Dublin City Council rent arrears

splinter65

X111111111111 wrote: »

People on low wages can't afford to make rent shocker.

People on €203 SW pay €25. How low do you think it should go?

Sleepy

There's very little incentive to pay rent to the council.

What happens when they eventually get around to evicting a tenant? It's an *extremely* rare occurrence because: as soon as the tenant is evicted, they're back on the waiting list of people the council are legally obliged to house and receive priority on the basis that they are now homeless. The net result of an eviction from social housing is a mountain of legal costs for the council (while the tenant claims more public funds via legal aid) and the likelihood of the council having to foot the bill for expensive emergency accommodation until they re-house the tenant in another of their properties or manage to dump them onto the private market via HAP.

splinter65

X111111111111 wrote: »

I've no idea but i'd imagine the better one gets paid the more chance they can make rent payments. It's all well and good saying let them move out of Dublin but to where and do you think someone on minimum wage is going to commute from let's say Athlone to Dundrum daily?

You don’t seem to grasp the idea of meanstesting at all. The LA look at your income and they charge €20 for the first €200 income and 20c for every € of income after that. So a guy/girl on the dole with €203 per week pays €25 rent.
If they won’t pay that, what makes you think they’ll pay more if they start working 39hrs at minimum wage?

Diceicle

For further colour on this picture.
In 2016, councils nationally were owed €65,000,000 in unpaid rents.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/council-tenants-owe-65m-in-unpaid-rent-437052.html

This seems to have increased to €75,000,000 judging by the tiny snippet of this article that I can access.

https://www.businesspost.ie/ireland/councils-owed-228m-in-rents-and-loan-arrears-623a932d

mikep

Here's a mad idea...

Introduce the concept of actions having consequences..

Non payers should be evicted and housed in a family hub type arrangement, moving a family from the hub to the non payers house.

This would require the refit of more buildings to hubs etc..

Once moved from the house to the hub they would need to start regular repayments until arrears cleared thus demonstrating ability and willingness to pay.

A bit draconian but action is needed..

There seems to be a growing clamour for a "forever home" so if you want one you need to show you can pay for it...

SteM

Klonker wrote: »

....
If a political party targeted something like this and make it a part of their mandate to make the system fairer I really think they'd do very well as there is a lot of anger about this out there among the workers of the country. Its just strange that nobody seems to have the will to do it. Had a little hope with Leo's 'for the people who get up for work in the morning' but alas, it was just a soundbite.

Post recession and the USC, effecting PAYE workers, was brought in and has stayed in - no marches on Leinster House. Water charges due to be brought in and certain groups got out to protest heavily and it's now pretty much politically dead.

Certain groups in this society are more liable to complain and get their way, that's the Irish way.

handlemaster

Old diesel wrote: »

Do we have any figures for what the arrears rate is for private rental.....

How many private tenants are in arrears and the total amount.

And re fair rent - how might we define fair rent for private tenants.

Seems odd that fair rent only becomes an issue when too little is paid.

Is there such a thing at all as too much rent or rent being unfair because it's stupidly high cost.

Fair rent is what the market dictates.

The Student

X111111111111 wrote: »

Moved out of Dublin to where?

Does it matter where.

If tenants make an agreement and don't adhere to it then why should we be worried about where they are sent.

Or would you be favour of allowing them contine living in the same property and not dealing with the arrears?

The Student

mikep wrote: »

Here's a mad idea...

Introduce the concept of actions having consequences..

Non payers should be evicted and housed in a family hub type arrangement, moving a family from the hub to the non payers house.

This would require the refit of more buildings to hubs etc..

Once moved from the house to the hub they would need to start regular repayments until arrears cleared thus demonstrating ability and willingness to pay.

A bit draconian but action is needed..

There seems to be a growing clamour for a "forever home" so if you want one you need to show you can pay for it...

Ironically I was discussing this very topic with my father who is in his early 80's and this is exactly what was done in the 1940's. if you went in to these once you made damn sure you never went back into them again.

Rent was the first thing to be paid from any income into the property after expierencing the above. it definitely acted as a deterent.

Saudades

Diceicle wrote: »

Am I understanding this correctly?

"The average weekly rent is €69.41 with the highest weekly rent charge registered as €265.87. The weekly rent is .....calculated at 15% of the household’s biggest earner."

This highest registered rent of €265 - in order for that payment to be 15% of the highest salary in the household, one of the occupants has to be earning €1,774 a week, or ~ €92,500 per annum.

Is that correct?

It appears that they do take into account subsidiary earners too;

2. Calculation of Rents -
The rent of a dwelling let on differential rent will be calculated as 15% of the principal earner’s weekly assessable income, which exceeds €32.00 in the case of a ‘single person’ principal earner and €64.00 in the case of a ‘couple’ principal earner. Where a spouse/partner is in receipt of any weekly income over €32.00 the couple allowance will not apply.

After the rent payable in respect of the principal earner has been assessed, 15% of the weekly assessable income of each subsidiary earner, which exceeds €32.00 (€64.00 in the case of a “couple” subsidiary earner), will be added to the weekly rent, subject to the following maximum contributions:

• The maximum weekly rent contribution that will be assessed on the income of any individual subsidiary earner will be €21.00.
• The maximum total weekly rent contribution that will be assessed on the incomes of subsidiary earners in any individual household will be €84.00.

X111111111111

splinter65 wrote: »

You don’t seem to grasp the idea of meanstesting at all. The LA look at your income and they charge €20 for the first €200 income and 20c for every € of income after that. So a guy/girl on the dole with €203 per week pays €25 rent.
If they won’t pay that, what makes you think they’ll pay more if they start working 39hrs at minimum wage?

I lived in a council house for several years before we purchased it so i know all about means testing.

X111111111111

mikep wrote: »

Here's a mad idea...

Introduce the concept of actions having consequences..

Non payers should be evicted and housed in a family hub type arrangement, moving a family from the hub to the non payers house.

This would require the refit of more buildings to hubs etc..

Once moved from the house to the hub they would need to start regular repayments until arrears cleared thus demonstrating ability and willingness to pay.

A bit draconian but action is needed..

There seems to be a growing clamour for a "forever home" so if you want one you need to show you can pay for it...

There is no actions have consequences anywhere in Ireland. Look at the banks, look at the health service, the justice system, politicians commiting insurance fraud. Monkey see monkey do.

splinter65

X111111111111 wrote: »

I lived in a council house for several years before we purchased it so i know all about means testing.

It wasn’t means tested until about 10 years ago. I’m interested to know how you think a tenants ability to pay should be calculated.

X111111111111

splinter65 wrote: »

It wasn’t means tested until about 10 years ago. I’m interested to know how you think a tenants ability to pay should be calculated.

Our rent was always based on income and ability to pay. Maybe different council areas have various systems.

It should be calculated on their earnings.

L1011

splinter65 wrote: »

It wasn’t means tested until about 10 years ago. I’m interested to know how you think a tenants ability to pay should be calculated.

Differential rents are about 30 years old

Spanish Eyes

Never mind, the DCC parking charges are being increased as a measure to help the shortfall.

Probably for many things besides the rental arrears. But I am sure that is a feature nonetheless.

Don't tackle it, cover it up with other things.

Time for an Independent Mayor I say! I live in hope. Not that it will be the solution for everything, but it's a start.

Geuze

Diceicle wrote: »

For further colour on this picture.
In 2016, councils nationally were owed €65,000,000 in unpaid rents.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/council-tenants-owe-65m-in-unpaid-rent-437052.html

This seems to have increased to €75,000,000 judging by the tiny snippet of this article that I can access.

https://www.businesspost.ie/ireland/councils-owed-228m-in-rents-and-loan-arrears-623a932d

This data is available in various published documents.

Also, see this website to check your council's income collection rates:

http://localauthorityfinances.com/financial-performance/

Geuze

See Appendix 7 here to see Income collection rates:

https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/publications/files/afs2016_audited_for_31_las.pdf

In 2016, 85% of rents due were collected, and there were 73m of arrears.

Geuze

Also, note that housing loans collection rates are worse than housing rents collection rates, typically.

Cork County collected 55% of housing loan repayments due to it.

Geuze

2017 data

https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/publications/files/afs2017_audited_for_31_las_1.pdf

See Appendix 7.

78m arrears nationwide.

Mrs OBumble

Diceicle wrote: »

A SF TD if I'm not mistaken. Whoever they are, surely a letter from the council telling them they have 1-3 years to get their affairs in order and sort their own, non-state-subsidised accommodation would be in order?
I mean, from my reading of the article, one could reasonably assume there might be another earner in the house, and if they have a reasonable wage, the earnings for the family could be in excess of €125,000 per year gross - while living in council accommodation.
Somethings not right with that.

I agree with you.

But legally, due to the forever-home nature of social-housing tenancies, the only way do to this is if the tenant is in rent arrears or is indulging in anti-social behaviour.

Means is assessed when the house is allocated. After that, income is used to calculate rent but the amount is capped.

Sleepy

Geuze wrote: »

Also, note that housing loans collection rates are worse than housing rents collection rates, typically.

Cork County collected 55% of housing loan repayments due to it.

I genuinely don't mean this to be prejudiced but from experience of analysing the data with a couple of councils (I work in Business Intelligence and one of my niche specialities is social housing software systems), you'll find a large chunk of that figure will be Caravan Loans.

The Travellers Sections in the Housing Departments of any of the councils I've worked with tend do very little chasing in relation to arrears as they get little results from their efforts and the hassle they get when they try is horendous: I'm not exagerating when I say they are literally issued with stab vests for this activity.

The Student

Geuze wrote: »

This data is available in various published documents.

Also, see this website to check your council's income collection rates:

http://localauthorityfinances.com/financial-performance/

Very interesting reading regarding Dublin they have the lowest housing rent collection percentage and one of the highest commercial rates collection percentage which should be commended based on the sheer number of businesses in their catchment area.

So chances are those in employment in Dublin and renting social housing are more than likely earning more than their counterparts in other parts of Ireland. But yet the council have a lower success rate than the other city and county councils despite the fact that the (I assume) same means testing criteria is used throughtout the various councils for rental calculations.

Geuze

Sleepy wrote: »

I genuinely don't mean this to be prejudiced but from experience of analysing the data with a couple of councils (I work in Business Intelligence and one of my niche specialities is social housing software systems), you'll find a large chunk of that figure will be Caravan Loans.

The Travellers Sections in the Housing Departments of any of the councils I've worked with tend do very little chasing in relation to arrears as they get little results from their efforts and the hassle they get when they try is horendous: I'm not exagerating when I say they are literally issued with stab vests for this activity.

Can I just stop you there and ask:

the councils give housing loans for the purchase of caravans?????

splinter65

Geuze wrote: »

Can I just stop you there and ask:

the councils give housing loans for the purchase of caravans?????

Yes they do. But any travellers I’ve helped to get this “loan” refer to it not as a “loan” but a “grant”.
They’re understanding is that it’s not repayable.
Tipp Co Co don’t do it anymore as a result.
The “grant” Included being connected to the ESB and mains water.
....and it wasn’t a “caravan” either it was a 3/4 bedroom demountable dwelling ( a very large mobile home like you see in trailer parks in the US).

Geuze

These dwellings would be located where? In halting sites?

The Student

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I agree with you.

But legally, due to the forever-home nature of social-housing tenancies, the only way do to this is if the tenant is in rent arrears or is indulging in anti-social behaviour.

Means is assessed when the house is allocated. After that, income is used to calculate rent but the amount is capped.

This is ridiculous. There could be a large amount of income coming into the property and the rent can be capped. No wonder people describe it as like winning the lotto.

Jinglejangle69

The Student wrote: »

This is ridiculous. There could be a large amount of income coming into the property and the rent can be capped. No wonder people describe it as like winning the lotto.

Bingo.

You get a council house on low income, work your way up to let's say 100k a year and you pay a capped pittance in rent no matter what for the rest of your days.

Jackpot.