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I think you’ve taken me up wrong.
The desire to ensure that volunteers in children’s groups are Garda vetted in no way implies that they are paedophiles - and that is all that I’m saying should happen.
Want to volunteer with kids? Get Garda vetted. Simple as.
No one is suggesting that anyone’s life should be ruined.
Perhaps I missed it but why are people assuming that this man has not been Garda vetted and cleared?
People are drawing assumptions in relation to that and regardless do people really think if you told a young girl that he was vetted that whatever discomfort she is feeling would disappear?
Has the OP actually determined what exactly is causing these feeling of discomfort, is it that he is on his phone, just his mere presence etc..
i.e. if he stops looking at his phone and actively watched the class would that make the girl feel better, if not (and I suspect not) then the phone is irrelevant, no?
The first step I would recommend is that the OP needs to get to the bottom of what is actually causing the discomfort rather than getting letters drawn up, reporting to police etc without actually clarity on the situstion.0 -
Goldengirl wrote: »Actually if you read my post , you will see that I do not say that the op and her daughter need to come up with a plan, with this man. I said the OP needs to talk to the teacher and the teacher needs to sort it . Not the op , not the child , not the boyfriend, the person who takes the money to teach class! Her responsibility, in law!
Also I am only pointing out the reason why so many of us have been stopped using our phones to record our children's concerts. Yes, it is because of the risk of paedophiles filming and publishing . It is also privacy and data regulation.
Nothing hysterical or hyperbolic except your response.
Sort what though? His purpose is to move props and equipment. That’s why he is there and he hasn’t done anything wrong or untoward the child.
So what exactly is there to address with the teacher?
Why will you not consider thar some children are just over sensitive and the mother should find an alternative class that better suits her daughters needs?
Why are you hell bent on changing the running and dynamics of the existing class, when we can all agree that no one has done anything wrong?0 -
Sort what though? His purpose is to move props and equipment. That’s why he is there and he hasn’t done anything wrong or untoward the child.
So what exactly is there to address with the teacher?
Why will you not consider thar some children are just over sensitive and the mother should find an alternative class that better suits her daughters needs?
Why are you hell bent on changing the running and dynamics of the existing class, when we can all agree that no one has done anything wrong?
I have said just that, that the child may be over sensitive. But why should the teacher not be sensitive to her pupil's needs. Yes if she isn't maybe that's the way to go.
I am not hellbent . I am on a forum discussing whether this mother should ask about garda vetting and discuss her child's unease with the teacher.
Pretty straightforward you would think.
Yes all staff volunteers etc should / are supposed to be garda vetted.
You can argue this is pointless, he only moves props. Well then ,no problem. Move the props leave the room and come back when class over.
Don't like that option. Then stay in the room, get garda vetted for safety of both the children and the dance teacher's insurance, get off the goddamn phone .
Make himself unobtrusive, whether you are male in a female class , male class, female , whatever. The issue is whether this child is upset by his presence . I don't know about anything else as it is supposition, as the op has gone off site, probably because of the outrage , sparked by her question.
Why are you so hellbent , as you put it , on not changing the dynamics of the class ?? Just kick the girl and her trouble making mother out, like it was the 1950s .
Goodnight .0 -
Goldengirl wrote: »And to say the child has no right in the class because some idiot, yes , he's a fool , is intimidating her, if he is , is just wrong. She could be amazing if she felt ok.
verb - intimidate.
To frighten or overawe (someone), especially in order to make them do what one wants.
This man is not intimidating anyone. He is not making this girl do anything. Peculiar choice of verb. Again, to suggest he is intimidating her somehow, holds an underlying accusation that he is doing something wrong - he is not.0 -
Hold on, don't put words in my mouth. I was responding to the comment "vetted or unvetted, an adult male Has no place in a class of girls..."Goldengirl wrote: »You seem to have a problem with this.
The rules are there to protect children from abuse, which was allowed go unchecked up to a few years ago. Why would anyone object to that?
And the discussion whether male or female is irrelevant , ALL have to be vetted now.
All adults supervising activities or having access to any child have to be garda vetted. Even teens on work experience are vetted now.
I would be talking to my daughter to see why she is uneasy.The guy needs to cop on , hanging around children who may be scantily clad , with a mobile phone!
People are not allowed film their kids' plays or GAA matches anymore, and while to some, this may seem like overkill , it is with good reason.
If I were the op I would ask the dance teacher what the rules about unvetted adults hanging around while class is on and if an appropriate response is not forthcoming I would withdraw my child and report the dance school for not complying with regulations.
This is regulated by Children First legislation,and one reports to gardaí, Tusla or HSE .
This is a serious issue. The teacher may think her guy is lovely and helpful , but why would he be hanging around? This is well known grooming behaviour , and while he might be perfectly innocent , he and his girlfriend are being stupid or are very naive.
Why would she endanger her business just so he can stay warm ? He could go elsewhere to wait until the class is over.
Anyone running classes or teaching knows that Child Protection is first and foremost the most important policy to enforce, or they will be very quickly shutdown.
The question to be asked is why would she not know this?
I know lots of parents who would be uneasy and maybe the child has picked up on that.
Her uneasiness may be out of proportion,but having worked in this area, it is not good advice or practice to tell any to ignore their instincts.
And the reality is all children need protection make or female , and the lesson to be learned is by the adults who are involved , not to put it on the children in the first place., and use some common sense.
I can't believe that some posters here think that the little girl should be banned from dance class because her mother requests what is essentially a safe environment?
The op is a mother who's doing all the right things here ,not ignoring her child or this situation, and she has a right to ensure that all is well .
I never said I had a problem with vetting, I'm vetted myself.
And contrary to what some posters have said, it is not an easy form to fill out. All previous addresses have to be given as well as (expensive) police certificates for every country in which you've lived. If it wasn't for work and I was volunteering for a club I definitely wouldn't have bothered and would've just quit.
I suspect that if the OP goes asking questions (which is essentially an allegation) like the one highlighted above she won't get the chance to withdraw the child as the instructor would be incredibly foolish not to immediately exclude her and if other members of her family are attending, them too.0 -
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Goldengirl wrote: »I have said just that, that the child may be over sensitive. But why should the teacher not be sensitive to her pupil's needs. Yes if she isn't maybe that's the way to go.
I am not hellbent . I am on a forum discussing whether this mother should ask about garda vetting and discuss her child's unease with the teacher.
Pretty straightforward you would think.
Yes all staff volunteers etc should / are supposed to be garda vetted.
You can argue this is pointless, he only moves props. Well then ,no problem. Move the props leave the room and come back when class over.
Don't like that option. Then stay in the room, get garda vetted for safety of both the children and the dance teacher's insurance, get off the goddamn phone .
Make himself unobtrusive, whether you are male in a female class , male class, female , whatever. The issue is whether this child is upset by his presence . I don't know about anything else as it is supposition, as the op has gone off site, probably because of the outrage , sparked by her question.
Why are you so hellbent , as you put it , on not changing the dynamics of the class ?? Just kick the girl and her trouble making mother out, like it was the 1950s .
Goodnight .
Or the alternatively find a class that suits your child’s needs that they feel comfortable and happy in instead of making yourself a personal authority on how a private business runs itself.
For what it’s worth, and I didn’t mention it thus far for a reason, but I teach another form of dance to young children and if a parent came to me dictating how I run my class due to unfounded allegations they’d be told where to go.
I’m Garda vetted, every other adult present is vetted, and I go to reasonable lengths to ensure each child is comfortable.
But no way would I go down the road of catering to every whim cause I can tell you with experience that you will never please all parents and you’d be changing how your class is run on a weekly basis if you allowed the parents/children to dictate the running of it.
These are private businesses at the end of the day.
No one is obliged to stay, if they don’t like it they are more than welcome to go elsewhere.
There aren’t enough eye rolls in the word for your 1950’s comment, more unfounded hysteria on your part.0 -
Sort what though? His purpose is to move props and equipment. That’s why he is there and he hasn’t done anything wrong or untoward the child.
So what exactly is there to address with the teacher?
Why will you not consider thar some children are just over sensitive and the mother should find an alternative class that better suits her daughters needs?
Why are you hell bent on changing the running and dynamics of the existing class, when we can all agree that no one has done anything wrong?
Is his presence required to move the props, or is this something the teacher could easily manage herself (seems like it should be?)
The dynamics of the class sound a little off. I’m not saying the guy is doing anything wrong, but I know plenty of parents who would be deeply uncomfortable with a man who has no formal role in the class and is not a parent/ guardian hanging around a children’s dance class.
She should move the props herself and he should wait in the car.0 -
Is his presence required to move the props, or is this something the teacher could easily manage herself (seems like it should be?)
The dynamics of the class sound a little off. I’m not saying the guy is doing anything wrong, but I know plenty of parents who would be deeply uncomfortable with a man who has no formal role in the class and is not a parent/ guardian hanging around a children’s dance class.
She should move the props herself and he should wait in the car.
Perhaps she has some sort of injury inhibiting her from lifting heavy objects that doesn’t obstruct her ability to teach? If they’re anything like the props I’ve seen they’re massive set pieces that one person would struggle to lift on their own.
She may also want a second adult present to cover herself should any children make any accusations against her.
Child safety protocols advise to never be alone or with a closed door with a child in that kind of setting so maybe he’s there for that reason.
In my experience it would be quite common to have another person (vetted of course) at class to assist with music changes, mat moving, lifting props, getting water etc in the background so that the instructor can keep teaching seamlessly and no time is wasted because there are no distractions for the teacher.
We have a person for this in our class and there are periods of down time where she would be sitting down until she is needed again.
It sounds like that is this mans function too.0 -
Perhaps she has some sort of injury inhibiting her from lifting heavy objects that doesn’t obstruct her ability to teach? If they’re anything like the props I’ve seen they’re massive set pieces that one person would struggle to lift on their own.
She may also want a second adult present to cover herself should any children make any accusations against her.
Child safety protocols advise to never be alone or with a closed door with a child in that kind of setting so maybe he’s there for that reason.
In my experience it would be quite common to have another person (vetted of course) at class to assist with music changes, mat moving, lifting props, getting water etc in the background so that the instructor can keep teaching seamlessly and no time is wasted because there are no distractions for the teacher.
All that sounds pretty reasonable to me, and that might be the case here.
It doesn’t sound like it based on the OP though, it sounds he’s just hanging around.
If he’s on his phone there’s obviously the possibility that he’s taking photos or video.
He might be the most decent guy in the world and only helping his gf out, but the OP needs to find out if he’s vetted. She’s well within her rights to ask that.0 -
Just as an aside, and I somehow doubt that he is, but the recording of images, including those of children in public spaces isn't illegal. Indeed for classes like theater and dance, granting consent in these semi private spaces is often a requirement to participate.All that sounds pretty reasonable to me, and that might be the case here.
It doesn’t sound like it based on the OP though, it sounds he’s just hanging around.
If he’s on his phone there’s obviously the possibility that he’s taking photos or video.
He might be the most decent guy in the world and only helping his gf out, but the OP needs to find out if he’s vetted. She’s well within her rights to ask that.
Some parents get really worked up about this, yet don't seem to bothered by the myriad of CCTV that's around.0 -
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MrMusician18 wrote: »Just as an aside, and I somehow doubt that he is, but the recording of images, including those of children in public spaces isn't illegal. Indeed for classes like theater and dance, granting consent in these semi private spaces is often a requirement to participate.
Some parents get really worked up about this, yet don't seem to bothered by the myriad of CCTV that's around.
Yep, our class assistant is also responsible for getting our pictures/videos for our social media so would be taking them during the class (with parents consent of course).
I’ve found that the ones who are most precious about things like that are the ones who post about their child’s every bowel movement on their own social media.
Hyper conscious of a class picture on a restricted Instagram account, but over sharing private, intimate family moments to no end on their own public account.
It’s bizarre.0 -
Yep, our class assistant is also responsible for getting our pictures/videos for our social media so would be taking them during the class (with parents consent of course).
I’ve found that the ones who are most precious about things like that are the ones who post about their child’s every bowel movement on their own social media.
Hyper conscious of a class picture on a restricted Instagram account, but over sharing private, intimate family moments to no end on their own public account.
It’s bizarre.
I don’t find it bizarre.
I’m sure I don’t have to explain the difference between a parent choosing to share photos of their kids on social media and a stranger taking footage of them? (I’m not talking about your class assistant Susie, I mean someone with no role in the class)
And if that guy was taking photos or video, it may not be illegal but it’s creepy as fcuk.0 -
I don’t find it bizarre.
I’m sure I don’t have to explain the difference between a parent choosing to share photos of their kids on social media and a stranger taking footage of them? (I’m not talking about your class assistant Susie, I mean someone with no role in the class)
And if that guy was taking photos or video, it may not be illegal but it’s creepy as fcuk.
Oh of course not, the hypocrisy is just amusing. They are of course entitled to consent or refuse consent as they so wish.
Yeah, if he isn’t their social media person then it is creepy is he’s recording them. There was nothing alluding to him doing that in the OP though.0 -
Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »Are we calling little girls misandrists now? I don’t think the man needs to get banished but the source of the girl’s unease needs to be figured out and I doubt man-hating is the cause. Children can get freaked out by all sorts of things. Some of those things can seem illogical to an adult but make sense to the child.
No just the OP. Nobody here can really see into the childs'' mind which is a pity0 -
This thread highlights why, as a bloke, I will never get involved in any community projects or activities.0
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OP, I would be extremely careful how you proceed, for your child's sake and for the sake of this man and those close to him. A casual or ill-advised word is all it takes to destroy a life.0
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Is the OP concerned that the dance instructor hasn't been vetted? Probably not. So she would be ok with an adult being left alone with a group of kids just so a "strange" man can be removed from the room?0
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In my experience it would be quite common to have another person (vetted of course) at class to assist with music changes, mat moving, lifting props, getting water etc in the background so that the instructor can keep teaching seamlessly and no time is wasted because there are no distractions for the teacher.
We have a person for this in our class and there are periods of down time where she would be sitting down until she is needed again.
It sounds like that is this mans function too.
Could she look into getting a woman to do that role instead of the male partner?
I know it shouldn't make a difference but realistically it does. People would be far more accepting of a female at these classes than a male.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 25439
TheBoyConor wrote: »Could she look into getting a woman to do that role instead of the male partner?
I know it shouldn't make a difference but realistically it does. People would be far more accepting of a female at these classes than a male.
Women are equally able to groom and assault children so the perception of safety due to gender is flawed.
https://metro.co.uk/2020/01/14/two-female-pedophiles-plotted-kidnap-rape-torture-murder-child-12058735/
https://metro.co.uk/2019/11/21/arrogant-female-pedophile-raped-boy-14-months-ordered-remain-behind-bars-11195959/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Plymouth_child_abuse_case0 -
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TheBoyConor wrote: »Could she look into getting a woman to do that role instead of the male partner?
I know it shouldn't make a difference but realistically it does. People would be far more accepting of a female at these classes than a male.
But why? I would be of the attitude they can go find a class with a female assistant if the issue is that important to her.
Due to rising insurance costs & studio rental fees, its extremely likely that the partner is assisting for free, as a favour to her.
She would probably have to pay someone else to do what he does, and I'm sure if she could afford to pay someone rather than inconvenience her bored boyfriend who would probably rather be anywhere else, she would.
We have a female assistant purely because she's an ex student who is studying for her own teaching exams, who uses the class as work experience. We pay her expenses and allow her to shadow us, and in return she helps for free. We wouldn't be able to afford to pay anyone either.0 -
Ya but it is only in very rare circumstances that a female is the predatory abuser. It would be exceedingly rare. The fact that you had to dredge up these years old articles from the UK and USA reflects that.
Google child abuse without mentioning a gender and 99% of the articles will be male predators and there will be plenty Irish cases, and you won't have to use UK or USA.But why? I would be of the attitude they can go find a class with a female assistant if the issue is that important to her.
Well then she would be losing business because of a male helper. It would be turning away business to a competitor. Might be better in that regard too to have a female. Perhaps ex student or someone for work experience.
Much the same situation for creches and childcare. A lot of parents would be very very apprehensive about male staff in a creche and might be inclined to go elsewhere if there was the option. Sure there was a thread about the realities surrounding male staff in creches and preschools on here not so long ago.0 -
So, you're stating that, in "very rare circumstances", a predatory female is acceptable in a situation like this...?
Brilliant.0 -
Jaelyn Melodic Armadillo wrote: »
'Any person whose work or activity involves access to children or vulnerable persons must be vetted. Workers include staff, volunteers and those on student placements working for a relevant organisation through which they have access to children and / or vulnerable persons'.
Where did you get that wording from? It seems very broad.0 -
TheBoyConor wrote: »Well then she would be losing business because of a male helper. It would be turning away business to a competitor. Might be better in that regard too to have a female. Perhaps ex student or someone for work experience.
Much the same situation for creches and childcare. A lot of parents would be very very apprehensive about male staff in a creche and might be inclined to go elsewhere if there was the option. Sure there was a thread about the realities surrounding male staff in creches and preschools on here not so long ago.
I would be happy to lose business from oversensitive busybodies who try to dictate how I run my business based on completely unfounded allegations.
I have a friend in a managerial role in the childcare industry and they are crying out for male staff, they are among the most highly paid and the reason for that is that unfortuately a lot of children come from single parent families and studies have shown that a positive influence from a male caregiver & rolemodel can be very beneficial.
So its actually quite the opposite - parents are seeking out creches with staff quotas that are more gender balanced.
This notion of "all men are suspicious and dangerous" is extremely damaging, and not something we should be instiling in our children.
They should be taught to be cautious of all strangers, not just the male ones. Your attitude is extremely insulting to the 99.9% of decent men out there who have done nothing to deserve your gross generalisations.0 -
That is in no way conflicting with my post.Goldengirl wrote: »Not true.
Volunteers are vetted all the time .
Volunteers "work" for the organisation, and are therefore covered by the act.
This man does not "work" for the school, or if he does "work" it is in private arrangement between himself and the teacher for the teacher's benefit, not involving the children.
Therefore vetting for him is neither required, nor possible.
Ultimately this is all getting very far from the original topic. Whether or not Garda vetting is required is pretty irrelevant.
Although I don't spend much time around my wife's work, I have on occasion given her a dig out moving equipment and setting up.
If a parent asked her whether I was Garda vetted she'd probably be a bit taken aback before saying "no". If the parent pushed it, they'd be told there was no longer a place for their child.
Same here for the OP. She has 3 choices:
1. Make a big deal of this and have the teacher expel her child
2. Voluntarily take her child out of the class
3. Use this as an opporunity to help her child confront and handle uncomfortable situations without running away from them.0 -
Goldengirl wrote: »Everyone volunteering or supervising in these circumstances needs garda vetting.
What do you base that statement on?0 -
TheBoyConor wrote: »Ya but it is only in very rare circumstances that a female is the predatory abuser. It would be exceedingly rare.
You really should watch a couple of episodes of Dance Moms.
Women can be just as guilty of abuse, of the emotional kind.0 -
I would be happy to lose business from oversensitive busybodies who try to dictate how I run my business based on completely unfounded allegations.
I have a friend in a managerial role in the childcare industry and they are crying out for male staff, they are among the most highly paid and the reason for that is that unfortuately a lot of children come from single parent families and studies have shown that a positive influence from a male caregiver & rolemodel can be very beneficial.
So its actually quite the opposite - parents are seeking out creches with staff quotas that are more gender balanced.
This notion of "all men are suspicious and dangerous" is extremely damaging, and not something we should be instiling in our children.
They should be taught to be cautious of all strangers, not just the male ones. Your attitude is extremely insulting to the 99.9% of decent men out there who have done nothing to deserve your gross generalisations.
I’d be very much in favour of male childcare workers and infant teachers. Kids need male role models. They would obviously be well trained and adequately vetted.
I would not be okay with a female pre-school teacher’s boyfriend handing around at the end of the day.
You’re comparing apples with oranges, and child safety isn’t coming across as your top priority.0 -
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I’d be very much in favour of male childcare workers and infant teachers. Kids need male role models. They would obviously be well trained and adequately vetted.
I would not be okay with a female pre-school teacher’s boyfriend handing around at the end of the day.
You’re comparing apples with oranges, and child safety isn’t coming across as your top priority.
No Kiki, I was refuting the suggestion that even in professional childcare settings, parents are weary of sending their kids to facilities with any male staff.
I wasn't comparing it to OP's concerns or situation at all, I was answering the point that was made to me and I don't appreciate the insinuation that child safety isn't a priority to me.TheBoyConor wrote: »Much the same situation for creches and childcare. A lot of parents would be very very apprehensive about male staff in a creche and might be inclined to go elsewhere if there was the option.I have a friend in a managerial role in the childcare industry and they are crying out for male staff, they are among the most highly paid and the reason for that is that unfortuately a lot of children come from single parent families and studies have shown that a positive influence from a male caregiver & rolemodel can be very beneficial.
So its actually quite the opposite - parents are seeking out creches with staff quotas that are more gender balanced.0
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