Sinn Fein's Paddy Holohan and homophobia

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think he is saying here that they way the comments were interpreted was not how he intended them to be.

That's the danger of making long rambling incoherent points I reckon.

So what did he intend? Because I am really struggling to see any other interpretation. What’s more, it seems the remarks came across two different podcasts, so it wasn’t a one-off.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

But what was his intention? Is there a non racist interpretation?

For me it was to say what people have been saying for over a week now in relation to RIC/DMP.

That he is separated from his history in the way others aren't.
I believe that and can and have explained why I think that. I am not saying I am more Irish than Leo though, just that I connect with history differently to him and others here.

The 'homophobia' one is just ridiculous.

If I posit the view that I think teachers should have children because that would make them better teachers of children, and a teacher who is gay takes that as a slur, am I homophobic?

Of course I am not.

KiKi III

FrancieBrady wrote: »

For me it was to say what people have been saying for over a week now in relation to RIC/DMP.

That he is separated from his history in the way others aren't.
I believe that and can and have explained why I think that. I am not saying I am more Irish than Leo though, just that I connect with history differently to him and others here.

And the remarks on when he decided to come out; how do you explain those away?

Plumbthedepths

What Paddy said is contained in the article below as is his apology to Leo. Paddy is lucky that Leo is a far more understanding and tolerant person than some commenting here Leo was gracious enough to accept the apology.
Some here have the torches and pitchforks at the ready, when are ye heading to Paddy's gaff folks?


https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/varadkar-accepts-apology-from-sf-councillor-paddy-holohan-over-controversial-comments-38867738.html

freshpopcorn

Do I think this comment was homophobic?
No, I think he was just saying he was a family man with kids to connect with voters and he said it in the wrong way.
Do I think he's homophobic?
I haven't a clue because he doesn't say much apart the usual populist stuff.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

For me it was to say what people have been saying for over a week now in relation to RIC/DMP.

That he is separated from his history in the way others aren't.
I believe that and can and have explained why I think that. I am not saying I am more Irish than Leo though, just that I connect with history differently to him and others here.

And his Indian heritage is repsonsible for this according to Paddy especially as its on his fathers side too.

How do you intrepret that part of it?

Sir Oxman

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.buzz.ie/news/paddy-holohan-under-fire-for-bizarre-leo-varadkar-comments-351209

An extraordinary podcast from a Sinn Fein councillor has just been published. In it he says that "he would like a "family man" and "someone who knows what it's like to have kids" running the country."

"Someone that knows what it’s like to have kids, maybe, hopefully, boys and girls, so when you’re creating policies and stuff that’s going to go on, you’re like: 'right, that makes sense'"

This has yet to be picked up by the national newspapers or RTE, but it is only a matter of time before it comes to prominence. It is hardly a one-off either. Whether it is idiots with Kingsmill bread on their heads, leaders making speeches about how they will get the bastards in relation to unionists, or misogynistic attacks on Mairia Cahill, Sinn Fein have form with this type of political invective.

Homophobic attacks on the Taoiseach are to be expected, but you would have thought they would come from a rural politician with the emotional intelligence of a Healy-Rae, but hearing it from a working-class Sinn Fein councillor is suprising on the face of it. It is a blatant form of homophobia - don't vote for the gay because he doesn't understand families - aimed at those who are less well-educated.

I hope that it is a one-off and not part of the Sinn Fein playbook for this election. With the loss of votes to Aontu, the frequent complaints about Sinn Fein moving away from its core, I can see how this type of nod and wink to more conservative republicans would be designed to keep votes that were drifting, but hopefully this isn't so as it is a complete disgrace. We see the comments on here from many who decry Sinn Fein adopting a liberal agenda and also there are the more insidious references to Varadkar's sexuality which are excused as having the craic.

Let's hope that Mary-Lou gets on top of this, apologises to the Taoiseach for the remarks, and removes this odious man from her party.

That wasn't homophobia.
LV may have kids in the future, then he will be a 'family man'


The other bit was stupid ignorance - Holohan appears to forget humans have two sets of grandparents, great-grandparents etc





*Disclaimer: Not a SF voter

smurgen

As a SF supporter and republican and someone who hates Varadkar I hate to say paddy Houlihan is an idiot and what he's said cements this for me and Varadkar's acceptance has made me think more of him.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

And his Indian heritage is repsonsible for this according to Paddy especially as its on his fathers side too.

How do you intrepret that part of it?

As somebody said, he made a hash of explaining it.

I don't understand how saying somebody is separate to your own history but who is obviously a part of that history is racist?

He is neither saying Leo is 'not Irish' or that he is a superior Irishman. All he is saying is Leo is separate from the rest of society (said many many times here and elsewhere) and he is separate from our history (said many many times over the last week)

It is also said about Unionists, partitionists and about me and others too by Unionists, partitionists. Often in more disparaging terms let me tell you.

FrancieBrady

smurgen wrote: »

As a SF supporter and republican and someone who hates Varadkar I hate to say paddy Houlihan is an idiot and what he's said cements this for me and Varadkar's acceptance has made me think more of him.

Wholeheartedly agree.

markodaly

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Somehow I doubt Leo would cast himself in the roll of victim as you are attempting too. Holahan was a gob****e for what he said, he accepted he was in the wrong and apologised. Leo to his credit has accepted the apology.

I didnt mention the word victim nor allueded to it.

What I did was call out the comments for what they are, Homophobic and racist.
He talked about Leo's 'Indian blood' for **** sake.

Leo Varadkar’s blood obviously runs to India. His great-grandfather is not part of the history of this country.

What is this? 1930's Germany?

Personally I think the guy should resign or SF take action against him, but that is a matter for SF.
Anyway, whatabout away.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

As somebody said, he made a hash of explaining it.

I don't understand how saying somebody is separate to your own history but who is obviously a part of that history is racist?

He is neither saying Leo is 'not Irish' or that he is a superior Irishman. All he is saying is Leo is separate from the rest of society (said many many times here and elsewhere) and he is separate from our history (said many many times over the last week)

It is also said about Unionists, partitionists and about me and others too by Unionists, partitionists. Often in more disparaging terms let me tell you.

To be honest, that is a load of hogwash.

He criticised Leo for coming out in the context of the same-sex marriage referendum, just before he criticised him for not being a family man. Family values is a US conservative phrase used by politicians to attack gay rights, abortion rights and other normal features of a normal society.

It was a sickening intervention.

As for the racist element, if you proclaim that Irishness does not include partitionists as you call them, unionists, and people descended from immigrants, then you see nothing wrong with his remarks.

markodaly

PH says his comments have been 'misinterpreted'
OK so, how abouts he clarifies his comments. He can start with what we meant by "Indian blood"

Leo Varadkar’s blood obviously runs to India. His great-grandfather is not part of the history of this country.

Or his lack of 'passion' as non-pure person from Irish stock.

He’s an Irish citizen but his passion doesn’t go back to the times when our passion goes back to.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

To be honest, that is a load of hogwash.

He criticised Leo for coming out in the context of the same-sex marriage referendum, just before he criticised him for not being a family man. Family values is a US conservative phrase used by politicians to attack gay rights, abortion rights and other normal features of a normal society.

It was a sickening intervention.

Having to go to an Americanism points to how much you are struggling here.
He never referenced Leo's sexuality. You are though.

As for the racist element, if you proclaim that Irishness does not include partitionists as you call them, unionists, and people descended from immigrants, then you see nothing wrong with his remarks.

If you say 'obviously Leo is a part of that' (our history) how can you also be saying he isn't Irish. You need to make some sense and recognise everything he said, and stop cherrypicking things out.

You also need to realise this is a transcript of an interview, so tone is also important.

Also realising that he isn't the sharpest knife int he drawer might help too. WWe have plenty enough of them in the Dail already.

ILoveYourVibes

I wonder what he makes of De Valera being half hispanic.

FrancieBrady

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I wonder what he makes of De Valera being half hispanic.

It's not hard to work out if you actually listen to what he said. It isn't exactly rocket science.

Was Dev 'separate from our history'? (paddy's version of history)

markodaly

KiKi III wrote: »

It’s mad to see people denying the clear racism and homophobia of the remarks. There really is no way to misinterpret what he said.

Yes, I have to love the, 'it was stupid' but 'not racist or homophobic', defence here.
Shocking stuff really in this day and age that grown adults would try and defend this stuff, but that is the way it is.

I am sure someone will be along shortly to mention Charlie Flanagan as some sort of non-racist or homophobic defence. :pac:

Balf

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I wonder what he makes of De Valera being half hispanic.

Or Padraig Pearse having an English father.

Plumbthedepths

markodaly wrote: »

Yes, I have to love the, 'it was stupid' but 'not racist or homophobic', defence here.
Shocking stuff really in this day and age that grown adults would try and defend this stuff, but that is the way it is.

I am sure someone will be along shortly to mention Charlie Flangan as some sort of non-racist or homophobic defence. :pac:

Keep the outrage going, whilst Leo has already accepted Paddy's apology and dear I say moved on. Seems Leo is far more tolerant and forgiving than the guys and gals getting outraged here.

Jinglejangle69

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Keep the outrage going, whilst Leo has already accepted Paddy's apology and dear I say moved on. Seems Leo is far more tolerant and forgiving than the guys and gals getting outraged here.

So Leo is God now suddenly and we should follow what he does?

You spend your days slating Leo.

Hypocrisy.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Yes, I have to love the, 'it was stupid' but 'not racist or homophobic', defence here.
Shocking stuff really in this day and age that grown adults would try and defend this stuff, but that is the way it is.

I am sure someone will be along shortly to mention Charlie Flanagan as some sort of non-racist or homophobic defence. :pac:

'mon Mark...you have a go:


When you say 'Leo is obviously a part of that' (our history) how are you being 'racist'?
People here have tried to cut that little sentence out of what he said and it is not hard to know why if you wish to mis-interpret.

Saying somebody has a different connection to our history than you yourself has - is also not racist. We argue about that connection here every day of the week 365.

If it is, explain how.

ILoveYourVibes

Balf wrote: »

Or Padraig Pearse having an English father.

Oh no that i cannot be having with he is OUT of the country! :mad:

Kidding!

Plumbthedepths

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

So Leo is God now suddenly and we should follow what he does?

You spend your days slating Leo.

Hypocrisy.

Not at all , I don't like Leo or his politics. However I can give credit where it's due. I'm not petty I leave that to others. ;-)

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Having to go to an Americanism points to how much you are struggling here.
He never referenced Leo's sexuality. You are though.



If you say 'obviously Leo is a part of that' (our history) how can you also be saying he isn't Irish. You need to make some sense and recognise everything he said, and stop cherrypicking things out.

You also need to realise this is a transcript of an interview, so tone is also important.

Also realising that he isn't the sharpest knife int he drawer might help too. WWe have plenty enough of them in the Dail already.

The point is that the use of family values in American politics by the religious right is a way of promoting homophobia while being able to deny being a homophobe, a tactic copied and adopted bu Holohan, and then used on here to defend him.

I know he isn’t the sharpest tool in the drawer, but that is a characteristic shared by many Sinn Fein public representatives, just remember the sectarian bread fellow.

Listened to the podcast, btw it was his podcast, not an interview, and it sounded even worse.

As I keep saying, nationalism is one of the more evil ideologies, and the type of exclusive nationalism put forward by the likes of him is one of the most insidious of all.

markodaly

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Keep the outrage going, whilst Leo has already accepted Paddy's apology and dear I say moved on. Seems Leo is far more tolerant and forgiving than the guys and gals getting outraged here.

I hear there is a story about a homeless '81 year old' about to break... :pac:

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'mon Mark...you have a go:


When you say 'Leo is obviously a part of that' (our history) how are you being 'racist'?
People here have tried to cut that little sentence out of what he said and it is not hard to know why if you wish to mis-interpret.

Saying somebody has a different connection to our history than you yourself has - is also not racist. We argue about that connection here every day of the week 365.

If it is, explain how.

So, you are defending outright racist remarkes then.
Not surprised really.

He mentions Varadkar's 'Indian Blood', a dog whistle for the far right.
Whatabout away.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

So, you are defending outright racist remakes then.
Not surprised really.

He mentions Varadkar's 'Indian Blood', a dog whistle for the far right.
Whatabout away.

The 'far right' need a dog whistle?
Is there a person in the country that doesn't know of his Indian heritage?

I am not waht abouting. I am asking someone who has decided this is outright racism how he explains the below.

When you say 'Leo is obviously a part of that' (our history) how are you being 'racist'?
People here have tried to cut that little sentence out of what he said and it is not hard to know why if you wish to mis-interpret.

Saying somebody has a different connection to our history than you yourself has - is also not racist. We argue about that connection here every day of the week 365.

If it is, explain how.

jimmycrackcorm

Whatever about the homophobic connotations, it's the equivalent of saying that male gynaecologists should not have a job when they don't have a cat.

Plumbthedepths

markodaly wrote: »

I hear there is a story about a homeless '81 year old' about to break... :pac:

Best you can do as a comeback? lol.

blanch152

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Twatish OP - Gay people can have kids too you know. If anyone is coming across as homophobic its that article. Obviously a smear on SF.

His words are completely taken out of context and I would question the credibility of a journalist who cannot understand basic comprehension.

You were in early with this contribution, I think the reaction across the political spectrum as shown on Tonight on Virgin One shows I was right to highlight it.