Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VII (threadbanned users listed in OP)

aloyisious

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

Aye, I just give Trump the same treatment as other presidents regarding what he does versus what his administration does. I don't say about any president, or even Obama 'You didn't build that'. In my mind he gets credit for the policies that were promoted during his presidency, successes and failures. The administrators should simply be enacting whatever the policies are, which were mandated by the electorate. And yes there's always going to be tension there and disagreements, but the administrators who help the public have no legitimacy in any actions that are not 100% aligned with the goals of the president.

!00% simply enacting whatever Dons policies are? Mandated by the electorate? Enacting is the duty of the Senate and Congress, and not of the Public Service.

If you are referring to the Public Service when you wrote "no legitimacy", I'd point out that that would be the end of democracy in the US, no going to the courts to raise points of law, no dissent whatsoever. The US Court Service is part of the Public Service and is not there to simply rubber stamp the policies of whatever President is sitting in office.

If that is the course of policy that you believe that both US Houses of Congress and the US Public Service is obliged to follow blindly to the letter, then I will have to differ with you on that as that would definitely be a current attempt to institute a "Deep State" within the US under the guise of combatting a "Deep State".

everlast75

hotmail.com wrote: »

Oh I never said Trump wasn't racist.

A large proportion of America is racist. It is a racist country. A lot of the people who call out racism have their own issues and prejudices.

Regarding Trump speeches being funny and ridiculous. Do you not have a sense of humour? He's absolutely bonkers and the president of a country .

I do not see, in any way shape or form funny, that the President of the United States of America is, as you readily accept, a racist.

That is and cannot be funny to any right thinking individual. It should scare the ****ing life out of you.

kilns

everlast75 wrote: »

I do not see, in any way shape or form funny, that the President of the United States of America is, as you readily accept, a racist.

That is and cannot be funny to any right thinking individual. It should scare the ****ing life out of you.

Yeah and he is a white guy who wants to be orange, how can he be racist

Call Me Jimmy

aloyisious wrote: »

!00% simply enacting whatever Dons policies are? Mandated by the electorate? Enacting is the duty of the Senate and Congress, and not of the Public Service.

If you are referring to the Public Service when you wrote "no legitimacy", I'd point out that that would be the end of democracy in the US, no going to the courts to raise points of law, no dissent whatsoever. The US Court Service is part of the Public Service and is not there to simply rubber stamp the policies of whatever President is sitting in office.

If that is the course of policy that you believe that both US Houses of Congress and the US Public Service is obliged to follow blindly to the letter, then I will have to differ with you on that as that would definitely be a current attempt to institute a "Deep State" within the US under the guise of combatting a "Deep State".

No I was referring to people in the executive branch. Raising points of law is not a policy disagreement so of course it is legitimate. But leading people in the executive should not be going against the policy goals of the administration / president like the ambassador was alluding to. I definitely wasn't talking about the other branches they are rightly complete independent.

Call Me Jimmy

Christy42 wrote: »

What factories? Manufacturing is in recession in the US last I checked. Trump doesn't give a **** about manufacturing. He just says that to get votes. That was obvious 4 years ago.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/01/10/upshot/economy-in-a-nutshell-manufacturing-in-recession-services-booming.amp.html


Bernie has plans for the healthcare system (not it'll be so easy - actual plans) and education. Investing money back into the people of the US. Trump has attempted to allow insurance companies to avoid people with pre existing conditions (currently in court and supported legislation to get rid of it in 2017) to help the insurance companies make even more money. He has also repeatedly tried to cut education funding. Bernie wants to socialise more of it and pump more money into education.

Trump has funnelled money back towards the military which is a big operation in the US and allowed sales of weapons to Saudi Arabia again. Bernie would be reducing the military funding (unsure of his Saudi position).

Essentially Trump has been nearly entirely pro big business and already rich people (the trade war was a dumb idea which helped no one, it was not pro establishment but that is only one policy). Bernie is largely the opposite.

As to whoever said that the issue people had with Trump was personality. See the above. He has attempted to guy the US working class. I am absolutely against most of his policies. The fact that most of his speeches show he doesn't have a clue what is going on also does not help his case.

Trump is trying to implement anti establishment polices. A manufacturing recession has no bearing on whether he is trying to incentivise business and supply chains to come back, with the greatest emphasis on manufacturing in decades. It can't be understated what a change in philosophy that is. I'm noticing a pattern that people say 'Trump doesn't give a **** about x', saying he's not truly empathic therefore the things he's doing don't count. He is taking an obvious economic hit in the short term just to implement these policies which have economic, cultural and national security motives. If you say the trade war is bad for the US economically, it's part of a wider strategy.

What do you think the point of the trade war is, that he just wants 'war with eastasia' for propaganda purposes? Or do you think he thinks primitively that he can tax China and then the US gets more tax money? It's one arm of a strategy to make the US competitive and less reliant on China and it is a generational change that as you say goes strongly against the will of the establishment. Are ye sure there wouldn't have been an even deeper manufacturing recession without Trump?

Whether it is successful or not in the long run I'm not judging, it IS economic heresy but I don't hold the predictive power of economists in high esteem.

Agreed, re healthcare! Regulations swing massively back and forth between democratic and republican administrations like clockwork.

Strong border policies is another one, the original sin of Trump and is significantly anti-establishment. It is another pillar in the strategy I was mentioning earlier. Bernie used to recognise the need for sovereignty (or the healthcare system) to be protected by borders, he wandered onto the reservation this election cycle though.

They have differences of approach and focus, but they are very much aligned. My worry about Bernie is he has shown signs to me that he will be a lot more milquetoast then his supporters think. Trump is expected to have turned decades worth of economic attitudes and policies around and brought supply chains home in his first term, I wonder will Bernie be held to the same standard because he will be up against it.

everlast75

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

I definitely wasn't talking about the other branches they are rightly complete independent.

Like the judiciary?

Outlaw Pete

SNIP. Don't dump tweets please.

Call Me Jimmy

everlast75 wrote: »

Like the judiciary?

Of course.

everlast75

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

SNIP

Thanks for posting that. It was riveting.

While you're here, do you now agree that Trump is a racist?

Christy42

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

I refuse to sign into news sites, can ye summarise the key info (and date) in a sentence or two?

Huh. I can see it. Must be a limited number per month deal


Jan 2020. Manufacturing is in recession services are booming.

12000 lost in manufacturing in December. 8000 lost in mining. Manufacturing indexes down. Overall economy fine but my point was that Trump has not helped manufacturing jobs in spite of his bluster.

Edit: and it has a side point about wages not increasing as expected with the new jobs.

hotmail.com

everlast75 wrote: »

I do not see, in any way shape or form funny, that the President of the United States of America is, as you readily accept, a racist.

That is and cannot be funny to any right thinking individual. It should scare the ****ing life out of you.

This is why you don't hear that people find Trump funny because you get this kind of response. Over the top hysteria.

everlast75

hotmail.com wrote: »

This is why you don't hear that people find Trump funny because you get this kind of response. Over the top hysteria.

How fantastic it must be for you not to have to worry about the fact that your life will not be affected by the President of the US being a racist. You're born lucky in that respect.

However, the fact that you don't have empathy for the literal millions of people that he can affect with a tweet, a sentence or the stroke of a pen speaks volumes.

And it is not hysteria ffs. He is not some harmless drunk in the corner of the pub shouting the n word. Do you not think that someone with as much power as he holds aligning with racism is an issue? Could you go check a history book?

JFC.

serfboard

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

I refuse to sign into news sites, can ye summarise the key info (and date) in a sentence or two?

From the article:

The New York Times wrote:

the United States economy looks like this: Manufacturing and some adjacent industries are in contraction. The service sector, driven by consumers, is booming. And while it’s relatively easy to find a job — the unemployment rate (3.5 percent) hasn’t been this low since 1969 — it’s a lot harder to get a meaningful raise.

The last bit is puzzling. 3.5% unemployment suggests full employment. However, if an economy is at full employment, wages should go up because it's harder to find workers so you have to incentivise by paying more. However wages are not going up. The author of the article speculates that:

The New York Times wrote:

Perhaps the tight labor market is showing up in ways that don’t appear in economic data, such as in more flexible work arrangements, or a greater willingness of employers to hire underqualified workers and train them.

To me, either the black economy is much bigger than estimated, or the unemployment percentage number is off. I've heard of Americans not registering as unemployed so maybe that covers some of it?

hotmail.com

everlast75 wrote: »

How fantastic it must be for you not to have to worry about the fact that your life will not be affected by the President of the US being a racist. You're born lucky in that respect.

However, the fact that you don't have empathy for the literal millions of people that he can affect with a tweet, a sentence or the stroke of a pen speaks volumes.

And it is not hysteria ffs. He is not some harmless drunk in the corner of the pub shouting the n word. Do you not think that someone with as much power as he holds aligning with racism is an issue? Could you go check a history book?

JFC.

Well clearly the US president doesn't affect me. I don't live there.

Secondly, finding someone bonkers and funny doesn't mean a person agrees with or supports that person and the views that they hold.

duploelabs

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

SNIP.

Yep wonderful event /s

Donald Trump in India: Ten killed in Delhi violence during visit
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-51612461

pixelburp

hotmail.com wrote: »

A lot of the hate for Trump seems to be personality driven rather than policy.

I've made this point repeatedly on here that there has been no substantive changes to the economy or society while Trump has been in office. There has been no change to the way things are done there. This disrupter label is a nonsense and the moral panic about him just keeps his voters happy.

And a lot of non Trump haters find his speeches and press conferences hilarious. They don't take him seriously. A point missed by many.

Re. the economy, that's provably false. Not least for farmers caught in the middle of his Trade "war"; his actions have a demonstrative, quantifiable effect on both huge parts of the economy, governmental & ground-level.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/21/trump-teases-more-trade-bailout-money-for-farmers-116591

“If our formally targeted farmers need additional aid until such time as the trade deals with China, Mexico, Canada and others fully kick in, that aid will be provided by the federal government,” Trump tweeted in all-caps. He also added, erroneously, that the money for the aid would come from tariffs his administration has slapped on billions of dollars of imported goods. Economists have shown that U.S. businesses and consumers are paying those duties, rather than China.

As for society, his appointments to the EPA and Education boards are having quantifiable effects to the environment and schooling, to name two. DeVos' preferences towards Charter Schools is having an effect on education; while with a Fossil Fuel lobbyist appointed to the head of the EPA, we're seeing deregulation and erosion of elements such as the Endangered Species Act, or various environmental legislation being eroded.

hotmail.com

pixelburp wrote: »

Re. the economy, that's provably false. Not least for farmers caught in the middle of his Trade "war"; his actions have a demonstrative, quantifiable effect on both huge parts of the economy, governmental & ground-level.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/21/trump-teases-more-trade-bailout-money-for-farmers-116591



As for society, his appointments to the EPA and Education boards are having quantifiable effects to the environment and schooling, to name two. DeVos' preferences towards Charter Schools is having an effect on education; while with a Fossil Fuel lobbyist appointed to the head of the EPA, we're seeing deregulation and erosion of elements such as the Endangered Species Act, or various environmental legislation being eroded.

These are serious changes alright but I just don't see them as substantive enough to warrant the attention and moral panic about Trump.

Every president will introduce changes, some good and some bad. But the economic system based on the market stays the same. I think that's my point.

serfboard

hotmail.com wrote: »

Oh I never said Trump wasn't racist.

A large proportion of America is racist. It is a racist country. A lot of the people who call out racism have their own issues and prejudices.

Regarding Trump speeches being funny and ridiculous. Do you not have a sense of humour? He's absolutely bonkers and the president of a country .

I've quoted this several times now, but it remains, for me, the best article I've ever read about Donald Trump:

Matt Taibbi wrote:

This cycle has led to more alienation and made the 2020 election a gruesome, exhausting black comedy. This is our penance for turning the presidential campaign into a bread-and-circus entertainment. Middle Americans got so used to getting nothing out of elections, they started treating national politics for what it had become to them, a distant, pretentious sitcom.

Now they’re writing their own script. They can’t arrange for Jake Tapper to be fed to a shark, so they’ll settle for rolling Donald Trump into Washington. It’s hard to see right now, it being the end of our society and all, but the situation is not without humor, in a “What does this button marked ‘Detonate’ do?” sort of way. Can America shoot itself in the head a second time? It sounds, appropriately enough, like the premise of a Trump TV show.
...
He ends up telling a story about early voting in Tennessee in 2016, and a congressman who told him if the whole country was voting like this, he was going to win by a lot. “And we won,” he says. “And we won by a lot.”

Press accounts will call this a lie, and of course it is, and even the crowd knows it. But they cheer anyway. In response, Trump stops and does his trademark stump flourish, turning sideways to flash his iguanoid profile before stalking around the lectern in resplendent, obese glory, inviting all to Get a load of me!

It’s indulgent, absurd, narcissistic, and appalling, unless you’re a Trump fan, in which case it’s hilarious
...
A news media that pretends moral outrage will greedily cover his every move (cable-news profits have soared 36 percent since Trump began his run four years ago).

pixelburp

hotmail.com wrote: »

These are serious changes alright but I just don't see them as substantive enough to warrant the attention and moral panic about Trump.

Every president will introduce changes, some good and some bad. But the economic system based on the market stays the same. I think that's my point.

I fundamentally disagree, and think you're speaking from the benefit of not being a citizen. Obviously so am I, but believe it's being a teensy bit disingenuous to sniff that dismantling environmental regulations, the attempted scuttling of the ACA, phoney tax-breaks, slanting the school system towards fee-paying, and a Trade War that's effin' the agricultural economy to not be "substantive enough". If that isn't, what is?

Arguably the only reason Medicare-For-All has become such a huge, huge issue is because Trump & the GOP tried to completely repeal the ACA. Trump's actions had a quantifiable effect on the social landscape, in attempting to take away something suddenly fundamental and necessary. Overall though, Trump has basically removed a huge chunk of Obama era regulations.

If a fraction of those things were done in Ireland, there'd be (justifiable) outcry, yet with America it's merely... ? What? I'd go so far as to suggest you're merely desensitised to the outsized vulgarity of American politics TBH.

serfboard

pixelburp wrote: »

Arguably the only reason Medicare-For-All has become such a huge, huge issue is because Trump & the GOP tried to completely repeal the ACA.

The ACA, or Obamacare, previously Romneycare when implemented in Massachusetts, was originally devised by the right-wing think-tank, The Heritage Foundation, in an attempt to stave off Medicare-For-All.

Englo

serfboard wrote: »

The ACA, or Obamacare, previously Romneycare when implemented in Massachusetts, was originally devised by the right-wing think-tank, The Heritage Foundation, in an attempt to stave off Medicare-For-All.

All of this is true, but the black guy before Trump put it in place (as a compromise, his initial plan was far more wide reaching) so they have to get rid of it. That is the full and total reason as to why so many of them hate it and want it gone, even those who would be dead by now without it.

There's a reason so many republican voters have been polled as hating Obamacare but loving the ACA, despite the fact that they are literally the same thing with "Obamacare" being a nickname for the ACA.

everlast75

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

Of course.

So, I guess then Trump should keep his mouth shut regarding Stone's case, or leave Flynn's case alone, or not attack Judges that will be sitting on the bench hearing upcoming appeals concerning his taxes or McGhan's testimony?

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1232292061833056257?s=20

aloyisious

everlast75 wrote: »

So, I guess then Trump should keep his mouth shut regarding Stone's case, or leave Flynn's case alone, or not attack Judges that will be sitting on the bench hearing upcoming appeals concerning his taxes or McGhan's testimony?

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1232292061833056257?s=20

As adult reasoning goes, Don's opinion is clearly unreasoned by bias.

Englo

We live in a world where this is a real headline, and where this person is a demi God to his worshippers as we see on here.

Trump doctor hid cauliflower in mashed potatoes to improve diet: report
Former White House physician Ronny Jackson told The New York Times that he regretted leaving his position before he could implement the diet and exercise regimen planned for Trump.

“The exercise stuff never took off as much as I wanted it to,” he said. “But we were working on his diet. We were making the ice cream less accessible, we were putting cauliflower into the mashed potatoes.”

Why bother with that nonsense? Anyone who has had cauliflower and cheese has "hidden" cauliflower.

Englo

Deleted User wrote: »

Why bother with that nonsense? Anyone who has had cauliflower and cheese has "hidden" cauliflower.

I figured it would add a bit if levity, which could help given he and his supporters are so fond of throwing children into concentration camps while they go about attempting to establish a dictatorship (let's not pretend he, Barr, etc will allow a fair election and leave office willingly if they lose, because they know for a fact the criminal trials will begin immediately after the leave office).

Going by his previous weird comments on food and health, it's not surprising that they had to use a technique genuinely reserved for 3 year olds on him (there's likely a reason they didn't use spinach or Kale, e.g. He would see it), and I reckon if he found out the reaction would have been similar to a 3 year olds also.

listermint

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why bother with that nonsense? Anyone who has had cauliflower and cheese has "hidden" cauliflower.

Wait what...


You hide cauliflower for your spouse's dinner?

Are you serious....

This sort of stuff is on kids not grown adults or pets who won't take their pills

aloyisious

Englo wrote: »

I figured it would add a bit if levity, which could help given he and his supporters are so fond of throwing children into concentration camps while they go about attempting to establish a dictatorship (let's not pretend he, Barr, etc will allow a fair election and leave office willingly if they lose, because they know for a fact the criminal trials will begin immediately after the leave office).

I had some thoughts about that. If he's not re-elected, pull the federal staff & private caterers etc out of the House if he refuses to leave, cut off all facilities, oil, gas, electricity, water, catering - no deliveries and put security on all entrances so no one enters. As he'd no longer be president, his ex-administration team would have their W/H security passes cancelled.

Is this Ronny Jackson a USN Admiral?

hotmail.com

pixelburp wrote: »

I fundamentally disagree, and think you're speaking from the benefit of not being a citizen. Obviously so am I, but believe it's being a teensy bit disingenuous to sniff that dismantling environmental regulations, the attempted scuttling of the ACA, phoney tax-breaks, slanting the school system towards fee-paying, and a Trade War that's effin' the agricultural economy to not be "substantive enough". If that isn't, what is?

Arguably the only reason Medicare-For-All has become such a huge, huge issue is because Trump & the GOP tried to completely repeal the ACA. Trump's actions had a quantifiable effect on the social landscape, in attempting to take away something suddenly fundamental and necessary. Overall though, Trump has basically removed a huge chunk of Obama era regulations.

If a fraction of those things were done in Ireland, there'd be (justifiable) outcry, yet with America it's merely... ? What? I'd go so far as to suggest you're merely desensitised to the outsized vulgarity of American politics TBH.

I just have a different view. Trade wars often happen. This isn't new. Tax breaks to the rich. Wow.. we've never seen that before. A president helping wealthy schools. Hadn't even heard that but it isn't exactly earth shattering. America is an unequal society.

The environmental stuff was bound to happen under any Republican that got elected. That's because that's what the people, or at least half or so of them, want.

Trump had campaigned on more infrastructural changes and he hasn't even done that. No wall built.

So again I just think as an observer that nothing has really changed to peoples daily lives. Sure the impeachment is already forgotten. We were told on here how historical it was.

Far from desensitised, I feel there is almost unanimity regarding the terror and panic of Trump on here. I'm just saying I don't agree with it and many others don't.

Hande hoche!

Deleted User wrote: »

Why bother with that nonsense? Anyone who has had cauliflower and cheese has "hidden" cauliflower.

It's not quite the level of the two scoops story.