Flight 752 brought down by Iran - mod warning in |OP

Curious_Case

smurgen wrote: »

America has lost 8 armed nuclear missiles and accidentally dropped a few.

Yup, and used them intentionally twice

alchemist33

This thread seems to be 10% discussion and 90% point scoring. I might just stick to the one in the aviation forum

Gatling

alchemist33 wrote: »

I might just stick to the one in the aviation forum

You do realise if this thread gets locked or mod actions happen they will head to that tread and carry on

Timberrrrrrrr

Curious_Case wrote: »

Yup, and used them intentionally twice

And those aren't the only times they fired nuclear weapons, look into the amount of depleted uranium rounds they fired in Iraq, people will be dying from them for generations.

smurfjed

Taken from Pprune written by someone who obviously have the knowledge



The continuous rod warhead is pretty common in anti-aircraft missiles; effectively a charge expands a structure of end welded rods at right angles to the flight path, generating a circle of steel of large diameter. If it intercepts the aircraft before it flies apart it acts like a saw blade. Here's a drawing. With a shaped charge it seems possible for the guide head to survive as the end is probably designed to direct the explosive force to fling the rod(s) out.

woohoo!!!

At least they've admitted it and ended the charade of a cover up. A disaster from start to finish and whatever semblance of good will they had got is now, like the plane, in flames. The Iranian people themselves were lied to by their own government with multiple fatalities by their own army, I'm sure that's going to go down well.

Curious_Case

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

And those aren't the only times they fired nuclear weapons, look into the amount of depleted uranium rounds they fired in Iraq, people will be dying from them for generations.

Yes, was that the armour piercing rounds ??

alastair

markodaly wrote: »

Western != American

So again, the Americans never stated what you claim they have stated.

US intelligence is part of ‘western intelligence agencies’.

perrito caliente

It will be hard for most reasonable people to find America less than partially culpable for this tragedy, and there will be a lot of anger directed at them for threatening and terrorising another much lesser developed country, to the point at which people have died both during the funeral, and again with this aircraft accidentally shot down. Very sad what's happened and the American Administration should hang their heads in shame. Low level bullies breaking into another person's home and causing all kinds of unexpected consequences.

Gatling

smurfjed wrote: »

Taken from Pprune written by someone who obviously have the knowledge



The continuous rod warhead is pretty common in anti-aircraft missiles; effectively a charge expands a structure of end welded rods at right angles to the flight path, generating a circle of steel of large diameter. If it intercepts the aircraft before it flies apart it acts like a saw blade. Here's a drawing. With a shaped charge it seems possible for the guide head to survive as the end is probably designed to direct the explosive force to fling the rod(s) out.

It seems russian systems use 3d cubes as shrapnel rather than rods , earlier to neatly pack more in to a cylindrical rocket and tend to be more lethal ,it's literally thousands of perfectly formed cubes tearing through aircraft ,I'd imagine most of the victims would have been struct with shrapnel

Spook_ie

iebamm2580 wrote: »

The simple fact is i am right and you are wrong, the plane exploded upon impact. Hence the plane blew up.

The plane didn't blow up on impact otherwise the debris field would be over a much larger area.

woohoo!!!

perrito caliente wrote: »

It will be hard for most reasonable people to find America less than partially culpable for this tragedy, and there will be a lot of anger directed at them for threatening and terrorising another much lesser developed country, to the point at which people have been died both during the funeral, and again with this aircraft accidentally shot down. Very sad what's happened and the American Administration should hang their heads in shame.

This is 100% on the Iranians, the airplane, no one else. Their trigger finger/bad training, their cover up, their only admitting when Canada and Ukraine put pressure on given multiple deaths of their citizens.

At the same time, the near war situation, a separate issue, is mostly on Trump. Any general, and head of special forces etc, for any country is now fair game for assasination under the fig leaf of terrorist plotting terror re international law.

Boggles

smurfjed wrote: »

Now can you understand our dismay at the fact that the area was bulldozed within two days?

Again as the Ukrainians who were on the ground confirmed.

The area was not "bulldozed".

They used the buckets of machinery to collect the debris. It's in the pictures and not a very hard concept to understand TBF.

They just admitted to downing the plane, it would be the shíttiest cover up in the history of cover ups if they were destroying parts of the plane, wouldn't it?

Curious_Case

perrito caliente wrote: »

It will be hard for most reasonable people to find America less than partially culpable for this tragedy, and there will be a lot of anger directed at them for threatening and terrorising another much lesser developed country, to the point at which people have died both during the funeral, and again with this aircraft accidentally shot down. Very sad what's happened and the American Administration should hang their heads in shame. Low level bullies breaking into another person's home and causing all kinds of unexpected consequences.

Beautiful place !

http://icrom.ir/registration-and-travel/about-tehran/

smurgen

woohoo!!! wrote: »

This is 100% on the Iranians, the airplane, no one else. Their trigger finger/bad training, their cover up, their only admitting when Canada and Ukraine put pressure on given multiple deaths of their citizens.

At the same time, the near war situation, a separate issue, is mostly on Trump. Any general, and head of special forces etc, for any country is now fair game for assasination under the fig leaf of terrorist plotting terror re international law.

Well there are those who say it's not terrorism if it's a state actor and would be more the declaration of war or war crime category.

Curious_Case

Boggles wrote: »

Again as the Ukrainians who were on the ground confirmed.

The area was not "bulldozed".

They used the buckets of machinery to collect the debris. It's in the pictures and not a very hard concept to understand TBF.

They just admitted to downing the plane, it would be the shíttiest cover up in the history of cover ups if they were destroying parts of the plane, wouldn't it?

Absolutely, why cover up a mistake when you've admitted it ?

Boggles

woohoo!!! wrote: »

This is 100% on the Iranians

Well actually no it isn't.

In terms of the final report into the downing of the flight, all factors that lead to the plane crashing including circumstances up to and surrounding it will be included.

Like I said previously it is usually an unfortunate series of events that leads to the downing of civilian aircraft.

The assassination of the Iranian general is certainly a factor.

woohoo!!!

smurgen wrote: »

Well there are those who say it's not terrorism if it's a state actor and would be more the declaration of war or war crime category.

He was their enemy's leading general. No doubt he did bad stuff. The US by killing him has changed the rules so to speak as to who is fair game. Maybe India should take out Pakistan's leading general, label him a terrorist who had plans (imminent but vague).

woohoo!!!

Boggles wrote: »

Well actually no it isn't.

In terms of the final report into the downing of the flight, all factors that lead to the plane crashing including circumstances up to and surrounding it will be included.

Like I said previously it is usually an unfortunate series of events that leads to the downing of civilian aircraft.

The assassination of the Iranian general is certainly a factor.

We'll agree to disagree then.

Boggles

woohoo!!! wrote: »

We'll agree to disagree then.

It's not me you are disagreeing with TBF.

The facts have to be laid out in the final report, it's the only way they can issue safety recommendations to try and prevent it in the future.

perrito caliente

woohoo!!! wrote: »

This is 100% on the Iranians, the airplane, no one else. Their trigger finger/bad training, their cover up, their only admitting when Canada and Ukraine put pressure on given multiple deaths of their citizens.

At the same time, the near war situation, a separate issue, is mostly on Trump. Any general, and head of special forces etc, for any country is now fair game for assasination under the fig leaf of terrorist plotting terror re international law.

The Iranian military is responsible for an accident, a systems failure.

The US, through it's terrorising of the Iranian people (an illegal strike followed by threatening and bellicose language from the US president insinuating that war is close at hand) is responsible for the situation. It is the situation which allowed the accident to happen. Something of this nature was bound to happen when you have a big guy in a room threatening and intimidating a small guy.

perrito caliente

Curious_Case wrote: »

Beautiful place !

http://icrom.ir/registration-and-travel/about-tehran/

I'm aware. Some of my friends went hiking in Iran a few years ago. But it doesn't change the fact that their military is not a match for the US, particularly when you take into account their cronies in Israel, Britain, France etc.

Nijmegen

Boggles wrote: »

Well actually no it isn't.

In terms of the final report into the downing of the flight, all factors that lead to the plane crashing including circumstances up to and surrounding it will be included.

Like I said previously it is usually an unfortunate series of events that leads to the downing of civilian aircraft.

The assassination of the Iranian general is certainly a factor.

I tend to disagree on the basis that on the night itself, Iran went to high military alert because they were firing missiles into Iraq. To go to high alert but not to alter their posture towards civilian flights in the airspace affected - business as usual - they made a conscious decision that saw this airliner flying in extremely dangerous airspace. That’s the decision that directly led to this accidental shoot down rather than other events that led to the scenario arising. They could have grounded flights that night as a precaution given the defence posture they were taking, but chose not to.

LillySV

Curious_Case wrote: »

Beautiful place !

http://icrom.ir/registration-and-travel/about-tehran/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q57UpK7Cokk&feature=share

Spook_ie

woohoo!!! wrote: »

This is 100% on the Iranians, the airplane, no one else. Their trigger finger/bad training, their cover up, their only admitting when Canada and Ukraine put pressure on given multiple deaths of their citizens.

At the same time, the near war situation, a separate issue, is mostly on Trump. Any general, and head of special forces etc, for any country is now fair game for assasination under the fig leaf of terrorist plotting terror re international law.

But wouldn't the heightened tension caused by Trumps trumpeting and tweeting of ready to target 52 targets etc. Within Iran not have played a part in a missile unit being on high alert.

The Vincennes incident was primarily caused by the crew being over trigger happy from being on alert.

MeMen2_MoRi_

The plane was flying too close to an Iranian military base is the reasoning for the plane to be shot down? Why the fcuk do you have a military base so close to a civilian airport? Why were flights not delayed? This is a huge huge mistake by the Iranians fcuking hell! They go from not wanting to kill Americans (fore warning what bases would be targeted) to shooting down a civilian airplane.

Homelander

Pretty pitiful from people trying to argue that the US is partially to blame for Iran shooting down the airline. It's a colossal screw-up by their military and 100% on them, should not have happened no matter what the context.

Boggles

Nijmegen wrote: »

I tend to disagree on the basis that on the night itself, Iran went to high military alert because they were firing missiles into Iraq. To go to high alert but not to alter their posture towards civilian flights in the airspace affected - business as usual - they made a conscious decision that saw this airliner flying in extremely dangerous airspace. That’s the decision that directly led to this accidental shoot down rather than other events that led to the scenario arising. They could have grounded flights that night as a precaution given the defence posture they were taking, but chose not to.

An investigation won't just look at the night in question.

Homelander wrote: »

Pretty pitiful from people trying to argue that the US is partially to blame for Iran shooting down the airline. It's a colossal screw-up by their military and 100% on them, should not have happened no matter what the context.

"Blame" is moot.

Facts is all that matters.

charlie14

smurfjed wrote: »

@Charlie14.

I gave up waiting on your response, so posted a picture of that document in post 338.

Apologies if I kept you up waiting for a reply. The simple explanation is, it was late, I am working today and and did not see it until earlier today at which time I replied.

Whether you wish to believe it or not, I find attempting to read ever post here mind numbing. Especially those from some of the guesswork conspiracy theorists here, that I did not see your post 338 until with you mentioning it.
If it was posted to inform me of Doc. 9756 there was no need. I am well aware of it, as I said in my last reply to your inquiry. In fact in that reply I mentioned that Doc.9156 - Accident/Incident Reporting Manual should also be adhered too.

My problem with all the speculation and cover-up theories was that they were needless chatter. As far as I could see The Iranian Civil Aviation Authority were adhering to the provisions laid down in ICAO Annex 13 and like any other such Civil Aviation Authority crash investigating team, we should wait for their report.

You may disagree, that is your prerogative, but as someone who personally knew some of the crew of Irish Coast Guard Rescue 116, where we are still waiting almost 3 years later for a final report on the incident, I found the ill informed speculation by some here unseemly.

By the way, just so there is no confusion, as you actually appear to know what you are talking about, any reference to ill informed speculation theorists does not include you.

Curious_Case

LillySV wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q57UpK7Cokk&feature=share

I take your point

No evolution of collective consciousness is to be expected, under any circumstances, within any timeframe.

On the other hand, the bilateral climb-down that we've all witnessed, could be interpreted as a step forward.