Apartment Vs House

mariaalice

Cultural ideas about space and privacy have a lot to do with it and possibly something that is difficult for Irish people to understand.

charlietheminxx

mohm.kamal wrote: »

What about the value of the property, take an example of a recession; wouldn't an apartment in D18 next to the LUAS be more attractive for rent or sale than any other house far away?

For rent yes, for sale no - if the last recession is anything to go by. Houses held their value a bit better than apartments. People were also reluctant to commit to purchasing where there would be management fees. A lot of families got stuck in apartments too small for their growth, I think it's one of the reasons many Irish people would go for the bigger property - if you're in serious negative equity and can't sell up, at least it's big enough for your family to live in.

hmmm

mariaalice wrote: »

Cultural ideas about space and privacy have a lot to do with it and possibly something that is difficult for Irish people to understand.

I've just seen this for the first time and it's amazing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_in_Europe

pwurple

Yes, agree on a forum like this, people won't have experienced a childhood in an apartment and the benefits. I live abroad in apartments, and they were perfect for families. Relatively soundproof, well located with good amenities. A nice sense of community. Millions, if not Billions of people raise families in apartments. Done right, they are heat efficient cosy places to live.

The main disadvantage to houses is having to be your own management company, clearing gutters, unblocking drains, painting and maintaining the exterior and and land/access. With an apartment you pay your management fee and it's all done for you.

It's all about location. If it's located where you need it to be, go for it.

mohm.kamal

hmmm wrote: »

I've just seen this for the first time and it's amazing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_in_Europe

Interesting! only 4% lives in apartment here!

charlietheminxx

pwurple wrote: »

Yes, agree on a forum like this, people won't have experienced a childhood in an apartment and the benefits. I live abroad in apartments, and they were perfect for families. Relatively soundproof, well located with good amenities. A nice sense of community. Millions, if not Billions of people raise families in apartments. Done right, they are heat efficient cosy places to live.

The problem is that Ireland's apartments often aren't done right for family living. It's something we have to work on, and it will be needed in the future, but seeing problems with existing apartment developments in Dublin would put me right off. We have a lot to learn about proper apartment construction and corresponding amenities.

Idbatterim

oh yeah certainly, its Irish apartments that are the problem. totally different kettle of fish on the continent!

dancingqueen

mohm.kamal wrote: »

Sorry for the silly question; What is the advantage of a house over apartment other than more space and backyard? and what's the disadvantages of an apartment?

Our upstairs neighbours have a 15 year old boy sharing a room with his 3 year old sister. We can hear their chats, we can hear them go to the bathroom and we can hear their child screaming 24 hours a day. When someone leaves the block all the doors slam, wakes kids up, kids playing in corridors, people coming home late - banging doors, paper thin walls, bad insulation, the list goes on.

It is a bad idea to raise kids in apartments. For the kids, and for everyone else in the block too.

Regarding management fees, a lot of new estates have them, but often less than an apartment that might have a lift etc to be maintained & common areas cleaned. I live in an apartment as a single occupier and it is great to be able to so easily lock up, go away, and not worry too much about security. The estate where I live is a mix of housing and apartments, and all pay a fairly hefty management fee for the good level of landscape maintenance.

LirW

Idbatterim wrote: »

oh yeah certainly, its Irish apartments that are the problem. totally different kettle of fish on the continent!

That was my point earlier on, apartments planned right into a traditionally house-heavy society and many with the prospect of renting out.
If I'd have the choice I'd pick an apartment any day if the spec is right. Like my grandparents apartments, a solid 60s build, 95sqm and 2 bedrooms (my dad was an only child), it's an amazing apartment with loads of space and convenience, built in an area where it is the norm.

I think it's a huge issue that there aren't many 3bed apartments to begin with, the apartments don't come with appropriate storage units, sinking funds are a big problem, no family-friendly infrastructure for kids to bond and hang out or conveniently taking the kids to the playground. I'm not a believer in the whole "kids need a garden" narrative.
When spending 400k on it, the decision should just be as informed as possible. If a 90sqm 2bed is working for OPs family is up to them at the end of the day, I know many families that make it work with bigger kids, no problem.

Anyway, to answer OPs question:
Anything close to the Luas will always be sought after, if not for private individuals, then from investors. Since it is a new-build and nobody knows yet how the complex will establish itself, that is an uncertain factor.
Apartments probably don't hold value as well as a 4bed house with garden in a settled area but there are so many variables, it's hard to say.

Commute is a very valid point to be concerned about, it was the main reason for us to leave Dublin in the first place and a huge factor of why I don't fancy going back even if I'd have the money.

OP, where do you work? People can maybe make other suggestions within your budget if we know where you have to go.

dancingqueen

dancingqueen wrote: »

Our upstairs neighbours have a 15 year old boy sharing a room with his 3 year old sister. We can hear their chats, we can hear them go to the bathroom and we can hear their child screaming 24 hours a day. When someone leaves the block all the doors slam, wakes kids up, kids playing in corridors, people coming home late - banging doors, paper thin walls, bad insulation, the list goes on.

It is a bad idea to raise kids in apartments. For the kids, and for everyone else in the block too.

A decent quality development will have good heat & sound insulation. In a lot of European cities children are raised perfectly successfully in apartments. It’s shoddy Tiger development in Ireland that has given them a bad reputation. My last neighbours where I live were a family of lively young boys, no sound issues from them.

awec

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Location, location, location.

Bad advice IMO.

People say location trumps everything because problems with a house can usually be fixed with renovations, extensions etc.

This does not apply to an apartment.

OP - I would not like to live as a family of 4 in a 2 bed Irish apartment. You will go insane. In reality, 2 bed apartments here are designed for 2 people.

pwurple

charlietheminxx wrote: »

The problem is that Ireland's apartments often aren't done right for family living. It's something we have to work on, and it will be needed in the future, but seeing problems with existing apartment developments in Dublin would put me right off. We have a lot to learn about proper apartment construction and corresponding amenities.

I think you are mostly correct, but this is slowly changing. There are some apartment blocks which are built for families I don't specifically know about the apartment the OP is looking at, but take this one for example
https://theelysian.ie/
An acre of interior parkland, all soundproofed, some parking, a supermarket and doctors practice on the ground floor.

I've lived in an apartment myself in ireland for years which was a former cinema and fully soundproofed to that level.

dancingqueen

Deleted User wrote: »

A decent quality development will have good heat & sound insulation. In a lot of European cities children are raised perfectly successfully in apartments. It’s shoddy Tiger development in Ireland that has given them a bad reputation. My last neighbours where I live were a family of lively young boys, no sound issues from them.

Lucky you. We live below the devil incarnated. Every time her mother goes out on the balcony for a cigarette she wallops the door and screams until she goes back in. She roars in the night, she throws things down on top of us, she screams outside our door... I can't even tell you the extent of it. We are wits end to be honest. Apartment living is not for everyone. We are looking at getting out ASAP (when the needle in the haystack finally shows up)

Idbatterim

dancingqueen wrote: »

Lucky you. We live below the devil incarnated. Every time her mother goes out on the balcony for a cigarette she wallops the door and screams until she goes back in. She roars in the night, she throws things down on top of us, she screams outside our door... I can't even tell you the extent of it. We are wits end to be honest. Apartment living is not for everyone. We are looking at getting out ASAP (when the needle in the haystack finally shows up)

exactly the same issues I have had, hell on earth. some apartments will be a lot better than others. But I wouldnt touch one, unless I had no other choice.

Tiddlypeeps

mohm.kamal wrote: »

Interesting! only 4% lives in apartment here!

The Irish hate apartments, it's a combination of factors. Firstly there is a stigma attached to apartments in general, this likely stems back to the first major apartment projects in the country being social housing which turned out to be disastrous. Secondly there is a bit of a feedback loop due to this lack of interest, builders don't know how to build apartments well in this country which results in even less interest so it's difficult for progress to be made in this area.



It's possible building quality has gone up in the last number of years, but it certainly used to be that apartment walls were made of paper. Zero effort was often put in to sound proofing. I live in an apartment in Toronto and I can't hear a peep from any of my neighbours and my bedroom wall is connected to an apartment with a new born baby so it's not like I'm just lucky to have quiet neighbours. In contrast I've been in many Irish apartments where you can literally hear the people next door or upstairs talking, never mind doing anything actually loud. If you search the history of the accommodation forum you will find many threads of people trying to deal with noisy neighbours and almost losing their minds. The neighbours weren't even necessarily that bad, but sound passing through an unsound proofed floor/ceiling is almost amplified to the apartment below.


Even if you end up blessed with quiet neighbours the fact you have kids, who will inevitably be relatively loud, you could have neighbours pretty much harassing you to keep it down. You end up either walking on egg shells and limiting your children playing or you put up with being constantly nagged by a neighbour.


Saying that, people who have these kinds of negative experiences are likely in the minority but it's still a big risk to take with a purchase as large as it is.

mirrorwall14

The only way I’d buy an apartment in Ireland is if I had lived for an extended period in the block itself so I’d know what I was getting into. Particularly in relation to sound proofing

Marcusm

mohm.kamal wrote: »

Thank you all for all the replies. One last concern, don't you share with me that the traffic will be heavily congested in the coming years? Taking into consideration young professionals like me who are relocating everyday to Ireland, especially Dublin?


In my country we're 17 millions in the city, but it's a totally different story. We have 5 subway lines, hundreds of bridges and tunnels and I don't think it would be feasible to have the same setup here in Dublin at least in the coming 10 years.



I do have a big concern towards commuting, I just was wasting around ~3hrs of my day everyday in the car because of congestion and don't want to repeat this again, so having an apartment next to the LUAS isn't a big advantage?

And these are the critical points. You need to weigh up the additional time away from your family to accommodate your commute. I can give an (extreme) example from a colleague (Irish) in London. They lived in a (very nice) 2 bed apartment of no more than 70sq m up to their third child - the eldest was 5 at this stage - prior to moving to a 300 sq m (yes, 3500 sq ft) house to be near to where that child (and eventually all 4 of those children) would go to primary school. There’s no need to conform to the nativist desire for a 3 bed semi if you do so does not agree with how you want to live your life. Does your wife/husband/partner want to be separated from you for and additional 2-3 hours a day to have a small garden which many people don’t use.

Suit yourself, not what suits other people.

Mad_maxx

I'd happily live in an apartment in a prime location if it cost no more than a house in a lesser location, other half would never agree however

mohm.kamal

Thank you all for your feedback, all your replies were very helpful and I'm grateful for this

Muahahaha

I think Irish apartments have some way to go before they are family friendly. For one 3 bed apartments here are rare but you would need one if a family has two kids. Instead what few 3 beds there are tend to be penthouses with large terraces at big prices out of reach for many families.

The other problem for families in apartments would be storage, as kids get older you accumulate more stuff and will quickly run out of space to store it. Apartments on the continent often have a cage or small room in the car park which is designated to each apartment owner who can then store things like kids bikes, camping gear, kayaks, etc in it. We dont seem to have any of that here, if we did it would completely solve the problems of storage in Irish apartments.

The other disadvantage is the management fees. While a house obviously costs money to maintain I would question the rates that management companies are charging. I've a mate in Dundrum paying an annual 2,400 management so over 30 years it will cost him 72,000 in fees. I just cant see a regular 3 bed house costing 72k to maintain the outside over the same time period. Maybe if you were really unlucky and the roof blew off it would but for most it would not come near that figure. IMO apartment owners here are ripped off in what they are paying out in fees but people dont seem to be bothered to do anything about it so it continues on.

Muahahaha

Muahahaha wrote: »

I think Irish apartments have some way to go before they are family friendly. For one 3 bed apartments here are rare but you would need one if a family has two kids. Instead what few 3 beds there are tend to be penthouses with large terraces at big prices out of reach for many families.

The other problem for families in apartments would be storage, as kids get older you accumulate more stuff and will quickly run out of space to store it. Apartments on the continent often have a cage or small room in the car park which is designated to each apartment owner who can then store things like kids bikes, camping gear, kayaks, etc in it. We dont seem to have any of that here, if we did it would completely solve the problems of storage in Irish apartments.

The other disadvantage is the management fees. While a house obviously costs money to maintain I would question the rates that management companies are charging. I've a mate in Dundrum paying an annual 2,400 management so over 30 years it will cost him 72,000 in fees. I just cant see a regular 3 bed house costing 72k to maintain the outside over the same time period. Maybe if you were really unlucky and the roof blew off it would but for most it would not come near that figure. IMO apartment owners here are ripped off in what they are paying out in fees but people dont seem to be bothered to do anything about it so it continues on.

Indeed my management fees are in that region, not too far from your friend. I’ve a two bedroom, 920 SM, which included a small storeroom between kitchen & ensuite. The fee covers the maintenance of common areas, window cleaning, unlimited waste disposal , bi-annual skip for disposal of any unwanted large items, elevator, street lighting, and a very beautifully landscaped park area with fountains, and a remotely monitored security system

When I lived in an old semi-d I had no management fees. However I had to put lots of money into gutters, old lath & plaster ceiling falling down & lots of stuff like like. I had to pay for all the waste disposal, maybe hire a small skip every two years, house insurance as opposed to modest contents insurance in the apartment. That older home was much more expensive to heat. Burglar alarm ministering was a cost. It had a reasonably sized garden into which I sank a tremendous amount of money. So for me it’s a matter of swings and roundabouts. I haven’t sat down to cost it all out but I would reckon there’s no so much difference between living in a suburban house and a good quality apartment.

Most of the many apartments on my estate are two-bedrooms. A minority are one-bedroomed or three-bedroomed.

Another thing, a consideration for would-be pet owners, so few apartment complexes permit dogs etc, whereas on the continent pets in apartments are the norm. I moved to my apartment for the very reason that pets are permitted and indeed there’s a dog waste disposal bin. you don’t hear the dogs barking except maybe when they are coming out the door for a walk with their owners. The estate was designed with family life in mind.

When searching for an apartment to buy I looked at potentially suitable properties in various developments in south Dublin suburbs. There was only my elderly mother & myself, so it had to bed two-bedroomed. We came across a selection of excellent 3-bedrooms ones with full-sized kitchens and were tempted as the extra bedroom would have been a hobby room. Tempted as I was, the one near the Luas won out. The estate won an award for being then best model of such an estate in the country.

Idle Passerby

mohm.kamal wrote: »

Yeah, the coming baby is a boy, but my kid is only 5 now, so I suppose they can share the room for the next, like 6, 7 years?

An 11-12 year old girl shouldn't have to share a room with a boy, she will be developing by then and will want and deserve to have privacy.