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Changing patronage

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  • 14-01-2020 6:42pm
    #1
    slipperyox
    Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭


    Can the patronage of a second level school be changed? eg. from etb to community school? If so how?


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    #2
    slipperyox
    Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭slipperyox


    Nobody?


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    #3
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    I just don't think it's ever happened. Amalgamations, yes, but a school changing from ETB to Department? I've never heard of it happen. Ireland is quite a unique case in that most of our schools are denominational in the first place


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    #4
    TheValeyard
    Registered Users Posts: 12,476 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    Never heard of it happening.

    What's your reasoning OP?

    All Eyes On Rafah



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    #5
    TheDriver
    Registered Users Posts: 12,517 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    It happened in few schools in recent years whereby Catholic patronage changed to non religious. Think it was Quinn's era.


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    #6
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    TheDriver wrote: »
    It happened in few schools in recent years whereby Catholic patronage changed to non religious. Think it was Quinn's era.

    Yes, but has any school been able to leave a VEC/ETB and go it alone? We've actually talked about this in our staffroom. It wouldn't necessarily mean a change in denomination.


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    #7
    TheValeyard
    Registered Users Posts: 12,476 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Yes, but has any school been able to leave a VEC/ETB and go it alone? We've actually talked about this in our staffroom. It wouldn't necessarily mean a change in denomination.

    Ahhhhhh.
    Honestly do not know. If you left the ETB would you not loose state funding then?

    I am reasonably sure that the Education Act of 1998, explicitly states that only the Patron may amend or change its relationship with a school. No other group has any authority over the matter.

    All Eyes On Rafah



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    #8
    TheDriver
    Registered Users Posts: 12,517 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Yes, but has any school been able to leave a VEC/ETB and go it alone? We've actually talked about this in our staffroom. It wouldn't necessarily mean a change in denomination.

    But it wouldn't be going alone as a school requires a patron of which there are a few. You could be like the school in Tipo that's owned by a guy?


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    #9
    wingnut
    Registered Users Posts: 1,939 ✭✭✭wingnut


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Yes, but has any school been able to leave a VEC/ETB and go it alone? We've actually talked about this in our staffroom. It wouldn't necessarily mean a change in denomination.

    Wow a mutiny! It can be done but certainly not without the support of the current patron. I can't see an ETB 'dropping' a school that was viable.

    In general its a bit of hot topic at primary level:

    https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2019/0402/1040149-school-patronage/


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    #10
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    TheDriver wrote: »
    But it wouldn't be going alone as a school requires a patron of which there are a few. You could be like the school in Tipo that's owned by a guy?

    I suppose I'm coming from a school that is an amalgamation of three schools, two religious and one VEC, so when we amalgamated the school became a community college and became VEC. When I say going it alone, I mean when a few of us have discussed it, we could have just as easily become a community school under the Dept of Education instead. In that sense, we would have an individual allocation, and budgetary decisions etc, would not be taken in the ETB head office, where it feels we are a branch of a corporate entity. The school would have been a single entity in that sense if it had not become part of the VEC.


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    #11
    slipperyox
    Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭slipperyox


    Reason for query.
    Is that I feel it would be better for a school, and the taxpayer.

    The etbs were fused together in the last few years, but I would like a cost benefit analysis done where an etb with say 25 schools, compares with 25 community schools independent.

    Also, a principle in an etb, is not a principle.
    "head office" makes the decisions.
    And any BOM, is a sub commitee of the etb.

    If you ask me, I suggest the etbs have evolved into a layer of bureaucracy and not needed admin.

    Hence reason for post.


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    #12
    wingnut
    Registered Users Posts: 1,939 ✭✭✭wingnut


    slipperyox wrote: »

    Also, a principle in an etb, is not a principle.

    Are you saying ETBs are not principled? ;)

    All valid points in relation to beurocracy and layers of admin creaming money and making decisions. In contrast (in theory at least) tasks jobs such as HR are centralised and more efficient. It's impossible to compare really. Also things like hiring etc CAN be a little fairer as there are boards that are removed from the school.

    I suggest it's a waste of time persuing this train of thought as there is no way it's changing any time soon and you will not divest an ETB school. If you are really fed up with your ETB the only realistic option is to move schools I'm afraid.


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    #13
    slipperyox
    Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭slipperyox


    wingnut wrote: »
    Are you saying ETBs are not principled? ;)

    All valid points in relation to beurocracy and layers of admin creaming money and making decisions. In contrast (in theory at least) tasks jobs such as HR are centralised and more efficient. It's impossible to compare really. Also things like hiring etc CAN be a little fairer as there are boards that are removed from the school.

    I suggest it's a waste of time persuing this train of thought as there is no way it's changing any time soon and you will not divest an ETB school. If you are really fed up with your ETB the only realistic option is to move schools I'm afraid.

    I'm not in any way fed up.
    I'm just pointing out how schools could be run more effectively.

    Regards HR.
    The etb's even outsource pay ffs:rolleyes:
    As for hiring, not any fairer.

    I suggest they have become quango's


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    #14
    wingnut
    Registered Users Posts: 1,939 ✭✭✭wingnut


    slipperyox wrote: »
    As for hiring, not any fairer.

    Have to disagree with you there. There is scope for score manipulation in both scenarios but it is definitely easier for principals to hire someone with an 'in' in non ETB schools.


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    #15
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,222 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    The easiest way to 'run schools more effectively' would be to not have numerous schools of many flavours and colours in the one small town as we currently have all over the country. Shocking waste of resources all over the place.


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    #16
    TheValeyard
    Registered Users Posts: 12,476 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    spurious wrote: »
    The easiest way to 'run schools more effectively' would be to not have numerous schools of many flavours and colours in the one small town as we currently have all over the country. Shocking waste of resources all over the place.

    Yeah, but staff and parents would be up in arms over that. Some want ETB, some prefer the Community model, some want delgoous/voluntary run, others want CBS, educate together, single sex, etc.

    Think the reason we have such a mix of all is that there is actually demand for different styles of educational ethos or school patrons. But I wonder if the students would ever actually notice a difference.

    All Eyes On Rafah



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    #17
    wingnut
    Registered Users Posts: 1,939 ✭✭✭wingnut


    spurious wrote: »
    The easiest way to 'run schools more effectively' would be to not have numerous schools of many flavours and colours in the one small town as we currently have all over the country. Shocking waste of resources all over the place.

    I've seen some schools in the states where the facilities are on a par or better then our third level institutions. Economies of scale, bus the students in.

    Choice is important but some places in Ireland there could be 7 secondary schools in a three mile radius.


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    #18
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    TheValeyard wrote: »
    Yeah, but staff and parents would be up in arms over that. Some want ETB, some prefer the Community model, some want delgoous/voluntary run, others want CBS, educate together, single sex, etc.

    Think the reason we have such a mix of all is that there is actually demand for different styles of educational ethos or school patrons. But I wonder if the students would ever actually notice a difference.

    Is there really such a massive difference though? They are all by and large doing the same range of subjects. They are sitting the same state exams. They participate in similar extra curricular activities. Catholic schools have schools masses, might have a morning prayer on the intercom etc. Obviously this doesn't happen in Educate Together. But are schools wildly different on the day to day stuff?? I don't think so myself.

    Would students really notice if schools were non/multi denominational and at religion time everyone went their separate ways to a class that was in line with their beliefs?

    All I ever hear from students is that religion classes are a waste of time and that they would prefer to use the time for studying, particularly in Leaving Cert.

    It's fairly well established that many kids making their communion don't see the inside of a church until a few weeks beforehand and possibly not again until their confirmation. Can't see how any of these families would be put out by not being in a denominational school when effectively they aren't practicing Catholics anyway.

    Couldn't make any comment on any other religious affiliations.


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