Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VII (threadbanned users listed in OP)

Igotadose

aloyisious wrote: »

Ref my last above, I'm also taking it for granted that the GOP party as a whole is not a pure Trump faction where US politics is concerned. There must be more people in it like-minded to its future like Senators McCain and Romney, outside of its Trump faction so what of you: are you going to ensure that the GOP, as evinced leadership-wise by its Washington group loyal solely to Trump, will change track and move out of the Trump dead-end or will you follow him and them to the bitter end?

Regarding their swearing an oath of loyalty on a specific book in the same breath they use to speak the praises of Don Trump with, what say you of their honesty and right to hold office on the basis of upholding an oath of office?

Eh. Isaakson's retiring and didn't have the stones to stand up to Trump. I think there's no hope for today's GOP. If they suffer a big enough defeat in 2020 (not betting on it), losing both houses and the WH, maybe they'll rethink themselves.

I don't have a lot of hope, though. It's a 3 issue party: Brown people bad, Fetuses good, Guns good. Will always appeal to a segment of the US that might hover around 30% of the population, but with voter suppression and gerrymandering shenanigans, can still hold considerable political clout.

amandstu

What about democracy in Ireland ?Is this a wake up call that shows what a fragile thing it is.?

What can be done to ensure we do not follow the US down this rabbit hole?

pixelburp

The irony of all this is that Trump's toadying allies (and his own administration) has irrefutably highlighted that yes, Washington is indeed a swamp in dire need of draining. As always with these things, the anti corruption candidate proves to be the most corrupt, so perhaps the small chink of light is to highlight the need for reform or some breaking of chains. Unlikely given the nature of the system over there, but kudos to Trump in that fashion - he proved Washington was a swamp by being a snug fit.

Christy42

amandstu wrote: »

What about democracy in Ireland ?Is this a wake up call that shows what a fragile thing it is.?

What can be done to ensure we do not follow the US down this rabbit hole?

CSPE really. If people are better educated about the system they can find better ways to change it or fight if they don't like it than just voting for the weird option. We need to stop the extremes taking over. Listening but not letting them speak for more than they represent. Not giving as much power to a 1 vs 1 vote where suddenly both sides feel the need to back their candidate to the hilt.


Some of it is just people tend towards sunk cost fallacy and easy solutions were possible. We have to remember this isn't an "idiot" response but a human one (or we are all idiots) as those same impulses are in everyone including ourselves and the same sort of thing can be seen on the left even if it hasn't gone as far. And to remember that those that would subvert us will pretend to be friends and drag us slowly away from our true beliefs.

However most European countries have better checks and balances as well and so are more resistant. Things like PR stop us from shifting to extremes purely to stop the other extreme from winning. Minority and coalition governments help as well. And then things like independent bodies to divide up districts and random stuff like how the person in charge of ensuring fair elections in Georgia was running for election in Georgia. Stuff like that is illegal here and with good reason.

Edit: oh and we need to get money as far away from politics as possible.

AbusesToilets

Christy42 wrote: »

CSPE really. If people are better educated about the system they can find better ways to change it or fight if they don't like it than just voting for the weird option. We need to stop the extremes taking over. Listening but not letting them speak for more than they represent. Not giving as much power to a 1 vs 1 vote where suddenly both sides feel the need to back their candidate to the hilt.


Some of it is just people tend towards sunk cost fallacy and easy solutions were possible. We have to remember this isn't an "idiot" response but a human one (or we are all idiots) as those same impulses are in everyone including ourselves and the same sort of thing can be seen on the left even if it hasn't gone as far. And to remember that those that would subvert us will pretend to be friends and drag us slowly away from our true beliefs.

However most European countries have better checks and balances as well and so are more resistant. Things like PR stop us from shifting to extremes purely to stop the other extreme from winning. Minority and coalition governments help as well. And then things like independent bodies to divide up districts and random stuff like how the person in charge of ensuring fair elections in Georgia was running for election in Georgia. Stuff like that is illegal here and with good reason.

Edit: oh and we need to get money as far away from politics as possible.

The US also faces the difficulty of many changes requiring a constitutional amendment, which in today's climate would be nigh on impossible.

aloyisious

Igotadose wrote: »

Eh. Isaakson's retiring and didn't have the stones to stand up to Trump. I think there's no hope for today's GOP. If they suffer a big enough defeat in 2020 (not betting on it), losing both houses and the WH, maybe they'll rethink themselves.

There's this about Senator Isaksons replacement. https://www.ajc.com/blog/politics/who-challenging-kelly-loeffler-for-johnny-isakson-senate-seat/uSI2b40jvqEb9By6UxczvK/

I don't know the history of Kelly Loeffler but it seems she's the appointed stand-in til the special election to fill the position, identifies as a Trump supporter, has her own funding but a probable opponent from the right-wing of the GOP is Congressman Collins [high vis in the House hearings defending Don] and from what are labelled the left, an Atlanta Dem Pastor & other Dems.

This other link reports that there are two Senate seats up for grabs this year; Isaksons' and one other giving the Dems a chance to gain control of the Senate in Washington. I don't know who the 2nd senator is. https://time.com/5663443/johnny-isakson-retiring-senate/

Gbear

amandstu wrote: »

What about democracy in Ireland ?Is this a wake up call that shows what a fragile thing it is.?

What can be done to ensure we do not follow the US down this rabbit hole?

I suppose it's a question of what factors have lead to it and how many are shared with our system.

The number of fanatics in the US, the history of racial and religious division (outside of NI), a federal system with a large amount of gridlock baked into it, an executive that both oversteps the bounds of its role and is not proportionally representative (one or the other wouldn't be as big a problem - if POTUS has the same function as the Irish president, then the electoral college wouldn't do any harm), another non-proportionally representative branch of government in the Senate with actual legislative power, a much larger level of distrust in state institutions, enormous poverty far beyond anything we've seen here since the 50s, guns coming out their ears, etc, are all things that we don't and likely can't have here.

There might be a lesson in not resting on our laurels, but I'm not sure there's any specific lessons to be learned for our system from the state of the US.

duploelabs

Haven't seen this yet here but the other day Bill Barr has issued a letter to all law enforcement agencies that no one may investigate any Presidential Candidate, their campaign, staffers, or advisors without his personal express written permission. That's a bit authoritarian isn't it?

serfboard

AbusesToilets wrote: »

The US also faces the difficulty of many changes requiring a constitutional amendment, which in today's climate would be nigh on impossible.

As I said previously, the US Constitution is basically frozen in time now.

Therefore, if you want to make any lasting change, which will not be undone by the next administration, what you do is to appoint judges to the courts (and particularly SCOTUS) who will interpret the existing constitution in the way that you want.

On the current court, the Bushes (father and son) appointed three judges, Clinton, Obama and Trump appointed two each. And Trumps appointments were both in their early 50s, meaning that they could be there for another thirty years. Clarence Thomas, for example, has been there for 28 years, and is still only 71, so he could be there for another 10 years at least, surpassing the previous longest-tenured judge who served for 36 years.

serfboard

duploelabs wrote: »

That's a bit authoritarian isn't it?

What? Someone in the Trump administration is an authoritarian?

Colour me unsurprised.

Midlife

Gbear wrote: »

I suppose it's a question of what factors have lead to it and how many are shared with our system.

The number of fanatics in the US, the history of racial and religious division (outside of NI), a federal system with a large amount of gridlock baked into it, an executive that both oversteps the bounds of its role and is not proportionally representative (one or the other wouldn't be as big a problem - if POTUS has the same function as the Irish president, then the electoral college wouldn't do any harm), another non-proportionally representative branch of government in the Senate with actual legislative power, a much larger level of distrust in state institutions, enormous poverty far beyond anything we've seen here since the 50s, guns coming out their ears, etc, are all things that we don't and likely can't have here.

There might be a lesson in not resting on our laurels, but I'm not sure there's any specific lessons to be learned for our system from the state of the US.

Look after the lower middle class and working class.

More and more society is geared towards the wealthy.

If you allow that unchecked (for example thinking only about Dublin and mot giving a **** about the rest of the country or allowing systemic poverty to take a hold in all the small towns) then you can't blame people for voting for whoever promises to burn it all down.

Happened with both Trump and Brexit.

duploelabs

serfboard wrote: »

What? Someone in the Trump administration is an authoritarian?

Colour me unsurprised.

I know, I was more shocked last time I licked a 9v battery

EltonJohn69

After 3 years...,, Trump being president is still so crazy....

EltonJohn69

This speech is madness all lies and conspiracies.... no way will he be participating in the debates....

aloyisious

duploelabs wrote: »

Haven't seen this yet here but the other day Bill Barr has issued a letter to all law enforcement agencies that no one may investigate any Presidential Candidate, their campaign, staffers, or advisors without his personal express written permission. That's a bit authoritarian isn't it?

It seems to cover any investigation into funding of campaigns as well so if anyone brings info on improper funding to any agency within the DOJ umbrella, he will have to be informed for approval of any investigation. Allegedly it's because he has worries based on the DOJ inspector generals' report into the FBI [Comey] handling of the HRC investigation, that DOJ itself was tarred as a result, giving him a façade to have all such matters to him first before anything is done with the knowledge.

One thing that won't happen is him directly interfering with State and county etc agencies investigating such matters, unless they request help from the FBI. I also wonder if the letter broadly covers FOI requests from the public sent to the DOJ or its agencies in respect of election matters using the AG's letter as cover "sorry, we cant assist you in your enquiries as far as certain election matters are concerned".

EltonJohn69

Where is Rudy ??? Why isn’t he at Trumps acquittal party ?

eire4

amandstu wrote: »

What about democracy in Ireland ?Is this a wake up call that shows what a fragile thing it is.?

What can be done to ensure we do not follow the US down this rabbit hole?

To be fair their military and the massive as it was called military industrial complex is a huge part of the problem the US has become. But IMHO the most fundamental issue is that they have allowed money to completely control their government that is the key.

aloyisious

EltonJohn69 wrote: »

Where is Rudy ??? Why isn’t he at Trumps acquittal party ?

Fundraising now that Bill has his back?

Itssoeasy

Is trump doing a victory lap after yesterday ? He was saying he'd make comments today.

EltonJohn69

EltonJohn69 wrote: »

Where is Rudy ??? Why isn’t he at Trumps acquittal party ?

He's still trying to dig up dirt in Ukraine apparently.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/rudy-giuliani-and-co-plot-new-biden-probes-and-overseas-trip-as-trumps-ukraine-team-lies-in-ruin

EltonJohn69

That speech had more then a hint of Father Teds Golden Cleric speech.....

aloyisious

CNN is reporting that the head of the DNC is calling for a re-holding of the Iowa caucus. I cant see any reason fopr his call. If true, it'll be a gift for Don to slag the Dems with after his comments for the past two days.

EltonJohn69

aloyisious wrote: »

CNN is reporting that the head of the DNC is calling for a re-holding of the Iowa caucus. I cant see any reason fopr his call. If true, it'll be a gift for Don to slag the Dems with after his comments for the past two days.

Not a re-holding , more like a recount.... whole thing is a mess... apparently the numbers don’t add up

everlast75

https://twitter.com/sheLLbeLL_xo/status/1225231107341332481?s=09

This is perfect.

Btw for those that said the dem primaries are too nasty... not compared to this

Itssoeasy

Jesus but rand Paul was right on the money. Good man rand on that but you've kind of forgotten that since.

PopePalpatine

When your name is Rand, licking billionaire boots is second nature.

Gbear

Midlife wrote: »

Look after the lower middle class and working class.

More and more society is geared towards the wealthy.

If you allow that unchecked (for example thinking only about Dublin and mot giving a **** about the rest of the country or allowing systemic poverty to take a hold in all the small towns) then you can't blame people for voting for whoever promises to burn it all down.

Happened with both Trump and Brexit.

I think porting that over wholesale to the Irish situation is a bit too simplistic.

For one, I don't think there is anything like the ingrained class system that you have in the US, with its history of racial politics, or in the UK, where they have a feudal system that never quite died completely.
We have a far more generous welfare state than the US, and arguably than the UK (although the NHS perhaps distorts that a bit).

But the biggest difference is the difference of voting systems.

In both other countries, you have the main right wing party totally taking leave of their senses and jerking wildly to the right, because they can take their traditional voters for granted, and the marginal votes in the circumstances you're describing can be picked up using grievance identity politics of those people.

We're probably not immune to that, but the difference lies in that there's almost no chance of a party getting even a plurality of the votes with that tactic here, and even if they did, they would find it nigh-on impossible to form a government.

I'm sure it's possible for things to go tits up here, but I don't think it's likely it would happen the same way it has in the UK or the US.

Christy42

Gbear wrote: »

I think porting that over wholesale to the Irish situation is a bit too simplistic.

For one, I don't think there is anything like the ingrained class system that you have in the US, with its history of racial politics, or in the UK, where they have a feudal system that never quite died completely.
We have a far more generous welfare state than the US, and arguably than the UK (although the NHS perhaps distorts that a bit).

But the biggest difference is the difference of voting systems.

In both other countries, you have the main right wing party totally taking leave of their senses and jerking wildly to the right, because they can take their traditional voters for granted, and the marginal votes in the circumstances you're describing can be picked up using grievance identity politics of those people.

We're probably not immune to that, but the difference lies in that there's almost no chance of a party getting even a plurality of the votes with that tactic here, and even if they did, they would find it nigh-on impossible to form a government.

I'm sure it's possible for things to go tits up here, but I don't think it's likely it would happen the same way it has in the UK or the US.

I think coalitions or PR being the norm help stop that (though there may still be a risk).

If Fine Gael shift to the right massively their core voters have other options close to their beliefs. Conservatives and Republicans don't.

aloyisious

EltonJohn69 wrote: »

Not a re-holding , more like a recount.... whole thing is a mess... apparently the numbers don’t add up

Yeah, I got that after. Seems Bernie is upset about getting a greater number of popular votes than the others and the difference apparently not mattering when the vote figures were totted up showing the percentage per candidate on the vote display models. There does, on the model face shown, seem to be an anomaly but it might be explained by another totting-up.

aloyisious

Deleted User wrote: »

He's still trying to dig up dirt in Ukraine apparently.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/rudy-giuliani-and-co-plot-new-biden-probes-and-overseas-trip-as-trumps-ukraine-team-lies-in-ruin

I'm actually surprised that he was not made persona non grata there. It may read that Dons' form of real politic works when the O/P nation still needs assistance.

Ummm, is it purely coincidence that Bill Barr's advisory letter to all federal agencies under the DOJ umbrella comes out after the acquittal thus blocking any of said agencies from looking into matters concerning funding of campaigns? How is Rudy funding all his work abroad, accommodation, calls, flights etc for Don and his campaign, given how he's doing his personal attorney work for Don pro bono?

God forbid there a chance that some costs are being paid for by way of transfer of campaign funds raised under federal political campaign laws contrary to the way the funds are legally allowed to be used.

If my memory is right, there is a history of funding being secretly transferred from Don to repay the costs incurred by another of Dons lawyers, kind'a like "off the books" accounting.