicle.

James Mattis saw fit to invoke the Nazis and he only worked as Trump's defense secretary.

Trump fits all of Umberto Eco's 14 criteria for fascism.

The move to fire Berman last night? Straight from the Carl Schmitt playbook. Corrupt the justice system to secure your own immunity.

"Labelling everything fascism" as you say? A deliberate straw man. Trump is labelled a fascist because he is one. What's "everything"?

Another frequent characteristic of some of the most prominent fascists and authoritarians throughout history is personal laziness. Hitler was extremely lazy and totally chaotic in his thinking.

sid waddell

StringerBell wrote: »

Yeah I just read it in the times article I linked, it's astonishing how much of the system is being eroded, corrupted and tore apart. I'm not sure the US survives 8 years of Trump.

"Checks and balances" me hoop.

Prepare for November, when Biden will lead the polls by 7-8 points, yet Trump will miraculously "win" again.

And the gullible will buy that it was "legitimate".

looksee

Manic Moran wrote: »

Going back to a topic from a couple months ago.

The US Navy's more thorough investigation on the COVID problem on the Carrier Group is over. Crozier will not be reinstated, also the promotion of his superior is suspended. Actions also to be taken against ship's chief medical officer and one or two others.

https://www.stripes.com/news/us/navy-capt-crozier-former-commander-of-uss-theodore-roosevelt-will-not-get-his-job-back-1.634465

“Had I known then what I know today, I would have not made that recommendation to reinstate Capt. Crozier. Moreover, if Capt. Crozier were still in command today, I would be relieving him,” Gilday said.

Gilday also said Crozier would not be eligible for a future command.

The Navy also delayed the promotion of Rear Adm. Stuart Baker, the commander of Carrier Strike Group 9 that included the Roosevelt, “pending further investigation,” Gilday said. Baker was the most senior officer on the Roosevelt when the outbreak occurred.

Check for the full text of the report (88 pages) towards the bottom of the link.

Yes, I saw the reports, but would be interested in your take on the situation?

Gbear

Chips Lovell wrote: »

As with the descriptor "sadism", I think "fascism" isn't accurate. President Trump is many things, but he isn't a fascist. That's not to say that he's not one of the poorest presidents the country has had. He's almost certainly the poorest in living memory. But to call him a fascist credits it with a degree of ideological consistency he simply doesn't posses. Even if he did possess it, he is sorely lacking in the ability or energy it would require to introduce fascism into America.

In some respects you are correct, in that Fascism was a pretty specific thing that existed in Europe in the first half of the 20th century, and had quite specific local ties, particularly in Italy where it originated, but these are ultimately semantic distinctions that are useful for certain narrow historical studies, and less useful for analysing modern politics.


The ways Trump isn't a fascist are trivial in comparison to how closely his regime resembles historical far right authoritarian regimes, including Italian Fascism.


Ultimately Fascism isn't like a law of physical reality. It's not something with precisely defined boundaries - it's more of a "you'll know it when you see it" kind of thing, and we absolutely are seeing it in the US, and in various other extremist nationalist authoritarian regimes around the world.


Trying to argue otherwise is frankly taking the semantic piss, or being willfully ignorant of how far gone they are.

Carfacemandog

Chips Lovell wrote: »

As with the descriptor "sadism", I think "fascism" isn't accurate. President Trump is many things, but he isn't a fascist. That's not to say that he's not one of the poorest presidents the country has had. He's almost certainly the poorest in living memory. But to call him a fascist credits it with a degree of ideological consistency he simply doesn't posses. Even if he did possess it, he is sorely lacking in the ability or energy it would require to introduce fascism into America.

There certainly are genuine fascists out there seeking to capitalise on Trump to further their own ends, but to credit him as the driving force is preposterous. Labelling everything fascism kind of devalues the word and it begins to lose its potency as a label for the real thing.

I've put a detailed post into it a while back, and it's hard to see Trump as anything but a fascist in honesty - https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113647685&postcount=8689

Are there any specific areas of fascism you think he is missing that disqualify him from such a label?

Chips Lovell

While I’ve often thought that his relationship with Kushner reminded me of Mussolini’s relationship with Ciano, the Italian leader Trump most resembles is Berlusconi. Permatanned loudmouth with a background in business and entertainment who utilises an innate flair for lowbrow populism to win power from a decaying two party system. The suspicion that that one of the reasons he seeks power is to advance his business interest. The devotion of so much time in office to ever more elaborate and blatant attempts to extricate himself from legal difficulties...

gormdubhgorm

Carfacemandog wrote: »

I've put a detailed post into it a while back, and it's hard to see Trump as anything but a fascist in honesty - https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113647685&postcount=8689

Are there any specific areas of fascism you think he is missing that disqualify him from such a label?

And to that post (which you copied and pasted mostly) I pointed out it's falsehoods, biased nature of the author, and logical fallacy therein (which you ignored and did not even read. You just referred me to your same post again!

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113730884&postcount=9090

In case you need reminding it is called the association fallacy or more specifically guilt by association.
Where you merely look for things that are similar to the Nazi's/Hitler to confirm the bias while ignoring the rest.
If trump was still a Democrat not a Republican would those comparisons be made then?

Chips Lovell

Carfacemandog wrote: »

I've put a detailed post into it a while back, and it's hard to see Trump as anything but a fascist in honesty - https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113647685&postcount=8689

Are there any specific areas of fascism you think he is missing that disqualify him from such a label?

Yes. For a start, the social and economic upheaval that helped bring fascism into being in Germany is completely different to the US today. What happened in German during and after World War One, was an almost unprecedented destruction of private wealth. And any wealth not lost as a result of the war evaporated during the hyperinflation. Within a matter of years a huge chunk of the upper and middle classes were left with nothing. That loss and anger about that loss led many to throw their lot in with Hitler. That shift in wealth is something that’s illustrated very well in Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, as is the current trajectory of US incomes and wealth. The problem in the US is very different and is rising inequality. That in itself is not a good thing but it doesn’t make them resemble inter-war Germany. The closest parallels are Britain and France around 1900.

Secondly, nostalgia for past glories was a characteristic of Nazism, but it isn’t something that’s exclusive to fascism. Lots of political movements hark back in this fashion. One of the main driving forces for Brexit was nostalgia for a time when Britain was a superpower. But that doesn’t make Brexit fascist. It’s not clever, but it’s not fascist.

Thirdly, Trump is the antithesis of a strongman. He is more interested in the prestige of being the president than actually doing the job. His inattention and inability mean he’s less of a strongman and more of a vacuum. And yes, into which some less than savoury elements have crept, but along with incompetence and inaction.

sid waddell

I only saw last night that on June 11th Trump tweeted his appreciation for the "S.S.".

Another example of a clear dog whistle which those it is aimed at (both his supporters and his opponents) know exactly what it means, but is designed so as to enable a defence of plausible deniability, ie. "You think that's a reference to the Nazi SS? You're nuts!"

Amazing how all these Nazi references keep cropping up, isn't it.

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-praises-ss-in-tweet-dc-national-guard-protests-2020-6?r=US&IR=T

"Our great National Guard Troops who took care of the area around the White House could hardly believe how easy it was," the president tweeted. "'A walk in the park', one said. The protesters, agitators, anarchists (ANTIFA), and others, were handled VERY easily by the Guard, D.C. Police, & S.S. GREAT JOB!"

gormdubhgorm

Chips Lovell wrote: »

Yes. For a start, the social and economic upheaval that helped bring fascism into being in Germany is completely different to the US today. What happened in German during and after World War One, was an almost unprecedented destruction of private wealth. And any wealth not lost as a result of the war evaporated during the hyperinflation. Within a matter of years a huge chunk of the upper and middle classes were left with nothing. That loss and anger about that loss led many to throw their lot in with Hitler. That shift in wealth is something that’s illustrated very well in Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, as is the current trajectory of US incomes and wealth. The problem in the US is very different and is rising inequality. That in itself is not a good thing but it doesn’t make them resemble inter-war Germany. The closest parallels are Britain and France around 1900.

Secondly, nostalgia for past glories was a characteristic of Nazism, but it isn’t something that’s exclusive to fascism. Lots of political movements hark back in this fashion. One of the main driving forces for Brexit was nostalgia for a time when Britain was a superpower. But that doesn’t make Brexit fascist. It’s not clever, but it’s not fascist.

Thirdly, Trump is the antithesis of a strongman. He is more interested in the prestige of being the president than actually doing the job. His inattention and inability mean he’s less of a strongman and more of a vacuum. And yes, into which some less than savoury elements have crept, but along with incompetence and inaction.

Again I already covered this in my previous post in reply to a copy and paste article I suggest it should be read.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113730884&postcount=9090

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Link dump deleted.

gormdubhgorm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Mod: Link dump deleted.

Sorry laptop tech difficulties no chance to edit.
On the ball though fair play.

gormdubhgorm

sid waddell wrote: »

I only saw last night that on June 11th Trump tweeted his appreciation for the "S.S.".

Another example of a clear dog whistle which those it is aimed at (both his supporters and his opponents) know exactly what it means, but is designed so as to enable a defence of plausible deniability, ie. "You think that's a reference to the Nazi SS? You're nuts!"

Amazing how all these Nazi references keep cropping up, isn't it.

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-praises-ss-in-tweet-dc-national-guard-protests-2020-6?r=US&IR=T

"Our great National Guard Troops who took care of the area around the White House could hardly believe how easy it was," the president tweeted. "'A walk in the park', one said. The protesters, agitators, anarchists (ANTIFA), and others, were handled VERY easily by the Guard, D.C. Police, & S.S. GREAT JOB!"

Again this is clearly the association fallacy in operation in full swing.
Oh he said S.S he clearly must mean the Schutzstaffel! When in fact if you read the article it states:

"Trump was presumably referring to the US Secret Service, but his tweet quickly drew attention because the abbreviation is most commonly used to describe the Schutzstaffel, Adolf Hitler's notorious paramilitary force."

This is also an example of Reductio-ad-Hitlerum in an argument.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Reductio-ad-Hitlerum

Something as simple of the use of the abbreviation S.S can be jumped upon aha got him! It is like people reading Nostradamus. People can read things the way they wish to see it.

extra gravy

Oh come on, anyone using "SS" is either very dumb or well aware of its connotations and using it deliberately. Hard to know if Trump is smart enough for the latter.

duploelabs

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

This is clearly the association fallacy in operation again in full swing.
Oh he said S.S he clearly must mean the Schutzstaffel. When in fact if you read the article it states:

"Trump was presumably referring to the US Secret Service, but his tweet quickly drew attention because the abbreviation is most commonly used to describe the Schutzstaffel, Adolf Hitler's notorious paramilitary force."

This is also an example of Reductio-ad-Hitlerum in an argument.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Reductio-ad-Hitlerum

'It is most often a desperate attempt to render the truth claim.'

Something as simple of the use of the abbreviation S.S can be jumped upon aha got him! It is like people reading Nostradamus. People can read things the way they wish to see it.

So if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, posts 88 facebook adverts with nazi symbols and 14 words in the first line, abbreviates the secret service to SS (no reason to abbreviate), referrers to far right protesters as fine people, then it's definitely not a duck?

Manic Moran

looksee wrote: »

Yes, I saw the reports, but would be interested in your take on the situation?

It's over 80 pages long, I haven't had time to do more than scan it yet.

Despite the cynicism of some posters above, and I accept that 'conclusions' are, inherently, a subjective thing, such as the statement that the CO placed the crew's comfort ahead of what was good for them, there are certainly some interesting factual points varying from the bemusing "Well, we didn't know physical distancing was important when we all gathered together in the hangar to see the captain off" to the definitive statements regarding the (non)effect of dispatch of the CO's email and bypassing of the chain of command. I had also been unaware of the medical officer's email to 130 people outside of the carrier's chain.

The gist I was getting is that CNO's position was that the email which caused Modly to get upset was a bad move, but in his opinion not sufficient to cause relief, but that the information uncovered as a result of the investigation was such that relief would have come anyway. The US Navy is extremely intolerant of mistakes, and has been for many years.

gormdubhgorm

duploelabs wrote: »

So if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, posts 88 facebook adverts with nazi symbols and 14 words in the first line, abbreviates the secret service to SS (no reason to abbreviate), referrers to far right protesters as fine people, then it's definitely not a duck?

So it confirms your bias and you say aha it must be true?
I remember when I heard of an organisation (a planning appeal meeting) who abbreviated themselves as the IRA. It caused much hilarity as the speaker continued 'we in the IRA believe etc'. The name of the organisation?

Inchicore Residents Association

They were obviously all paras? A lot of them with blue rinsed hair!

duploelabs

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

So it confirms your bias and you say aha it must be true?

Abosultely not, just pointing out the evidence

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I remember when I heard of an organisation (at DCC meeting) who abbreviated themselves as the IRA. It caused much hilarity as the speaker continued 'we in the IRA believe etc'. The name of the organisation?

Inchicore Residents Association

That has no relevance to the discussion

gormdubhgorm

duploelabs wrote: »

Abosultely not, just pointing out the evidence

That has no relevance to the discussion

What evidence?

Many posters including yourself are wrapped in the fallacy of association, and looking to confirm thier own bias at every opportunity.

If Trump wrote exactly the same tweet as a Democrat (which is was at one point) and not a Republican. I suspect you would have zero issue with it and understand SS as Secret Service.

sid waddell

Chips Lovell wrote: »

Yes. For a start, the social and economic upheaval that helped bring fascism into being in Germany is completely different to the US today. What happened in German during and after World War One, was an almost unprecedented destruction of private wealth. And any wealth not lost as a result of the war evaporated during the hyperinflation. Within a matter of years a huge chunk of the upper and middle classes were left with nothing. That loss and anger about that loss led many to throw their lot in with Hitler. That shift in wealth is something that’s illustrated very well in Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, as is the current trajectory of US incomes and wealth. The problem in the US is very different and is rising inequality. That in itself is not a good thing but it doesn’t make them resemble inter-war Germany. The closest parallels are Britain and France around 1900.

Secondly, nostalgia for past glories was a characteristic of Nazism, but it isn’t something that’s exclusive to fascism. Lots of political movements hark back in this fashion. One of the main driving forces for Brexit was nostalgia for a time when Britain was a superpower. But that doesn’t make Brexit fascist. It’s not clever, but it’s not fascist.

Thirdly, Trump is the antithesis of a strongman. He is more interested in the prestige of being the president than actually doing the job. His inattention and inability mean he’s less of a strongman and more of a vacuum. And yes, into which some less than savoury elements have crept, but along with incompetence and inaction.

i) The Nazis came to power because an opportunist demagogue who wanted to burn down the state created a fake narrative that the real economic hardship that was being faced by Germans after a global financial crash had all been caused by out group/s - the Jews, as well as "Communists" and "weak" "liberals".

Trump is an opportunist demagogue who is burning down the state and created a fake narrative that the real economic hardship being faced by many white Americans after a global financial crash was all caused by out groups - black Americans (Obama, "not even a real American, he's Muslim, not even born here"), Muslims (terrorists), Mexicans (rapists). Even the financial industry, which was to blame for the financial crash, was crudely reduced to "globalists", ie. Jews. "Political correctness" was a synonym for unapologetic minority voices and human rights for minorities, which amounted to (imagined) oppression of white people. Like with Hitler "weak" "liberals" were blamed.

A central common theme between Hitler, Trump and pretty much all fascists is the exploitation of real economic hardship to create a sea of anger among a dominant or traditionally dominant ethnic group - in both Germany and America this was/is white Christians - and the creation of a fake victimhood and fake oppression narrative.

The imagined "victim" is "pure" and virtuous. It is "the underdog". The imagined "oppressor" is framed as "the elite". It is "corrupt", "conspiratorial", "sneaky", exercising unseen power - yet paradoxically, it is simultaneously "weak".

The demagogue is the sole voice of "truth", the man of "the people" (ie. the chosen "in group", ie. white Christians). His opponents are "enemies of the people", and they include "fifth columnists" (ie. "the corrupt deep state"), which creates an air of conspiracy, which is designed to demolish trust in anybody outside the sole font of truth - the demagogue (and maybe his fervent backers).

But the demagogue is the actual elite, he is a man of big business and big money, he is an insider posing as an outsider and he engages in massive projection. He is everything he falsely claims to rail against. He is a con trickster, a pied piper, a fraud.

ii) Brexit in and of itself may not be fascist. But all fascists love Brexit, and they desire as hard a Brexit as possible. I have yet to come across a fascist who didn't like Brexit.

iii) A "strongman" is nothing more than the creation of a character. "Strongmen" are rarely strong, they are certainly not strong in any positive sense of the phrase, which would involve honesty, transparency, having the trust of others, empathy towards others.

"Strongmen", and certainly all fascist strongmen, are paranoid, insecure, weak. The portrayal of themselves as a "strongman" has an almost sexual aspect to it - a fantasy of imagined physical virility. It's cosplay. Trump, Putin, Bolsonaro all have this. Johnson has a form of it, the John Bull complex.

I'm sure I'm not alone in detecting a distinct sexual anxiety to the way Trump staged his pathetic "marching" photo op outside the White House recently. Trump is consistently paranoid about anything which would not portray him as a dominant, virile, healthy alpha male. He's paranoid about public knowledge of his health, about his ridiculous hair, about his weight, about the size of his fingers, about the size of his penis (he furiously "boasted" about having a hefty langer during a 2016 Republican debate).

sid waddell

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Again this is clearly the association fallacy in operation in full swing.
Oh he said S.S he clearly must mean the Schutzstaffel! When in fact if you read the article it states:

"Trump was presumably referring to the US Secret Service, but his tweet quickly drew attention because the abbreviation is most commonly used to describe the Schutzstaffel, Adolf Hitler's notorious paramilitary force."

This is also an example of Reductio-ad-Hitlerum in an argument.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Reductio-ad-Hitlerum

Something as simple of the use of the abbreviation S.S can be jumped upon aha got him! It is like people reading Nostradamus. People can read things the way they wish to see it.

You jumped straight into the "defence" that I described in my post. Well done.

Literally everything posted by Trump supporters is soooooooo predictable.

It's a bizarre and creepy role playing act.

Billy Mays

I've never once heard anyone refer to the Secret Service as the SS

Maybe this guy loves the Secret Service so much he got it tattoed on his stomach

Gbear

sid waddell wrote: »

I'm sure I'm not alone in detecting a distinct sexual anxiety to the way Trump staged his pathetic "marching" photo op outside the White House recently. Trump is consistently paranoid about anything which would not portray him as a dominant, virile, healthy alpha male. He's paranoid about public knowledge of his health, about his ridiculous hair, about his weight, about the size of his fingers, about the size of his penis (he furiously "boasted" about having a hefty langer during a 2016 Republican debate).

He came out with a Tweet the other day, unprompted as far as I know, of how he tottered down the ramp to give a speech at West Point, and was trying to come up with excuses nobody really asked for about why he did so (it was "slippy" and he didn't want the fake news getting a headline of him falling over).

Putin and Duterte are both munchkins, so they have to talk about how they personally go around murdering people or get photographed doing topless horseriding.

He's not very good at being a strongman, because he's so utterly feeble morally and physically, but mostly what that shows is that the pantomime of the strong man is more important than any actual delivery of it.


You only need to see the bizarre propaganda drivel that the cartoonist Ben Garison produces, where Trump is usually portrayed as a slab-jawed manly man, to get a sense of what the message is supposed to be from Trump and his associated mouthpieces.


I wouldn't recommend Garison's stuff by the way. It's among the most degenerate, simpering garbage you'll ever have the misfortune to come across. It elicits a sense of true embarrassment that any human could produce something like it.

Billy Mays

I've seen some of Garrison's cartoons. A fair dollop of anti semitism thrown into them aswell

gormdubhgorm

sid waddell wrote: »

i) The Nazis came to power because an opportunist demagogue who wanted to burn down the state created a fake narrative that the real economic hardship that was being faced by Germans after a global financial crash had all been caused by out group/s - the Jews, as well as "Communists" and "weak" "liberals".

Trump is an opportunist demagogue who is burning down the state and created a fake narrative that the real economic hardship being faced by many white Americans after a global financial crash was all caused by out groups - black Americans (Obama, "not even a real American, he's Muslim, not even born here"), Muslims (terrorists), Mexicans (rapists). Even the financial industry, which was to blame for the financial crash, was crudely reduced to "globalists", ie. Jews. "Political correctness" was a synonym for unapologetic minority voices and human rights for minorities, which amounted to (imagined) oppression of white people. Like with Hitler "weak" "liberals" were blamed.

A central common theme between Hitler, Trump and pretty much all fascists is the exploitation of real economic hardship to create a sea of anger among a dominant or traditionally dominant ethnic group - in both Germany and America this was/is white Christians - and the creation of a fake victimhood and fake oppression narrative.

The imagined "victim" is "pure" and virtuous. It is "the underdog". The imagined "oppressor" is framed as "the elite". It is "corrupt", "conspiratorial", "sneaky", exercising unseen power - yet paradoxically, it is simultaneously "weak".

The demagogue is the sole voice of "truth", the man of "the people" (ie. the chosen "in group", ie. white Christians). His opponents are "enemies of the people".

But the demagogue is the actual elite, he is a man of big business and big money, he is an insider posing as an outsider and he engages in massive projection. He is everything he falsely claims to rail against. He is a con trickster, a pied piper, a fraud.

ii) Brexit in and of itself may not be fascist. But all fascists love Brexit, and they desire as hard a Brexit as possible. I have yet to come across a fascist who didn't like Brexit.

iii) A "strongman" is nothing more than the creation of a character. "Strongmen" are rarely strong, they are certainly not strong in any positive sense of the phrase, which would involve honesty, transparency, having the trust of others, empathy towards others.

"Strongmen", and certainly all fascist strongmen, are paranoid, insecure, weak. The portrayal of themselves as a "strongman" has an almost sexual aspect to it - a fantasy of imagined physical virility. It's cosplay. Trump, Putin, Bolsonaro all have this. Johnson has a form of it, the John Bull complex.

I'm sure I'm not alone in detecting a distinct sexual anxiety to the way Trump staged his pathetic "marching" photo op outside the White House recently. Trump is consistently paranoid about anything which would not portray him as a dominant, virile, healthy alpha male. He's paranoid about public knowledge of his health, about his ridiculous hair, about his weight, about the size of his fingers, about the size of his penis (he furiously "boasted" about having a hefty langer during a 2016 Republican debate).

So you have only looked at all the things Hitler and the Nazi's have in common in your view (association fallacy). You have ignored the substantive differences. While at the same time using subjective terms such as 'weak', 'sexual anxiety' which you are some how detecting.

Let's look at the substantive differences between Trump and Hitler factually

One has had an ideology and a racist one at that.
The other does not.

Trump has Jews as his closest advisors even his daughter and son in law is Jewish. Trump also had Ben Carson an African American serving as his Housing Minister in 2017.

One was anti-capitalist and Anti-American.

Hitler hated American capitalism especially in his early years and would have despised Trump for that reason. Trump is Mr Capitalist.

No attempt to overthrow democracy

America is a much older democracy than Germany was when Hitler was in power. It's foundations are much more stable. Trump is merely a populist leader working in the confines of a democracy with no desire to overthrow it.

sid waddell

Gbear wrote: »

He came out with a Tweet the other day, unprompted as far as I know, of how he tottered down the ramp to give a speech at West Point, and was trying to come up with excuses nobody really asked for about why he did so (it was "slippy" and he didn't want the fake news getting a headline of him falling over).

Putin and Duterte are both munchkins, so they have to talk about how they personally go around murdering people or get photographed doing topless horseriding.

He's not very good at being a strongman, because he's so utterly feeble morally and physically, but mostly what that shows is that the pantomime of the strong man is more important than any actual delivery of it.


You only need to see the bizarre propaganda drivel that the cartoonist Ben Garison produces, where Trump is usually portrayed as a slab-jawed manly man, to get a sense of what the message is supposed to be from Trump and his associated mouthpieces.


I wouldn't recommend Garison's stuff by the way. It's among the most degenerate, simpering garbage you'll ever have the misfortune to come across. It elicits a sense of true embarrassment that any human could produce something like it.

I'm not familiar with Ben Garison but from what you say I presume his stuff is along the lines of your standard alt-right meme culture nonsense.

The refusal to wear a mask is another example of Trump's paranoia about his physical condition and his obsession with trying to appear physically omnipotent and virile.

Virus? What virus? I AM IMMUNE TO THE VIRUS!

This is an obsession that pervades throughout the crypto-fascist right-wing internationally.

Shouting is STRONG, listening is weak.

Right-wingers are STRONG (HANNITY), libs are weak (Colmes).

The incel "movement" was the entirely logical outcome of it all, when you think about it.

gormdubhgorm

sid waddell wrote: »

You jumped straight into the "defence" that I described in my post. Well done.

Literally everything posted by Trump supporters is soooooooo predictable.

It's a bizarre and creepy role playing act.

It is not a defence merely fact. I know what Trump meant by SS (secret service) for example - you are merely using your own bias to jump to your own conclusions.
For the record I am not a Trump supporter just an unbiased obverver of the hysterical reactions Trump causes among some people.

Christy42

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It is not a defence merely fact. I know what Trump meant you are merely using your own bias to jump to your own conclusions.
For the record I am not a Trump supporter just an unbiased obverver of the hysterical reactions Trump causes among some people.

Trump can say what he meant. Why does he always need translation. If this is all a 4 year run of misunderstandings he can learn how to say what he means. Otherwise I have no sympathy for him.

Actually the man can correct himself instead of needing others to do it. Simply send a tweet saying sorry I misphrased that meant X and didn't think the phrasing through.

Done.