concern for child

KiKi III

Paedophiles often come up with a pretext for spending time alone with children in order to groom them.

Tom Humphreys is a prime example.

There is no suggestion that this man is a paedophile, but it is entirely reasonable that he would go through Garda vetting if he’s a formal volunteer supporting the class.

If he’s not, he shouldn’t be there.

I care more about protecting kids than I do about bruising men’s egos (and any women involved should obviously also be vetted)

KiKi III

KiKi III wrote: »

I care more about protecting kids than I do about bruising men’s egos (and any women involved should obviously also be vetted)

You are, whether deliberately or otherwise, conflating someone having a bruised ego with potentially ruining their life by implying they are a paedophile. Losing your job, having posters put up or your photo shared on Facebook is a little more than a bruised ego. People get murdered over this kind of stuff.

GhostofKNugget

KiKi III wrote: »

Paedophiles often come up with a pretext for spending time alone with children in order to groom them.

Tom Humphreys is a prime example.

There is no suggestion that this man is a paedophile, but it is entirely reasonable that he would go through Garda vetting if he’s a formal volunteer supporting the class.

If he’s not, he shouldn’t be there.

I care more about protecting kids than I do about bruising men’s egos (and any women involved should obviously also be vetted)

The guy sits in the background on his phone while he waits for his partner to finish up her lesson. Nowhere in the original post does it suggest that he is ever alone with the children or is trying to find some pretence to be alone with them. Beyond helping to move props, he seems to have no other interaction with the class.

It's not just about bruising male egos, insinuations of impropriety with children is something that a man would never be able to escape. It would have a devastating effect on their life.

Wheety

If I haven't made myself clear in the couple of posts I've made, I don't think this guy is doing anything wrong. He doesn't seem to have alone time with the kids. And just because he's a man doesn't mean he wants to abuse kids.

But why are some posters thinking that Garda vetting is a licence to be allowed spend time with kids alone? It's ridiculous. The vast vast majority of people (I'm not singling out men here) are not Garda vetted and would do nothing inappropriate with kids. There will also be some people with Garda vetting who do have wrong intentions.

Garda vetting just means the person hasn't been caught yet.

Hyzepher

it is quite possible that there wouldn't be a class without him present. Many adults now will not be alone with kids, vetted or not. They would be leaving themselves open to false allegations etc.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Uneasy about a harmless fella harmlessly sitting there on his phone? Whole thing smacks of misandry, and trolling

Are we calling little girls misandrists now? I don’t think the man needs to get banished but the source of the girl’s unease needs to be figured out and I doubt man-hating is the cause. Children can get freaked out by all sorts of things. Some of those things can seem illogical to an adult but make sense to the child.

hots

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Are we calling little girls misandrists now? I don’t think the man needs to get banished but the source of the girl’s disease needs to be figured out and I doubt man-hating is the cause. Children can get freaked out by all sorts of things. Some of those things can seem illogical to an adult but make sense to the child.

unease for a second I thought I'd missed a whole part of the story!

Bombaby1974

TheBoyConor wrote: »

You could write a letter to the garda vetting authorities and express a concern that you are worried that there is a potentially unvetted adult male with access to children.

reaslistically, he has no business in there while there are children there. He should be waiting somewhere else and move the gear in and out when there is no-one in the room before and after the class. It is unacceptable that he would be there looking on when there is no need for him to be. Can't be too careful these days.

But does he "Have access to children" or is he just in the same room? If he was being left on his won with the kids and wasn't vetted then perhaps this would be cause for concern. As it is he just seems to be minding his own business and helping move gear around.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

hots wrote: »

unease for a second I thought I'd missed a whole part of the story!

Oops! Thanks for highlighting the typo.

AulWan

Hyzepher wrote: »

it is quite possible that there wouldn't be a class without him present. Many adults now will not be alone with kids, vetted or not. They would be leaving themselves open to false allegations etc.

And after reading some of the responses on this thread we can see just how quickly and easily some persons could jump to making false allegations.

Talk of gathering other mothers to write letters etc? Even the language used is accusatory skulking at the back of the room, etc. Absolutely crazy stuff.

If the OP has this kind of mindset then it is no surprise their child turns out to be uncomfortable around adult men.

Goldengirl

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Why is that? Do you have the same issue with male teachers?

You seem to have a problem with this.
The rules are there to protect children from abuse, which was allowed go unchecked up to a few years ago. Why would anyone object to that?
And the discussion whether male or female is irrelevant , ALL have to be vetted now.
All adults supervising activities or having access to any child have to be garda vetted. Even teens on work experience are vetted now.

I would be talking to my daughter to see why she is uneasy.The guy needs to cop on , hanging around children who may be scantily clad , with a mobile phone!
People are not allowed film their kids' plays or GAA matches anymore, and while to some, this may seem like overkill , it is with good reason.
If I were the op I would ask the dance teacher what the rules about unvetted adults hanging around while class is on and if an appropriate response is not forthcoming I would withdraw my child and report the dance school for not complying with regulations.
This is regulated by Children First legislation,and one reports to gardaí, Tusla or HSE .
This is a serious issue. The teacher may think her guy is lovely and helpful , but why would he be hanging around? This is well known grooming behaviour , and while he might be perfectly innocent , he and his girlfriend are being stupid or are very naive.
Why would she endanger her business just so he can stay warm ? He could go elsewhere to wait until the class is over.
Anyone running classes or teaching knows that Child Protection is first and foremost the most important policy to enforce, or they will be very quickly shutdown.
The question to be asked is why would she not know this?

I know lots of parents who would be uneasy and maybe the child has picked up on that.
Her uneasiness may be out of proportion,but having worked in this area, it is not good advice or practice to tell any to ignore their instincts.
And the reality is all children need protection make or female , and the lesson to be learned is by the adults who are involved , not to put it on the children in the first place., and use some common sense.
I can't believe that some posters here think that the little girl should be banned from dance class because her mother requests what is essentially a safe environment?
The op is a mother who's doing all the right things here ,not ignoring her child or this situation, and she has a right to ensure that all is well .

Wheety

Goldengirl, if the teacher was asked and confirmed this guy is Garda vetted, does that change everything?

Goldengirl

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Being made to feel uncomfortable by a man. But we don't know the full story. It is quite possible that she has been abused or raped in the past and this is the reason for her nervousness. It would be wrong and victim blaming if she were asked to leave.

I agree with all you have said.
However someone need not have a history to feel uncomfortable.
She is not a victim but also should not have to feel uncomfortable. Terrible to think they have not come to this conclusion themselves.
Shows a real disregard or consideration of the pupils right to privacy.

jlm29

Goldengirl wrote: »

Shows a real disregard or consideration of the pupils right to privacy.

Everyone has a right to privacy true enough in some scenarios, but if 5 dads of five other kids headed in to watch the class, and that made the girl uncomfortable, should they be asked to leave? If the OP (I can’t remember if they’re male or female) goes to watch a class and makes another child uncomfortable, should they have to sit out in their car?
It’s a musical theatre class, they put on a performance for all the parents at the end of the term, she’ll have to get used to people watching her. If she can’t, maybe she should consider changing her extra curricular activity to suit her personality. I’m not saying they should open the doors and invite every tom dick and Harry in, but this guy seems to Have a (somewhat minor, but possibly very important) role to play in the group. If she wants to dance in private let her do it at home in front of the mirror, and not in a group setting where there’s likely to be people coming and going.
Anyhow. The OP has vanished.

SusieBlue

Goldengirl wrote: »

I agree with all you have said.
However someone need not have a history to feel uncomfortable.
She is not a victim but also should not have to feel uncomfortable. Terrible to think they have not come to this conclusion themselves.
Shows a real disregard or consideration of the pupils right to privacy.

And helping your child deal with those feelings in a healthy, constructive way is your responsibility as a parent.
It’s terrible she feels uncomfortable, but that isn’t anyone else’s fault. That’s her own issue to deal with.
Taking away the trigger is not the solution.
You cannot expect people who have done nothing wrong to cater to the whims & sensitivities of a child they have done nothing to upset.
It just isn’t reasonable & it sets a bad example & precedent for their future.
Dealing with uncomfortable situations we don’t want to be in is something that we all go through that can’t be avoided. It’s just life.

Goldengirl

JustAThought wrote: »

as has already been repeatedly pointed out he does NOT have to have garda vetting as it is a private arrangement for the childs benefit. Go back and follow the citizen advice link posted snd read the link to the EXCLUSIONS for children.

this is exactly the kind of innuendo and verbal offal that ruins lives. but I guess you’re posting it as hyperbolae to make your point?

A private arrangement means a grind or private lesson. It does not apply to dance schools , music schools even if only one or two classes.
Everyone volunteering or supervising in these circumstances needs garda vetting.

Goldengirl

SusieBlue wrote: »

And helping your child deal with those feelings in a healthy, constructive way is your responsibility as a parent.
It’s terrible she feels uncomfortable, but that isn’t anyone else’s fault. That’s her own issue to deal with.
Taking away the trigger is not the solution.
You cannot expect people who have done nothing wrong to cater to the whims & sensitivities of a child they have done nothing to upset.
It just isn’t reasonable & it sets a bad example & precedent for their future.
Dealing with uncomfortable situations we don’t want to be in is something that we all go through that can’t be avoided. It’s just life.

I disagree with that . There are many things which adults / parents do to cater to whims etc as you put it , others would say to cater to a child's needs in an age appropriate way!

The child feels uneasy. Why do you assume nothing untoward has happened?
This man or anyone else in this situation should be shown to be above reproach ,if nothing else.
At the very least nobody running a business involving children should allow any situation where any child , sensitive or not , feels uncomfortable.
Bad for business.

A lot of posters seem happy to ignore children's feelings because of " the poor man on the phone".
He is not a parent waiting for his child.
I have attended occasions as a parent waiting, where all phones were banned , at karate ,GAA, music , swimming , school plays,and so on . I do not take offence . It is upsetting that because of the RISK that some people may take pleasure in pictures of other people's children, that our personal rights are infringed upon . But there it is, its not very nice , but when you have children you have to face that uncomfortable fact , and we have to accept that reality.

This legislation and child protection is there so these same children don't have to deal with uncomfortable situations. Why should they?
Why should the child be blamed for being " oversensitive" because some idiot thinks it's his right to sit in in his girlfriend's dance classes. I think the girlfriend will not be in business long if she puts his "sensitivities " over those of the children she is meant to be looking after.
The child should not have to be aware of how to deal with situations like this . Unfortunately , she will have that experience to look forward to when an adult .
She is a child. He's the grownup .
I would hope he is harmless but his presence may be intimidating for preteen girls wearing not a lot .

Yes, there could be other reasons for her unease, and that is something that should be discussed between them and I suspect most parents can deal with .
But why diss the reason the child has given out of hand, for which the op is seeking help with , which is uncomfortable and difficult .


I think the snowflakes here are the ones who cannot accept the reality of the world we live in ,and choose to blame the child , or the mother asking advice anonymously, before she takes action, for which I think she is totally justified.

Goldengirl

Wheety wrote: »

Goldengirl, if the teacher was asked and confirmed this guy is Garda vetted, does that change everything?

If ,yes,at least that is something. Doesn't change everything.
I think the question of whether it inappropriate for him to be sitting there should at least be sparked in the dance teachers brain .
Up to her as to whether he stays or not then.
One of the questions in a child protection safety statement is whether the situation is appropriate given the age , gender and vulnerability of the child or children it covers.
That would be something the dance teacher should think about,not in her capacity as a girlfriend, but as a professional with a legal responsibility towards the children in her care.

Goldengirl

jlm29 wrote: »

Everyone has a right to privacy true enough in some scenarios, but if 5 dads of five other kids headed in to watch the class, and that made the girl uncomfortable, should they be asked to leave? If the OP (I can’t remember if they’re male or female) goes to watch a class and makes another child uncomfortable, should they have to sit out in their car?
It’s a musical theatre class, they put on a performance for all the parents at the end of the term, she’ll have to get used to people watching her. If she can’t, maybe she should consider changing her extra curricular activity to suit her personality. I’m not saying they should open the doors and invite every tom dick and Harry in, but this guy seems to Have a (somewhat minor, but possibly very important) role to play in the group. If she wants to dance in private let her do it at home in front of the mirror, and not in a group setting where there’s likely to be people coming and going.
Anyhow. The OP has vanished.

Music theatre class ,different dress code, don't you think ?
Yes if it makes children feel uncomfortable, all non essential adults should be asked to leave.
That is the way it is now in most places... children are given the respect to say if they feel uncomfortable.
Some children will refuse to play solos in concerts, or wear a certain outfit on stage . It makes things a little more awkward for the teachers, but I have seen children forced who just dropout ,and others who allowed to get along at their own pace,surpassing all expectations. Most teachers are trained to deal with that and handle these situations well.

jlm29

Goldengirl wrote: »

Music theatre class ,different dress code, don't you think ?
Yes if it makes children feel uncomfortable, all non essential adults should be asked to leave.
That is the way it is now in most places... children are given the respect to say if they feel uncomfortable.
Some children will refuse to play solos in concerts, or wear a certain outfit on stage . It makes things a little more awkward for the teachers, but I have seen children forced who just dropout ,and others who allowed to get along at their own pace,surpassing all expectations. Most teachers are trained to deal with that and handle these situations well.

Unfortunately, many adults do not feel comfortable being alone with a child or groups of children, for various reasons. This has to be respected too.

Goldengirl

GhostofKNugget wrote: »

There's no harm? There's plenty of harm that could happen there. A chat like that could lead to unfounded accusations being made, like your notion that he could be clandestinely recording the children (even though you don't know anything about this person, you've already dreamt up a myriad of ways that this person could be a predator), and then all of a sudden it becomes a situation of 'well, there's no smoke without fire' and the guy's reputation is in tatters.

And all because of the crime of helping out his girlfriend with her classes and sitting down and waiting for her to finish the class? Jesus...

I sometimes sit and wait for my daughter's ballet class to finish when I arrive early. Should I be Garda vetted because there's other children in that class and I am a man?

No need for vetting,but you may be asked to wait outside!

Honestly it doesn't have to be an accusation like that ,someone may not realise that they maybe intimidating. Not saying you are so don't jump on me😅

This may seem ott , but when you think it is not for our benefit, but for children's , and the more people think like that ,the less offended they become, generally.

Goldengirl

jlm29 wrote: »

Unfortunately, many adults do not feel comfortable being alone with a child or groups of children, for various reasons. This has to be respected too.

Yes , but that is up to her to work out what is appropriate, not the children.

SusieBlue

Goldengirl wrote: »

I disagree with that . There are many things which adults / parents do to cater to whims etc as you put it , others would say to cater to a child's needs in an age appropriate way!

The child feels uneasy. Why do you assume nothing untoward has happened?
This man or anyone else in this situation should be shown to be above reproach ,if nothing else.
At the very least nobody running a business involving children should allow any situation where any child , sensitive or not , feels uncomfortable.
Bad for business.

A lot of posters seem happy to ignore children's feelings because of " the poor man on the phone".
He is not a parent waiting for his child.
I have attended occasions as a parent waiting, where all phones were banned , at karate ,GAA, music , swimming , school plays,and so on . I do not take offence . It is upsetting that because of the RISK that some people may take pleasure in pictures of other people's children, that our personal rights are infringed upon . But there it is, its not very nice , but when you have children you have to face that uncomfortable fact , and we have to accept that reality.

This legislation and child protection is there so these same children don't have to deal with uncomfortable situations. Why should they?
Why should the child be blamed for being " oversensitive" because some idiot thinks it's his right to sit in in his girlfriend's dance classes. I think the girlfriend will not be in business long if she puts his "sensitivities " over those of the children she is meant to be looking after.
The child should not have to be aware of how to deal with situations like this . Unfortunately , she will have that experience to look forward to when an adult .
She is a child. He's the grownup .
I would hope he is harmless but his presence may be intimidating for preteen girls wearing not a lot .

Yes, there could be other reasons for her unease, and that is something that should be discussed between them and I suspect most parents can deal with .
But why diss the reason the child has given out of hand, for which the op is seeking help with , which is uncomfortable and difficult .


I think the snowflakes here are the ones who cannot accept the reality of the world we live in ,and choose to blame the child , or the mother asking advice anonymously, before she takes action, for which I think she is totally justified.

Yes absolutely, parents and guardians have a responsibility to cater to the whims of their children. Random strangers do not.
I assume nothing untoward happened because nothing in the OP suggests it did. There is literally no indication of foul play at all.

‘Some idiot thinks it’s his right to sit in on his girlfriends dance class’ - well that statement says it all really.
He is there to help lift and move equipment as has been stated over and over.
Why is he an idiot? Why are you name calling?

If his presence is that intimidating then she has no business in a musical theatre class, performing for other people is the whole point of it.
You’re right, she is the child and he is the grown up. You’re right, she shouldn’t have to deal with feeling like this.

But her mother is also a grown up, and her mother is the one who is responsible for her wellbeing.
Not this man.
The fact that you’re suggesting that OP, her daughter and this man need to come up with some sort of plan to make her feel less uncomfortable when he has done NOTHING wrong is absurd.
She’s not that mans responsibility. Why should he have to alter his (completely innocent) behaviour? Why should he be inconvenienced and made feel like he’s done something wrong?
So she can remove her from the class and find another more suitable one if she’s that bothered.
Her daughter, her problem, her issue to fix, not his.

Talking about taking sexual pleasure in other people’s children is such hysterical hyperbole with no place on this thread I refuse to even address it.

Goldengirl

GhostofKNugget wrote: »

Haha, Jesus... If this isn't grade A trolling then you're absolutely psychotic.

Have you kids yourself?

He was answering the poster who quoted him. Said nothing derogatory. Unlike you about him? Yet he is trolling?

Goldengirl

seamus wrote: »

You cannot get someone vetted "just because".

Availability of vetting is very much restricted to those scenarios where someone needs to be vetted. You can't just fire off an email and ask for you or someone else to get vetted.

The only way to get the man vetted would be for the teacher to lie to the Vetting Bureau and say that he works for her.

Not true.
Volunteers are vetted all the time .

Goldengirl

splinter65 wrote: »

This is ridiculous. I’ve come to the conclusion that you’re trolling.

Everything he has said is true in the world we live in.

KiKi III

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You are, whether deliberately or otherwise, conflating someone having a bruised ego with potentially ruining their life by implying they are a paedophile. Losing your job, having posters put up or your photo shared on Facebook is a little more than a bruised ego. People get murdered over this kind of stuff.

I think you’ve taken me up wrong.

The desire to ensure that volunteers in children’s groups are Garda vetted in no way implies that they are paedophiles - and that is all that I’m saying should happen.

Want to volunteer with kids? Get Garda vetted. Simple as.

No one is suggesting that anyone’s life should be ruined.

jlm29

Goldengirl wrote: »

Yes , but that is up to her to work out what is appropriate, not the children.

Yes exactly. She seems to have done that.

Goldengirl

SusieBlue wrote: »

Yes absolutely, parents and guardians have a responsibility to cater to the whims of their children. Random strangers do not.
I assume nothing untoward happened because nothing in the OP suggests it did. There is literally no indication of foul play at all.

‘Some idiot thinks it’s his right to sit in on his girlfriends dance class’ - well that statement says it all really.
He is there to help lift and move equipment as has been stated over and over.
Why is he an idiot? Why are you name calling?

If his presence is that intimidating then she has no business in a musical theatre class, performing for other people is the whole point of it.
You’re right, she is the child and he is the grown up. You’re right, she shouldn’t have to deal with feeling like this.

But her mother is also a grown up, and her mother is the one who is responsible for her wellbeing.
Not this man.
The fact that you’re suggesting that OP, her daughter and this man need to come up with some sort of plan to make her feel less uncomfortable when he has done NOTHING wrong is absurd.
She’s not that mans responsibility. Why should he have to alter his (completely innocent) behaviour? Why should he be inconvenienced and made feel like he’s done something wrong?
So she can remove her from the class and find another more suitable one if she’s that bothered.
Her daughter, her problem, her issue to fix, not his.

Talking about taking sexual pleasure in other people’s children is such hysterical hyperbole with no place on this thread I refuse to even address it.

Actually if you read my post , you will see that I do not say that the op and her daughter need to come up with a plan, with this man. I said the OP needs to talk to the teacher and the teacher needs to sort it . Not the op , not the child , not the boyfriend, the person who takes the money to teach class! Her responsibility, in law, in fact .

Also I am only pointing out the reason why so many of us have been stopped using our phones to record our children's concerts. Yes, it is because of the risk of paedophiles filming. It is also privacy and data regulation.
Nothing hysterical or hyperbolic except your response.
And to say the child has no right in the class because some idiot, yes , he's a fool , is intimidating her, if he is , is just wrong. She could be amazing if she felt ok.

Goldengirl

jlm29 wrote: »

Yes exactly. She seems to have done that.

That would be your opinion. I don't agree.