General Election 2020 - See MOD note in First Post

Jonybgud

Squidvicious wrote: »

You're quite right though it is one of the main planks of revenue raising. Which ones are you(or SF)thinking need increasing? And would bring in enough to cut taxes elsewhere?

Can't speak for SF.

Why the linear train of thought? I'm not talking about increasing other taxes. I'm talking about introducing complete rafts of new taxes specifically for the super wealthy, big business and corporations. I'm talking about tax comforts for new businesses, reduced income tax for the self employed, etc.

You can argue SF havent mentioned most of the above except for taxation of the super wealthy. But, the others will never even consider any of the above, I believe SF may be open to listening to the above....

Jamie2k9

curmudgeonly wrote: »

The CAP cheques to UK farmers stop this friday, watch this space !

UK are paying them for next few years. Have you heard our lot want taxpayers to cover losses if there is a no deal and want CAP increased more. Watch the space, Irish taxpayers will be screwed more than Brits...

hardybuck

The party manifestos are being costed currently.

They won't be exact because there's loads of assumptions and tight turnaround etc., but it should put some structure on the debate in the next week or so.

Squidvicious

Jonybgud wrote: »

Can't speak for SF.

Why the linear train of thought? I'm not talking about increasing other taxes. I'm talking about introducing complete rafts of new taxes specifically for the super wealthy, big business and corporations. I'm talking about tax comforts for new businesses, reduced income tax for the self employed, etc.

You can argue SF havent mentioned most of the above except for taxation of the super wealthy. But, the others will never even consider any of the above, I believe SF may be open to listening to the above....

Personally, I'm a bit sceptical as to whether there is any major tax source that hasn't been tapped already. You mention corporations and big business. However, for better or worse, we've built economy on low tax for corporations. As I said, the super wealthy will generally find a way around taxation. My fear is that higher SF taxes will mean higher taxes for many more than the sources you mention, but will end up taxing a lot of ordinary people.
I'm not trying to be linear! It's just that SF's policies make me nervous. I don't trust them to keep the economy stable.

Quigs Snr

Squidvicious wrote: »

Personally, I'm a bit sceptical as to whether there is any major tax source that hasn't been tapped already. You mention corporations and big business. However, for better or worse, we've built economy on low tax for corporations. As I said, the super wealthy will generally find a way around taxation. My fear is that higher SF taxes will mean higher taxes for many more than the sources you mention, but will end up taxing a lot of ordinary people.
I'm not trying to be linear! It's just that SF's policies make me nervous. I don't trust them to keep the economy stable.

The problem with socialists and their various derivatives is that anyone who makes a little more than the average industrial wage is the enemy. As you have pointed out, the real money will either move that money altogether and leave the economy in a worse position... or will find new ways around it. Their lawyers and accountants tend to be better than what the government can afford.

Jonybgud

Squidvicious wrote: »

Personally, I'm a bit sceptical as to whether there is any major tax source that hasn't been tapped already. You mention corporations and big business. However, for better or worse, we've built economy on low tax for corporations. As I said, the super wealthy will generally find a way around taxation. My fear is that higher SF taxes will mean higher taxes for many more than the sources you mention, but will end up taxing a lot of ordinary people.
I'm not trying to be linear! It's just that SF's policies make me nervous. I don't trust them to keep the economy stable.

That's how I felt right up to late last year. But, the state of the health service, housing, homelessness, plight of teachers, nurses, gardai and the 2 main parties in power gladly taking turns on the merry-go-round of state perks ignoring the long running failing services and just stumbling from one new crises to another is sickening. Drug lords and crime bosses are laughing over children's graves all the way to the bank under the noses of our fairground spinners.

The embarrassing mess that is our national children's hospital. The national broadband festival of ****ups. The gap in retirement / pension age. Any number of farming crises. And on and on it goes.

We only have ourselves to blame that we don't get both those self entitled parties a long earned retirement and give SF the chance they deserve at this point.

Wanderer78

Squidvicious wrote:

Personally, I'm a bit sceptical as to whether there is any major tax source that hasn't been tapped already. You mention corporations and big business. However, for better or worse, we've built economy on low tax for corporations. As I said, the super wealthy will generally find a way around taxation. My fear is that higher SF taxes will mean higher taxes for many more than the sources you mention, but will end up taxing a lot of ordinary people. I'm not trying to be linear! It's just that SF's policies make me nervous. I don't trust them to keep the economy stable.

Economies are inherently unstable anyway, no matter what approach is taken, we simply do not fully understand the complexities of their workings, as they are always in a state of flux, I.e. they are effectively never stable.

Globally there's obviously something seriously wrong with wealth distribution, and clearly, many major large corporations have been engaging in large scale tax avoidance and evasion, and other activities such as share buy backs etc, in order to accumulate even more wealth. This probably won't end well for most of us if it continues. Yes, we have gained by having low corporate tax levels, but this is now under serious threat, not only are we in desperate need of more revenue from these sources, but so do many other countries. It's likely there could be an imposed European wide corporate tax rate soon, we should probably prepare for this now, it would help if they started by actually paying the full current rate of 12.5%. I personally think the difference should be paid in stocks and shares, and we utilise the use of sovereign wealth funds to redistribute it from there.

I wouldn't be overly concerned about sf going into government anytime soon, as I can't see it happening, maybe never, ff and fg have that one blocked up for now

Squidvicious

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Economies are inherently unstable anyway, no matter what approach is taken, we simply do not fully understand the complexities of their workings, as they are always in a state of flux, I.e. they are effectively never stable.

Globally there's obviously something seriously wrong with wealth distribution, and clearly, many major large corporations have been engaging in large scale tax avoidance and evasion, and other activities such as share buy backs etc, in order to accumulate even more wealth. This probably won't end well for most of us if it continues. Yes, we have gained by having low corporate tax levels, but this is now under serious threat, not only are we in desperate need of more revenue from these sources, but so do many other countries. It's likely there could be an imposed European wide corporate tax rate soon, we should probably prepare for this now, it would help if they started by actually paying the full current rate of 12.5%. I personally think the difference should be paid in stocks and shares, and we utilise the use of sovereign wealth funds to redistribute it from there.

I wouldn't be overly concerned about sf going into government anytime soon, as I can't see it happening, maybe never, ff and fg have that one blocked up for now

Yes, I think that a fair summary alright. I can't say that I'm terribly enthusiastic about FF or FG. As you rightly say, nothing is stable in the world and who knows what the future holds. As I said earlier in this thread, I simply prefer the devil I know. Plus, I have a real difficulty still with the IRA background of SF.

A part of me is curious to know what SF would do in government. Behind their left wing patter, I suspect that their aim is to be a centrist party, like FF. They want to be the main party of government some day and aiming for the centre ground is the obvious way to do that. The paradox is that they are fighting it out among left leaning voters for votes so they're caught between the left and centre. Many voters just don't trust them so they have to go to left leaning voters(who often want to see change). It's interesting that they're not at all left wing when in power in the North. They're currently bellyaching about the rise in the pension age here and want it brought back to 65. In the North, they increased it to 66. Hardly a principled approach.

If they ever got into coalition, there is a fair possibility that they will be cautious enough in their policies and people may come to think that they're not actually all that different to FF. A cautious approach might exactly what they need, of course. SF are out of bounds to many voters so a spell in power might detoxify them in the eyes of some voters. And whatever anyone might think, their main aim is a united Ireland - that is their priority. The dilemma is that that same cautious approach might alienate some of their left leaning voters. After all, if you vote for change, you may not be too happy if the party that you voted for turns out to be FF in disguise.

Squidvicious

Jonybgud wrote: »

That's how I felt right up to late last year. But, the state of the health service, housing, homelessness, plight of teachers, nurses, gardai and the 2 main parties in power gladly taking turns on the merry-go-round of state perks ignoring the long running failing services and just stumbling from one new crises to another is sickening. Drug lords and crime bosses are laughing over children's graves all the way to the bank under the noses of our fairground spinners.

The embarrassing mess that is our national children's hospital. The national broadband festival of ****ups. The gap in retirement / pension age. Any number of farming crises. And on and on it goes.

We only have ourselves to blame that we don't get both those self entitled parties a long earned retirement and give SF the chance they deserve at this point.

Yes, lots of problems alright. Then again, the problems that you list above apply to most countries to some degree or another. If you listen to the UK news, they're never done complaining about the NHS - there are few countries where people are happy with their health service. The other side of the coin is that after a brutal recession, we have good economic growth, full employment and no forced emigration. Is our glass half full or half empty? A lot done and more to do as FF once said.

Jonybgud

Squidvicious wrote: »

Yes, lots of problems alright. Then again, the problems that you list above apply to most countries to some degree or another. If you listen to the UK news, they're never done complaining about the NHS - there are few countries where people are happy with their health service. The other side of the coin is that after a brutal recession, we have good economic growth, full employment and no forced emigration. Is our glass half full or half empty? A lot done and more to do as FF once said.

I think you may have hinted at the root cause of a lot of the problems here. Our government model is based very closely on the UK system (bourne out of it actually) yet neither party are learning from the hard learned lessons of our next door neighbours.

Maybe a radical change is what we need, is really all I'm saying.

friendlyfun

Mícheál Martin came across so poorly last night on the debate and this is the man who is set be the next leader of our country. It is actually very worrying. He is not all confident in himself and he's part of the FF government that brought this country to it's knees. He won't give a fiddlers about Cardiac care and its not in the FF manifesto. Eddie in fairness has said it's one of his priorities but if it's not a priority for the party than I'm a bit at odds.

Squidvicious

Jonybgud wrote: »

I think you may have hinted at the root cause of a lot of the problems here. Our government model is based very closely on the UK system (bourne out of it actually) yet neither party are learning from the hard learned lessons of our next door neighbours.

Maybe a radical change is what we need, is really all I'm saying.

I disagree. Then again, we're each entitled to our opinions - neither of us can prove the other wrong....yet:). I don't think either of us will convince the other!

Taxburden carrier

Jonybgud wrote: »

That's how I felt right up to late last year. But, the state of the health service, housing, homelessness, plight of teachers, nurses, gardai and the 2 main parties in power gladly taking turns on the merry-go-round of state perks ignoring the long running failing services and just stumbling from one new crises to another is sickening. Drug lords and crime bosses are laughing over children's graves all the way to the bank under the noses of our fairground spinners.

The embarrassing mess that is our national children's hospital. The national broadband festival of ****ups. The gap in retirement / pension age. Any number of farming crises. And on and on it goes.

We only have ourselves to blame that we don't get both those self entitled parties a long earned retirement and give SF the chance they deserve at this point.

Could you expand on the plight of teachers,nurses and gardai ?

friendlyfun

Taxburden carrier wrote: »

Could you expand on the plight of teachers,nurses and gardai ?

Don't teachers have an unequal two-tier pay system at the moment the punishes teachers coming in new most?

hardybuck

friendlyfun wrote: »

Don't teachers have an unequal two-tier pay system at the moment the punishes teachers coming in new most?

If they have an unequal two tier pay system it's because the teachers voted for this agreement themselves via their unions.

Irish teachers are among the best paid in the world. I remember seeing that primary teachers are the 6th best paid of the OECD countries and secondary teachers are 8th.

friendlyfun

hardybuck wrote: »

If they have an unequal two tier pay system it's because the teachers voted for this agreement themselves via their unions.

Irish teachers are among the best paid in the world. I remember seeing that primary teachers are the 6th best paid of the OECD countries and secondary teachers are 8th.

Did the people just joining vote for it? I think not. Joe McHugh spinning his election promises saying FG will restore it in 2021 if elected.

hardybuck

friendlyfun wrote: »

Did the people just joining vote for it? I think not. Joe McHugh spinning his election promises saying FG will restore it in 2021 if elected.

No, the people who were working there at the time decided to shaft their future colleagues to protect their own benefits.

The same happened across the public sector by the way.

friendlyfun

Why so many FG supporters here? I assume plenty of people here are insulated from the worst of their policies. Reminds me of John Cummins standing behind Leo embarrassed when Leo wouldn't believe the mortuary stories.

hardybuck

Well I'd be probably one of those who you'd assume is a FG supporter. I can confirm that I'm not.

I think a lot of the left, particularly SF, have tried to make it a class war. It feels as though themselves, AAA & PBP want to 'tax the rich'. It feels a lot like 'let someone else pay for it', and that someone else would be someone like me. I would prefer to live in a society where everyone pays something, even if you are on a low income.

The whole 'posh boys and girl's stuff is also pretty hypocritical also when you have Mary Lou from Rathgar heading them up, Eoin O'Broin from Blackrock College etc. Paul Murphy went to St Killian's German School and the Institute of Education, Richard Boyd Barrett from Glenageary went to St Michaels - all posh boys.

I also wouldn't vote for SF because I remember the troubles, and they haven't moved enough past that in my opinion. Look at the guff from the likes of Gerry Adams for example.

hardybuck

friendlyfun wrote: »

Why so many FG supporters here? I assume plenty of people here are insulated from the worst of their policies. Reminds me of John Cummins standing behind Leo embarrassed when Leo wouldn't believe the mortuary stories.

For those who are interested here, it also appears that FG are the only party to support the North Quays project.

None of the others appear to have given any support to date, also this might change between now and polling day.

friendlyfun

I'm glad the younger generation are breaking away from the two party system anyway.

friendlyfun

hardybuck wrote: »

For those who are interested here, it also appears that FG are the only party to support the North Quays project.

None of the others appear to have given any support to date, also this might change between now and polling day.

Sad you actually believe that spin. FG the deliverers of the south-east. You couldn't make it up.

hardybuck

friendlyfun wrote: »

Sad you actually believe that spin. FG the deliverers of the south-east. You couldn't make it up.

Well I've taken this from Rob Cass and the local media.

He points out that FG have been publicly supportive of it, and included it in their capital plans. The others have not.

It really appears to be that simple. The other parties have manifestos out there and are out looking for votes and can get behind it if they want to.

friendlyfun

Eddie Mulligan is our best bet

Crusty Blaa

hardybuck wrote: »

For those who are interested here, it also appears that FG are the only party to support the North Quays project.

None of the others appear to have given any support to date, also this might change between now and polling day.

They had plenty of time to properly support it over the past few years but have continuously procrastinated and delayed funding. Apparently there is another deadline about to be passed without any progress.

Dexpat

Crusty Blaa wrote: »

They had plenty of time to properly support it over the past few years but have continuously procrastinated and delayed funding. Apparently there is another deadline about to be passed without any progress.

I must admit the twitter exchange Rob Cass was engaged in in relation to the North Quays and his assertion that he was sure the funding was coming through as part of Ireland 2040 has made me change my mind.

I have no time for FG and have said so on this thread, but it seems like it or not the project depends on FG getting back into power. Making Waterford an economically vibrant regional city rather than a relative backwater largely depends on the project. Hospital funding, university etc have a much greater likelyhood of happening in that context.

If FF are in power it will be back to square one, reviews will be done of any committments made and it sounds like the developers will finally loose patience.

I don't have a vote in Waterford but if I did, I'd now probably hold my nose and vote for FG and the go home and wash my hands with bleach. I'd then pretend to have voted for the greens.

I like David Cullinane and maybe if the numbers added up and FF needed SF to get into power he could have some input. That would require FF to drop their principles and serve with SF. FF would never drop their principles to get into power would they??

I think it's unlikely that FF at the moment will get enough seats to form a stable coalition with smaller parties so a similar arrangement to the current one is most likely with them being in government propped up by FG.

AdMMM

friendlyfun wrote: »

Eddie Mulligan is our best bet

His background means he'll never get close to the front bench.

The only chance Waterford has of getting a senior minister is to elect a candidate that is very close to the party leader or senior enough to be popular in their own right (and a threat to the leader). Nobody in FG fits the bill there, so that means Mary Butler is is probably Waterford's best chance of getting a minister. She has been on Micheal Martin's side for years and while she has voted against Waterford's interests with regards the boundary, that's the type of loyalty that gets rewarded by the party. Look at Mary Mitchell O'Connor for example, was given a Senior ministry in 2016 for towing the party line and even though she was a poor performer, she was still given a Super Junior ministry in 2017 for supporting Leo Varadkar.

wagtail99

friendlyfun wrote: »

Don't teachers have an unequal two-tier pay system at the moment the punishes teachers coming in new most?

I think the bigger problem with new teachers is the chance of getteing a proper 'start'. To qualify as a secondary school teache these days you must do an expensive 2-year masters, and after that the only work often available is a few subbing hours, here and there, not earning enough to live on and pay rent. And now qualified teachers from Ireland can walk straight into a job in the Middle East paying say €4k pm tax free - so often with high debt after their training they aren't hanging around.
A solution to this might be to have full- time panels of substitute teachers, so whereas the job may be a bit peripetic, at least they are earning a full- time wage and have their start. However as most schools are managed independently financially this cannot happen.
This independent school management (often with clergy at the top) also means that certain people with connections have a better chance of getting a FT permanent post.

Gardner

friendlyfun wrote: »

Eddie Mulligan is our best bet

Our best bet is another not so law abiding politician. Will ya ever f off

friendlyfun

Gardner wrote: »

Our best bet is another not so law abiding politician. Will ya ever f off

Who do you think is our best bet?