Flight 752 brought down by Iran - mod warning in |OP

Boggles

tuxy wrote: »

That's why I said they should wait before handing out the medals so as not to anger the international community.

Personally don't think they should get medals at all, but that could just be me.

tuxy

Gatling wrote: »

First Iranians to shoot down an aircraft since the Iran /Iraq war .


It's quite possible.



What medals did the US navy give out

The USS Vincennes shot down Iran Air Flight 655 killing 290 people in 1988. All crew of the USS Vincennes were given Combat Action Ribbons and the air-warfare coordinator received the Navy Commendation Medal.

The US claimed at first that it had not fired on the airliner but later admitted fault.

the_syco

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

IThe operator had to react fast, and believing they were under attack; he launched missiles at the approaching object. 

The TOR system is a system that is used during war. The screen is a fairly basic system that shows targets.

Cheerful Spring2

New York Times claims Flight 752 transponder stopped working 30 seconds before the missile hit. They don't know why yet?

https://twitter.com/trbrtc/status/1216493033278996480

https://twitter.com/trbrtc/status/1216494880869900288

New York Times map.

Last signal: plane transponder stopped working at 6.15am

And the impact from the missile we know about is at another location at 6.15.30 (seconds)

The experts will figure it out.

Manic Moran

tuxy wrote: »

The USS Vincennes shot down Iran Air Flight 655 killing 290 people in 1988. All crew of the USS Vincennes were given Combat Action Ribbons and the air-warfare coordinator received the Navy Commendation Medal.

The US claimed at first that it had not fired on the airliner but later admitted fault.

None of those were awarded for the Vincennes shootdown. The CARs were earned by default for the surface action. Similarly the citation for the weapons officer talks about the gunboat engagement, not the Airbus incident. Navy Commendations aren’t exactly a high level award either.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

They can fly at both high and low altitude.

I haven’t offhand found any verification of this. Everything so far says Tomahawks fly low (as do any videos of the things). It also would be a very strange thing to do even if it were possible. The earlier quote refers to cruise missiles overall. Missiles such as Sandbox do, indeed, fly high, but they are an entirely different role of cruise missile.

tuxy

Manic Moran wrote: »

None of those were awarded for the Vincennes shootdown. The CARs were earned by default for the surface action. Similarly the citation for the weapons officer talks about the gunboat engagement, not the Airbus incident. Navy Commendations aren’t exactly a high level award either.

Yes awarded for a tour of duty where they killed hundreds of innocent civilians, awarding low level awards does not make their actions acceptable.

That said, they had to award medals since the US refused to take responsibility for the incident.

Iran Air Flight 655 was on a standard flight path just like Ukrainian Flight 752. Iran have taken a very unusual approach by accepting blame. Precedent from other countries(US, Russia) has shown that this is not something that should be done.

Curious_Case

Gatling wrote: »

Shooting down - it was not a crash

If someone strangles a pilot who is flying a plane, and that pilot subsequently dies, and the plane subsequently crashes

Would you say "that's not a crash, it's a strangulation" ???

accensi0n

Curious_Case wrote: »

If someone strangles a pilot who is flying a plane, and that pilot subsequently dies, and the plane subsequently crashes

Would you say "that's not a crash, it's a strangulation" ???

No, but I would say that's a bad comparison.

cameramonkey

Manic Moran wrote: »

I haven’t offhand found any verification of this. Everything so far says Tomahawks fly low (as do any videos of the things). It also would be a very strange thing to do even if it were possible. The earlier quote refers to cruise missiles overall. Missiles such as Sandbox do, indeed, fly high, but they are an entirely different role of cruise missile.

Tomahawks are launched in different ways. The air launched version is deployed from pretty high so it would for some stages of flight be at high altitude. This video shows it cruising at what looks like a few thousand feet.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu03xx2o_vs

Curious_Case

accensi0n wrote: »

No, but I would say that's a bad comparison.

But it's also a case of "cause & effect"

My comparison relied on some unforeseen circumstance "causing" a plane to crash and "pilot incapacitation" seemed a plausible "cause".

In both cases, one event led to another . . .

therefore they BOTH happened.

I appreciate that you may have a better comparison in mind.

Gatling

Curious_Case wrote: »

Would you say "that's not a crash, it's a strangulation" ???

That would be a crash .

Two surface to air missile's hitting a civilian airliner is a shoot down .
Not a crash

McGiver

USA-Iran 1:1

RIP to the victims but the above stands. Quite a few parallels between Flight 655 and Flight 752.

Fun fact - medals were awarded to the crew of the ship who shot down 655 (in error as per US version of the story).

McGiver

752 was shot down in error just hours after Iran shot retaliatory missiles to Iraq and had been expecting a ballistic response from the US. I don't think it would happen if this was not the case. It's very similar to Flight 655 where tensions were high and hence error was made.

It's apparent that Trump's aggressive language and US elimination of Soleimani lead to this event. Obviously both sides are guilty, but if there was no assassination, there would be no retaliation and no high alert...it's as simple as that.

Snow Garden

humberklog wrote: »

I don't think they care how they look.

Iran sent a clear message to who mattered (USA) and it was received and understood.

Au contraire. The Iranians are a proud people and will be highly embarrassed and annoyed.
The nonsense US casualty numbers,the funeral stampede and the downed airplane make them look like idiots.

Curious_Case

Gatling wrote: »

That would be a crash .

Two surface to air missile's hitting a civilian airliner is a shoot down .
Not a crash

Surprisingly enough, I can see your point : )

I know, it shouldn't be a surprise !

Gatling

McGiver wrote: »

Fun fact - medals were awarded to the crew of the ship who shot down 655 (in error as per US version of the story).

Ribbons and one medal issued for 4 year service in a certain position( open to correction)

Compare the scores with Russia who are in a league of their own for shooting civilian airliners,

McGiver

Gatling wrote: »

Ribbons and one medal issued for 4 year service in a certain position( open to correction)

Compare the scores with Russia who are in a league of their own for shooting civilian airliners,

The Russians are appalling no doubt. I'm anti-Putin and anti-Russian-imperialism. Don't worry. But the US are no better, that's the point.

EDIT: In other words, criticism of interventionist US foreign policy doesn't mean the person is pro-Russian or pro-Iran! US involvement in the Middle East only made things worse, starting with toppling Shah in Iran. But most importantly later adventures from 80s onwards. And on the contrary they should have intervened in Syria (with UN approval or as part of UN operation and/or leading a UN coalition) but didn't and let the bloody civil war going for a decade, you know because no strategic interest there. That was the only conflict worth intervening,

humberklog

Snow Garden wrote: »

Au contraire. The Iranians are a proud people and will be highly embarrassed and annoyed.
The nonsense US casualty numbers,the funeral stampede and the downed airplane make them look like idiots.

By "Iran" i meant the Iranian governent.

tuxy

Gatling wrote: »

Ribbons and one medal issued for 4 year service in a certain position( open to correction)

Compare the scores with Russia who are in a league of their own for shooting civilian airliners,

Yes and as part of that service they were responsible for hundreds of civilian deaths.
It is complicated though, since none of the civilian on flight 655 were American perhaps it was considered acceptable collateral.

I do agree that Iran and the US are comparable on such incidents the difference being that Iran took responsibility. Russia's record is worse.

Fonny122

tuxy wrote: »

It is complicated though, since none of the civilian on flight 655 were American perhaps it was considered acceptable collateral. .

That is one of the major issues with the concept of American Exceptionalism, for many of them they see it as "American Supremacy" (similar to white supremacy, black supremacy, etc), whereby an American life is priceless, but the lives and livelihoods of others really just doesn't matter in the scheme of things. The sheer lack of care about the hundreds of thousands they have killed, especially in the last 18 or so years, is an example of this.

Now with all nations killing your own citizens is typically viewed as being more atrocious than killing those of another, but to be frank with a lot of Americans it appears that the deaths of non Americans is simply just of no consequence, something which I would also be really interested to read up on in terms of Hollywood's impact (the girlfriend made me sit through a movie called Red Sparrow over the weekend, Jesus Christ I thought the military propaganda movies died out in the mid/late 90s?) and the lack of any wars on their own domestic front.

Its quite scary, but to many of them it seems to be seen as little more than a reality tv action movie whereby several hundred dead civilians on a flight is little more than a plot twist. There also seem to be traces of it in the ultra nationalist One China movement that has been pushed in recent years (and involves much more than just unifying Taiwan, HK, Tibet etc with the PROC).

old_aussie

The crocodile tears have dried up for Soleimani. That was quick considering he was the most loved Iranian.

Now Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, you know the "Supreme Leader", is again killing Iranian citizens.

This is what you get when you let an islamic psycho run the country.

https://www.theage.com.au/world/middle-east/protesters-shot-beaten-in-iran-as-general-pleads-for-forgiveness-20200113-p53r2z.html

A billboard in downtown Tehran that had displayed a photo of Soleimani was taken down.

In its place was a black banner with the names of the victims and a verse about grief. In Tabriz and Tehran, some protesters could be seen tearing up photos of Soleimani that had been hanging from poles.

Despite the heavy security presence, large crowds turned out. In many places, they chanted caustic slogans. Some denounced the country's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, which is a capital offense in Iran.

"The supreme leader is a murderer; his regime is obsolete," demonstrators chanted in Azadi Square in Tehran.

Some denounced the country's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, which is a capital offense in Iran.

Fonny122

I think something that seems to be lost on both the left and right side of the debate re Soleimani funeral and the reaction, is that it is highly likely that a lot of those people were not there to mourn him, rather than to protest the US essentially committing one of their war crimes against Iran.

If a key member of a very unpopular Irish government was targeted and killed by British forces while in say, France, there would also be a lot of Irish people in the streets over it. But that wouldn't necessarily be a ringing endorsement of said political figure.

notobtuse

Fonny122 wrote: »

That is one of the major issues with the concept of American Exceptionalism, for many of them they see it as "American Supremacy" (similar to white supremacy, black supremacy, etc), whereby an American life is priceless, but the lives and livelihoods of others really just doesn't matter in the scheme of things. The sheer lack of care about the hundreds of thousands they have killed, especially in the last 18 or so years, is an example of this.

Now with all nations killing your own citizens is typically viewed as being more atrocious than killing those of another, but to be frank with a lot of Americans it appears that the deaths of non Americans is simply just of no consequence, something which I would also be really interested to read up on in terms of Hollywood's impact (the girlfriend made me sit through a movie called Red Sparrow over the weekend, Jesus Christ I thought the military propaganda movies died out in the mid/late 90s?) and the lack of any wars on their own domestic front.

Its quite scary, but to many of them it seems to be seen as little more than a reality tv action movie whereby several hundred dead civilians on a flight is little more than a plot twist. There also seem to be traces of it in the ultra nationalist One China movement that has been pushed in recent years (and involves much more than just unifying Taiwan, HK, Tibet etc with the PROC).

Hmmm… Since the US is filled with such terrible and hateful people I guess there is no need anymore to provide, on average per year (and barring any catastrophic international event which would increase the amount given), some $50 billion to support global peace, security, development efforts, and provide humanitarian relief during times of crisis. And that doesn’t include money from private charitable US organizations. Also, add in some $35 billion, on average, for economic assistance.

Fonny122

notobtuse wrote: »

Hmmm… Since the US is filled with such terrible and hateful people I guess there is no need anymore to provide, on average per year (and barring any catastrophic international event which would increase the amount given), some $50 billion to support global peace, security, development efforts, and provide humanitarian relief during times of crisis. And that doesn’t include money from private charitable US organizations. Also, add in some $35 billion, on average, for economic assistance.

I can't help but notice you didn't address my post at all, and went straight into virtue signalling mode, which is quite telling.

What you are saying is also directly applicable to colonialism from a century ago, including the British in Ireland. To be frank many of these countries would gladly have never received the money or aid in exchange for never having the US meddle with affairs in the first place

notobtuse

Fonny122 wrote: »

I can't help but notice you didn't address my post at all, and went straight into virtue signalling mode, which is quite telling.

What you are saying is also directly applicable to colonialism from a century ago, including the British in Ireland. To be frank many of these countries would gladly have never received the money or aid in exchange for never having the US meddle with affairs in the first place

LOL. I look forward to the day they say... 'thanks, but no thanks.'

Timberrrrrrrr

notobtuse wrote: »

Hmmm… Since the US is filled with such terrible and hateful people I guess there is no need anymore to provide, on average per year (and barring any catastrophic international event which would increase the amount given), some $50 billion to support global peace, security, development efforts, and provide humanitarian relief during times of crisis. And that doesn’t include money from private charitable US organizations. Also, add in some $35 billion, on average, for economic assistance.

Gives $50 Billion to promote peace and security

Spends $2 Trillion on boosting it's war capabilities:pac:

Manic Moran

cameramonkey wrote: »

Tomahawks are launched in different ways. The air launched version is deployed from pretty high so it would for some stages of flight be at high altitude. This video shows it cruising at what looks like a few thousand feet.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu03xx2o_vs

That's AGM-86, the last of the conventional version were retired last year. It's almost 40 years old. The USAF never bought the air-launched version of Tomahawk. https://www.ibtimes.com/usaf-ditches-outdated-cruise-missiles-despite-past-success-it-looks-future-2873257

Regardless, even if the missile were to fly part way at altitude, the whole point of the thing is to sneak in, which is far easier when hugging the earth. It can get lost in ground clutter, or be blocked from radar surveillance. Why would they send it high over enemy airspace? Over the sea, maybe one could understand.

Fonny122

notobtuse wrote: »

LOL. I look forward to the day they say... 'thanks, but no thanks.'

You look forward to the day middle easterners express that they want the US to stop meddling in their affairs? Have you been living under a rock for 40 years or are you just being wilfully ignorant?

Outlaw Pete

New video suggests plane was struck twice:


https://twitter.com/AlArabiya/status/1217142201974755335

Gatling

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

New video suggests plane was struck twice:


https://twitter.com/AlArabiya/status/1217142201974755335

Probably explains the supposed loss of contact earlier than claimed .
I do believe it was claimed 2 were fired at flights 752 ,I noticed on the damage especially the way the upper fuselage looks to have been separated from the rest of the aircraft,
I just hope all on board were already dead before the decent and impact