Risks of appeals to An Bord Pleanala

masterK

I was looking for some advice on those familiar with the planning process. Basically the builder of the estate where we live has plans to add another 150 houses, the residents are not opposed to the houses themselves but rather the manner in which they will be accessed and a lot of associated safety concerns.

After a few attempts permission was granted by the local council, we are now considering an appeal to ABP, the main focus of our appeal are twofold

1) The road to access the new development passes by a lot of our homes and around a green area for children to play. We have suggested an alternative access route which will not pass any existing homes or play area. The builder has told us that ABP won't even consider this and that it was the council who insisted it be this way

2) The builder is telling us that ABP could well impose much higher density housing on the development (the current plans are a mix of 3/4 bed houses).

We live in a village close to Dublin on the commuter belt where almost everybody is dependent on a car.

I would appreciate any input on the above, the last thing we want to do is make things worse.

woohoo!!!

Without seeing the application details no one can really comment on the access arrangements.

Bord Pleanala will look for minimum densities for national guidelines, access and layout and housing type mix. I'd hire a planning consultant to advise and submit obejection on your behalf.

Bottom line though, if the land is zoned, serviced and is not likely to be de-zoned, something will be granted and built.

silver2020

I assume you or one of the residents objected or made an observation to the planning that was granted? - otherwise you cannot appeal to abp.

A above, get a planning consultant.

You also find that people safety fears are almost always over stated.

Once you have appropriate traffic calming measures in place, this can alleviate a lot of issues

masterK

silver2020 wrote: »

I assume you or one of the residents objected or made an observation to the planning that was granted? - otherwise you cannot appeal to abp.

A above, get a planning consultant.

You also find that people safety fears are almost always over stated.

Once you have appropriate traffic calming measures in place, this can alleviate a lot of issues

Yes I am. What I am really trying to gauge is if ABP would ever re-route access roads or change the type of density or is this something they won't interfere with once agreed at council level.

Dudda

masterK wrote: »

1) The road to access the new development passes by a lot of our homes and around a green area for children to play. We have suggested an alternative access route which will not pass any existing homes or play area. The builder has told us that ABP won't even consider this and that it was the council who insisted it be this way

Without seeing the site I'm guessing the builder is right. They'll always prefer the existing entrance into a residential area. A new alternative access route would require new sight lines onto an existing road which are extremely difficult to make. Getting a new entrance onto a road can be one of the hardest parts of a residential application.

masterK wrote: »

2) The builder is telling us that ABP could well impose much higher density housing on the development (the current plans are a mix of 3/4 bed houses).

Again the builder could well be right. I'm working on a job where ABP told us the density wasn't high enough in the current housing shortage and we had to go back and add lots of extra units and increase heights.
On another project the site has existing planning for x number units but we're re-applying with a new layout as the regulations on densities have changed and the builder will be able to build more units and make more money.


As said above by others you really, really need a very good planning consultant. Any planning consultant can make an appeal on your behalf but only a good honest consultant might advise against appealing as it could risk increasing the density. The planning consultant wouldn’t get as good a fee but it could be the right thing to do.

What I’m trying to say is if a planning consultant says don’t object don’t look for another one who will object to ABP.

Calahonda52

Given their recent approval of the big co-living project in Castleknock, against the advice of their own advisor, I would say keep the head down and rag the LA for TM solutions once the houses are built

Penn

masterK wrote: »

Yes I am. What I am really trying to gauge is if ABP would ever re-route access roads or change the type of density or is this something they won't interfere with once agreed at council level.

When ABP get an appeal, they review the entire development from scratch. Obviously they take into consideration the appeal, the applicants and the council's justifications, but they can change anything they wish with the application if they feel it's justified/warranted, including things no-one had any issue with before.

So yes, they could make it a condition of planning to do something different (access road, density of houses).

Metric Tensor

I am also aware of at least one recent case where ABP have insisted on a higher density of development against both the wishes of the local authority AND the developer. This is a direct result of current intensive lobbying regarding the housing market.

I'd tread carefully OP - particularly if the land is zoned and the transport links to Dublin are good.

woohoo!!!

Metric Tensor wrote: »

I am also aware of at least one recent case where ABP have insisted on a higher density of development against both the wishes of the local authority AND the developer. This is a direct result of current intensive lobbying regarding the housing market.

I'd tread carefully OP - particularly if the land is zoned and the transport links to Dublin are good.

In relation to apartments and building heights, yes I would agree. In relation to density, no, ABP is enforcing 2009 guidelines. I agree the an appeal could well lead to more houses, but they will insist on road infrastructure being in accordance with DMURS, re-published in 2019, which may assuage OPs concerns.

silver2020

Also seems like there's reasonable communication with the developer.

Some developers specialise in 3/4 bed semis - its what they know. If they were told to add some apartments/ duplexes, it may not suit their style.

So maybe traffic management/calming discussions with the developer is a better option?

Metric Tensor

woohoo!!! wrote: »

In relation to apartments and building heights, yes I would agree. In relation to density, no, ABP is enforcing 2009 guidelines. I agree the an appeal could well lead to more houses, but they will insist on road infrastructure being in accordance with DMURS, re-published in 2019, which may assuage OPs concerns.

The higher density in the case I'm referring to was indeed to substantially increase apartment numbers by increasing the building heights.

However, my understanding was that the existing density guidelines were intended as maximum values - not a target (which they now are)

P.S. I fully agree that DMURS will be enforced. However, I suspect the OP in this case would forego some of the finer points of DMURS if adhering to them also meant a drastic increase in density!

woohoo!!!

Metric Tensor wrote: »

The higher density in the case I'm referring to was indeed to substantially increase apartment numbers by increasing the building heights.

However, my understanding was that the existing density guidelines were intended as maximum values - not a target (which they now are)

P.S. I fully agree that DMURS will be enforced. However, I suspect the OP in this case would forego some of the finer points of DMURS if adhering to them also meant a drastic increase in density!

I think there's room for interpretation with the different ranges. From the OPs perspective, the one which could see it going over is where there's good public transport links. In any event, these are all issues to bring to a good planning consultant to ask 2 sets of questions: is the developer right that an appeal could lead to higher densities, per national guidelines and is it realistic to look for a separate access or changes to proposed per DMURS?

Then can decide whether can risk an appeal.

Or maybe the developer is exaggerating, doesn't want to be held up by planning again, considering this is the 4th attempt (or whatever it is) which obviously have substantially delayed his plans.

Metric Tensor

woohoo!!! wrote: »

Or maybe the developer is exaggerating, doesn't want to be held up by planning again, considering this is the 4th attempt (or whatever it is) which obviously have substantially delayed his plans.

Definitely. Well mentioned.

masterK

Metric Tensor wrote: »

Definitely. Well mentioned.

I'm certain there is more than an element of truth in that. He tried to tell us if we appealed 100 lads will lose their jobs