Drug driving

Bikerman2019

Genuine question related to a twitter feed I just read from the Gardai.

In relation to drug driving. I have always understood that to be prosecuted for drug driving, your driving must be impaired. This photo from their twitter account show positive for cocaine and cannabis. Yep, understood, no problem there. But Benzos and opiates can and do be prescribed legitimately by a GP, so where is the definition of illegal and arrestable here.

I have a relative with a broken spine and is prescribed some pretty serious pain killers, probably opiate based, I am thinking she could possibly test positive, but at 82 years old, she is not your average drug taker


Link to garda photo on twitter


There appears to be a lot of legitimate uses here so I am interested in your thoughts.

Benzodiazapeine medication.

Skyfarm

As far as I know there's different levels for legal and illegal ,
Quick dig around and I found this ,hope it helps

http://www.drugs.ie/features/feature/the_facts_garda_roadside_preliminary_drug_testing

Bikerman2019

Skyfarm wrote: »

As far as I know there's different levels for legal and illegal ,
Quick dig around and I found this ,hope it helps

http://www.drugs.ie/features/feature/the_facts_garda_roadside_preliminary_drug_testing

That is very interesting. Of course you should not be driving if impaired, but with the rise of these super checkpoints, where they pull a load of cars at a time randomly, it would be easy to get caught up in this.


If positive, maybe they move on to impairment tests ?

Ottoman_1000

Bikerman2019 wrote: »

Genuine question related to a twitter feed I just read from the Gardai.

In relation to drug driving. I have always understood that to be prosecuted for drug driving, your driving must be impaired. This photo from their twitter account show positive for cocaine and cannabis. Yep, understood, no problem there. But Benzos and opiates can and do be prescribed legitimately by a GP, so where is the definition of illegal and arrestable here.

I have a relative with a broken spine and is prescribed some pretty serious pain killers, probably opiate based, I am thinking she could possibly test positive, but at 82 years old, she is not your average drug taker


Link to garda photo on twitter


There appears to be a lot of legitimate uses here so I am interested in your thoughts.

Benzodiazapeine medication.

An uncle of mine, early 60's and as far removed from a drug taker a could possible be tested positive for cocaine at a random road side check point. He was then arrested and taken to the garda station for a further test that was to be sent to the lab. Got a letter about 3 weeks later to say that text returned a negative result and he was all clear. But on the other side he lost a full days wages (he is carpenter) and had to pay a couple of different taxi fares so as he could go and collect his van, which was the guards had actually abandoned in a near by lay-by once they had packed up their roadside checkpoint and moved on. He still does not know what could have caused the initial positive results and is terrified encase it happens again.

Bikerman2019

Wow. If he tested positive for cocaine, that is different, I guess they could only go on what the machine told them. However, what if it is legitimate prescription drugs backed up by a prescription? and the stop was random rather than a triggered event like a crash?
I assume they would use common sense and do impairment tests?

charlietheminxx

If I feel a migraine coming on (I usually get clear warning signs 30-60 minutes beforehand), I take codeine based painkillers and drive straight home before it hits properly. I've often wondered what would happen if I got pulled, the FAQ says its not a problem if you aren't impaired but I have some concerns anyway.

Bikerman2019

charlietheminxx wrote: »

If I feel a migraine coming on (I usually get clear warning signs 30-60 minutes beforehand), I take codeine based painkillers and drive straight home before it hits properly. I've often wondered what would happen if I got pulled, the FAQ says its not a problem if you aren't impaired but I have some concerns anyway.

I agree completely. I get some real headaches and take solpadeine. Thats codeine. Maybe a problem there.

ohnonotgmail

There was a discussion on this recently. In short there are 2 drug driving offences. The first is driving with over the prescribed limit of certain drugs in your body. If you have a medical certificate i.e. they were prescribed to you, then that is a defence to that charge. the second offence is driving while impaired due the presence of drugs in your system. having the drugs prescribed to you is not a defence to that charge

Markcheese

Bikerman2019 wrote: »

I agree completely. I get some real headaches and take solpadeine. Thats codeine. Maybe a problem there.

My girlfriend has come home seriously impaired with a migraine ,before she's taken any medication ,
If she took a couple of codine pills,and got stopped on the way home what then ... ?

William Legrande

The radio ad they ran at the time of this law being introduced mentioned among other things that they could detect in your saliva that you ate fish last week.

So do these tests detect nothing other than drug use at some random point in the past? Does it prove that intoxication is even present?

I'm not a drug taker, by the way.

Peregrinus

William Legrande wrote: »

The radio ad they ran at the time of this law being introduced mentioned among other things that they could detect in your saliva that you ate fish last week.

So do these tests detect nothing other than drug use at some random point in the past? Does it prove that intoxication is even present?

I'm not a drug taker, by the way.

As others have said, there are two different sets of laws.

First, there are laws like the blood/alcohol laws, which make it an offence to drive while you have more that a specified concentration of of a specified substance in your blood. The concentration specified is set at a level which, the science shows, tends to impair driving ability, but so far as getting a conviction goes it's not necessary to show that the individual's driving was impaired or that he was intoxicated in any sense; just that when tested he had in excess of the permitted concentration of the substance in his blood.

Some substances clear from the blood more quickly than others, and in addition individuals may vary in the speed with which they metabolize substances (which is the process which clears them from the blood). So, no, they don't detect use of the substance "at some random point in the past"; they detect the presence of the substance in your blood at the time you were driving or shortly after, which is associated with consumption in the (usually recent) past, but how long that may be will vary from substance to substance and, for a given substance, from individual to individual.

If you're a user of a substance that is covered by one of these laws, it would be wise to do some research on how quickly it clears, and how long after consumption it may be detected in the blood. It may be considerably longer than the 12-24 hours within which alcohol is typically metabolised.

Secondly, there are laws which make it an offence to drive while impaired by a specified substance. No particular blood concentration is specified; to get a conviction all you have to do is show that (a) the accused had taken the subsetance concerned (which a blood test may show, or other evidence may); (b) that his driving was impaired (this will be evidence of poor driving, or of confusion, slurred speech, inability to walk a straight line, etc); and (c) that the impairment was most likely the consequence of having taken the substance.

tedpan

Bikerman2019 wrote:

I have a relative with a broken spine and is prescribed some pretty serious pain killers, probably opiate based, I am thinking she could possibly test positive, but at 82 years old, she is not your average drug taker

Should an 82 year old with a broken spine on opiate based pain killers be driving in the first place?

Bikerman2019

tedpan wrote: »

Should an 82 year old with a broken spine on opiate based pain killers be driving in the first place?

Yep. She is fine. The painkillers are for pain from a vertabre and a fracture. She has a brace which resembles a verticle plank of wood

Steviewinger

I think if you show the prescription at the time you are left alone.

ohnonotgmail

Steviewinger wrote: »

I think if you show the prescription at the time you are left alone.

Not if they are impairing your driving. having a prescription wont save you from that.

Bikerman2019

Nah, she is fully there. No issue about that. Was just curious about where do you draw the line between testing positive for a substance and testing positive causing a prosecution.


I know the gardai have a little descretion to assess what is acceptable and what isnt. i.e. A little old one with a prescription against a drug addict, coloured yellow, with pills in a plain container.


It is an interesting subject.

Peregrinus

If you've been tested and your blood concentration is over the limit, the guards have very little discretion there. Precisely because this has been a fertile source of attempts (sometimes successful) to corrupt guards, the system is now set up so that, if your test is positive, this will be known at several points along the way by different people, so that no one can supress a prosecution without being able to offer a fairly robust justification for doing so.

If the guard wants to give a pass to the little old one with the prescription, the only practical way he can do this is by not testing her in the first place. Once he tests her, it's very hard to stop the ball rolling.

wexfordman2

With regards random testing , my understanding is:-

With alcohol, the test identifies the presence of alcohol and indicates the amount of alcohol in your system. If you are now the limit, no probs, if yo uh are above, off you go down to the station for blood test to confirm you are above the limit.

With drug testing, the random roadside test merely identifies the presence of a drug, and not the amount, so if there is any detection at all, then, off you go down to a garda station for a blood test to check if you were above the limit

GM228

wexfordman2 wrote: »

With regards random testing , my understanding is:-

With alcohol, the test identifies the presence of alcohol and indicates the amount of alcohol in your system. If you are now the limit, no probs, if yo uh are above, off you go down to the station for blood test to confirm you are above the limit.

With drug testing, the random roadside test merely identifies the presence of a drug, and not the amount, so if there is any detection at all, then, off you go down to a garda station for a blood test to check if you were above the limit

The preliminary drug test machine, the Dräger Drug Test 5000 also has cut off limits just like preliminary alcohol testing.

wexfordman2

GM228 wrote: »

The preliminary drug test machine, the Dräger Drug Test 5000 also has cut off limits just like preliminary alcohol testing.

Yeah, that was my understanding also, but a friend was tested recently, and was told by the testing Garda, that the new machines they are using detects presence of weed up to 7 days after use, and detection triggers a blood test.

Again, this is based on what I am being told, so take it as that, I dont want to miselad anyone, but the whole area is confusing to be honest.

Would love someone with a definitive answer to post up on this.

ohnonotgmail

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Yeah, that was my understanding also, but a friend was tested recently, and was told by the testing Garda, that the new machines they are using detects presence of weed up to 7 days after use, and detection triggers a blood test.

Again, this is based on what I am being told, so take it as that, I dont want to miselad anyone, but the whole area is confusing to be honest.

Would love someone with a definitive answer to post up on this.

they detect any weed that is present but only if it is above the prescribed limit. It just happens that weed can stay in your system for a while.

Benzodiazepines are taken by a few hundred thousand people in Ireland every year for depression/anxiety etc I think I have found a somewhat definitive answer to the OP question on the RSA website under their FAQs


https://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Campaigns/Anti%20Drug%20Driving/Preliminary%20Drug%20Testing%20List%20FAQs.pdf


If your oral fluid tests positive for benzodiazepines or opiates and the Garda is of the opinion that you are impaired you will be arrested and brought to the station where a blood specimen will be collected and sent to the MBRS for analysis.
If your oral fluid tests positive for benzodiazepines or opiates and the Garda is of the opinion that you are not impaired you are not committing an offence and can drive on.

Elsewhere on the RSA website they have good guidance around prescription drugs and driving- key message is always follow doctors guidelines and instructions and if you feel impaired, don’t drive.
In the motors forum they have a Garda twitter thread- I don’t recall an example where someone was arrested purely for benzos alone- it’s always a positive test for benzos plus alcohol or coke etc

However there was one instance I know of back in 2017-this was around when the law and testing were first introduced- I haven’t heard it being an issue since. I thing it would be prudent for anyone on such medication to bring a copy of their prescription with them when driving- it may help as long as no signs of impairment are present.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/i-was-humiliated-by-drug-driving-arrest-because-of-my-medication-driver-hits-out-at-new-laws-35639371.html

Benzodiazepines are taken by a few hundred thousand people in Ireland every year for depression/anxiety etc I think I have found a somewhat definitive answer to the OP question on the RSA website under their FAQs


https://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Campaigns/Anti%20Drug%20Driving/Preliminary%20Drug%20Testing%20List%20FAQs.pdf


If your oral fluid tests positive for benzodiazepines or opiates and the Garda is of the opinion that you are impaired you will be arrested and brought to the station where a blood specimen will be collected and sent to the MBRS for analysis.
If your oral fluid tests positive for benzodiazepines or opiates and the Garda is of the opinion that you are not impaired you are not committing an offence and can drive on.

Elsewhere on the RSA website they have good guidance around prescription drugs and driving- key message is always follow doctors guidelines and instructions and if you feel impaired, don’t drive.
In the motors forum they have a Garda twitter thread- I don’t recall an example where someone was arrested purely for benzos alone- it’s always a positive test for benzos plus alcohol or coke etc

However there was one instance I know of back in 2017-this was around when the law and testing were first introduced- I haven’t heard it being an issue since. I thing it would be prudent for anyone on such medication to bring a copy of their prescription with them when driving- it may help as long as no signs of impairment are present.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/i-was-humiliated-by-drug-driving-arrest-because-of-my-medication-driver-hits-out-at-new-laws-35639371.html

ghost of ireland past

Is it a requirement of the law that you follow your doctors advice?

If it says on the medical information sheet of a drug that you shouldn't drive is it automatically an offence to ignore that and to drive anyway?


Link to manufacturers website. Drager Drug Test.
https://www.draeger.com/en_uk/Products/DrugTest-5000

Some interesting info, eg

Detecting drugs on surfaces or in substances wrote:

Do you want to know on the spot whether there are detectable traces of drugs on the steering wheel or if the contents of a suspicious bag contain drugs?
Easily answer such questions by taking a sample with the DrägerSurface Screening Kit (SSK 5000) drug sampler and transferring the specimen to the Dräger DrugTest 5000 Test Kit. You can then analyse the sample with the Dräger DrugTest 5000 Analyzer.