Election: Fianna Fáil - pretending we don't remember

jimmycrackcorm

Fann Linn wrote: »

Or maybe FG are so similar, what's the harm?
Children's hospital.
Bailey.
Murphy.
Harris.
National broadband.
Leo.
Etc.
Etc.

The thing about the NBP and NCH is that they'll both be around in decades to come. Ardnacrusha cost a fifth of the country's budget when it was built.

Under FF the health budgets were massively increased by billions annually between the 90s and 2010 yet we still have massive waiting lists. All that money spent largely went on FFs placating the public service pay to win votes.

Those extra billions dwarf the NCH which will probably be used by my great grandchildren 100 years from now.

I also doubt very much that had we a FF government that we would have had the SSM referendum. Martin himself was very slow to back it and the FF core is very conservative.

Loafing Oaf

tjhook wrote: »

Would you absolve FG of responsibility if they had been in power for the years that led to the crash? If they had policies such as "If I have it I'll spend it"?

Perhaps any or all of the opposition parties would have left us in the same boat. Maybe in an even worse situation. But that does not absolve FF, who were in power and were calling the shots. No other party has ever left the country in the state they left it.

Yeah but it takes the edge of animosity towards Fianna Fail. Makes it much more likely that people who rejected FF in 2011 would find their way back to the party in time...

L1011

tom1ie wrote: »

I've no time for FF and I've no time for FF as they are really two sides of the same coin.
However I'm not giving my vote to those on the looney left who want houses for everyone and tax increases to pay for it.
So who the hell do I vote for?
I'm thinking greens and social democrats as they are the two most centre parties remaining when you take fffg out of the equation.
Am I wrong?

Socdems are to the left of Labour, that is their sole reason for existence. OK, that and personality clashes.

_Brian

tjhook wrote: »

Would you absolve FG of responsibility if they had been in power for the years that led to the crash? If they had policies such as "If I have it I'll spend it"?

Perhaps any or all of the opposition parties would have left us in the same boat. Maybe in an even worse situation. But that does not absolve FF, who were in power and were calling the shots. No other party has ever left the country in the state they left it.

FF were in power for a full decade leading up tho the crash. If any other party was in power during this period, people would grab the opportunity to lift some of the blame from FF. Maybe the majority of the blame. But no, it was FF all the way.

Having said that, maybe they have changed. But they don't need to, as long as there are people willing to overlook their responsibility for the bankrupting of the country.

The outcome would have been the same so that tells me they did as good a job as any Irish politician would have done.

I’ll vote for the best candidate in my electoral area even if that happens to be a FF candidate. When another party puts up a better candidate I’ll vote for them.

_Brian

tjhook wrote: »

I remember FG being berated for harping on too much about FF's legacy.

There's quite a bit of difference between bankrupting the country and accepting the support of the people who bankrupted the country. The public gave FF sufficient votes that it was difficult/impossible to form a government without their support.

Anyway, I'm sick of this government, I'd love a change. Preferably a government that has an interest in the concerns of the ordinary PAYE worker. But I'm not holding my breath.

Unless as an ordinary PAYE worker your looking for more taxes, charges and leveis I feel your going to be very disappointed by whoever gets into power.

Sleeper12

GooglePlus wrote:

Genuine question - are they the same Fianna Fáil?

I think the vast majority of FF TDs weren't around 10 years ago. I don't know if that makes them different or not though

Phoebas

Their leader was around - and in the thick of it.

Kermit.de.frog

Voting FF would be like inviting the arsonist who burned down your house back in to the kitchen of your refurbished abode.

Plumbthedepths

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Voting FF would be like inviting the arsonist who burned down your house back in to the kitchen of your refurbished abode.

Or allowing the arsonist who burnt the gaff work for the fire brigade. FG seemed happy enough. Did you miss who was propping up FG?

Kermit.de.frog

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Or allowing the arsonist who burnt the gaff work for the fire brigade. FG seemed happy enough. Did you miss who was propping up FG?

What was the choice?

The Irish people gave a sizeable vote to FF.

With Brexit on the horizon a government had to be formed or there would be no credibility with the EU to bat on our behalf.

The only way to have a government was to have a supply agreement.

That argument is disingenuous and a red herring.

Plumbthedepths

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

What was the choice?

The Irish people gave a sizeable vote to FF.

With Brexit on the horizon a government had to be formed or there would be no credibility with the EU to bat on our behalf.

The only way to have a government was to have a supply agreement.

That argument is disingenuous and a red herring.

32nd Dail sat on the 6th of May 2016, the Brexit vote was the 23rd of June. Brexit was not an issue and at the time no one believed it would pass. Your argument is without credibility tbh.
No getting away from the fact FG were happy for FF's support. Also no party in the Dail after Brexit passed did anything other than support the government in its dealings over Brexit.

Kermit.de.frog

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

32nd Dail sat on the 6th of May 2016, the Brexit vote was the 23rd of June. Brexit was not an issue and at the time no one believed it would pass. Your argument is without credibility tbh.

This is ENTIRELY wrong. Enda Kenny's govt was working with the EU months in advance of the referendum to prepare for an exit.

This is a fact.

Read Tony Connelly's book on it.

A lot of preparation went in to the response well before the referendum.

Plumbthedepths

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

This is ENTIRELY wrong. Enda Kenny's govt was working with the EU months in advance of the referendum to prepare for an exit.

This is a fact.

Read Tony Connelly's book on it.

A lot of preparation went in to the response well before the referendum.

Well one could argue that FF did the responsible thing and allowed FG to form a minority government and supported them throughout Brexit. I won't be voting for FF but your arguments for not voting for them are quite weak to be honest. There is not a hairs breath between the two parties. They really should have merged in 2016 instead of this pretence rivalry and allow a real opposition form.

James Brown

It's the exact same Fianna Fail. How can I say that? Well every time they ruin the place they swap and replace faces, then ruin it again. So I expect much the same.
However, if I had to choose, they are preferable to FG. That said I'll not be voting for either.

sdanseo

I don't buy the blunt argument that FF single handedly launched us into the abyss.

The financial crisis would have happened under any government because almost all Irish politicians of the late 90s and early 00s would have made similar decisions.

Yes they were economically inept, slow and there were three years of disjointed buffoonery under Cowen.
But FG have shown themselves to be no better. They gave Shane Ross a senior minister position and appointed the grandson of a convicted thief with a silver spoon larger than the Ballymun flats as the man in charge of housing reform for crying out loud.

The only reason there was a crash is because the economy was a success in the first place. The celtic tiger might never have happened in the first place if it wasn't for Haughey. Yes he rode us all and took more than his fair share of cream off the top in the process but it doesn't undo the good either.

Irish politics lacks any real visionaries. There are few with the political will to take strides in any direction.
Just look at infrastructure. Multiple parties have spewed propaganda about metros and undergrounds for decades, then shelve it because there's no money, but at the same time build a hospital for four times the amount it should have cost because some eejit thought it had to be in the city.
There's no joined up thinking or actual, menaningful tackling of problems no matter where you look.

Sinn Féin are not an option. Quite literally a bunch of terrorists. But even at that, If they were capable of getting 50-60 seats maybe it might actually be worth a go, just to see if we could break the wheel that is parish pump, stagnant Irish politics.
Labour, Green, any of the small parties or independents will never be able to get anything done at their current sizes.

So we fall back to the big two. And if it's change vs. more of the same, then it's time for a change.

Seth Brundle

GooglePlus wrote: »

Genuine question - are they the same Fianna Fáil?

As I understand it, FF still have not asked the likes of Pee Flynn for the money that was given to the party through him.
Does that indicate anything?

Seth Brundle

seamus wrote: »

Yes. The leader of the party, the deputy leader and many of the front bench were in place during FF's last round in power either as government ministers or other executive positions.

This is an interesting read from 2011...
We need to talk about money, Micheál
To be taken seriously, Fianna Fáil’s new leader must address some problematic aspects of his party’s culture

Shefwedfan

Are FF the same? No

Is anybody the same after the crash? Well no

FG has their chance long enough now to be honest and have made a real pigs ear of it. The excuse in last election was “oh you can’t vote FF because of the crash”, not that they could do anything

It seems like this election it’s back to the same “oh you can’t vote for them because of the crash”

I’m not saying FF are angels and I don’t know who I will vote for but sorry FG have been a disgrace a number of years now, because insurance fraud with not just 1 but 2 of them. Plus the other one years ago so you end up with 3

The mess of the children hospital. Broadband etc etc etc. The list goes on. Varadkar is useless, like his father is a doctor, he worked as health minister. The idea location for children hospital is in his constituency and he still f**ked it up. Then tried and still trying to hide it

Sorry the list is too long

The propaganda posters on boards as well doesn’t fool anyone. Instead of making any good arguments it always goes back to the crash

You have to remember, FF didn’t make people go out and buy a house for 500k when they had no hope every of paying off the house, crash or not. Or get people to buy 5-6 houses to rent. That was pure greed. M

As I said I don’t know which way I will vote. FF do take some blame for crash but so do a lot of others. Going into another election and just voting in FG is silly in my opinion

Seth Brundle

Gael23 wrote: »

The locals last year showed that people have forgiven them

As I understand it, people frequently vote against government parties in local elections

KiKi III

Could we not have one mega thread on the election ffs?

Sleeper12

Kermit.de.frog wrote:

This is ENTIRELY wrong. Enda Kenny's govt was working with the EU months in advance of the referendum to prepare for an exit.

Ah bless.
No one, not even the leave campaign thought that Brexit would win. There was very little preparation nor did there need to be as there was always going to be a two years gap, at the very least, from activation of the article to the actual leaving.

Shefwedfan

PS on the crash, nobody had a f**king clue what was going on in Anglo and they lied till it all fell down. It could have been FG, FF, Greens labour or anyone in government and they would have probably done the same

Anglo fed a pack of lies till they got what they wanted and then it all fell apart but at that stage the government where in the s**t

The problem I see is the lack of jail time for those in Anglo....

uck51js9zml2yt

L1011 wrote: »

Socdems are to the left of Labour, that is their sole reason for existence. OK, that and personality clashes.

You mean the socdem who joined FF after spending years berating them.

McMurphy

Karla Magnificent Smallpox wrote: »

You mean the socdem who joined FF after spending years berating them.

Sounds like fg too.

Seth Brundle

sdanseo wrote: »

I don't buy the blunt argument that FF single handedly launched us into the abyss.

The financial crisis would have happened under any government because almost all Irish politicians of the late 90s and early 00s would have made similar decisions.

The only reason there was a crash is because the economy was a success in the first place. The celtic tiger might never have happened in the first place if it wasn't for Haughey. Yes he rode us all and took more than his fair share of cream off the top in the process but it doesn't undo the good either.

Ireland suffered badly from the global downturn because of a number of factors.
We had a over-dependance on property based taxes and not enough fixed taxes e.g. property tax.
We had a financial regulator who was encouraged to fall asleep at the wheel.
We had politicians who were encouraging people to borrow more (naysayers were told by our Taoiseach to go off and commit suicide).
We happily re-elected annincompetent government which (as usual) led the country through populism and a mistaken belief that nothing could go wrong despite what experts were saying.
As the primary party in power all that time, it was FF's fault we were hammered so badly.

Sleeper12

sdanseo wrote:

I don't buy the blunt argument that FF single handedly launched us into the abyss.

They didn't but their budgets were exactly like FGs budgets since the Troika left. They took risks. The only difference was FG has been lucky in that we haven't had an international crisis. In fact FG were so lucky to have the lowest ever EU interest rates and low oil prices.

I don't see much of a difference between the two parties tbh.

Kermit.de.frog

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Ah bless.
No one, not even the leave campaign thought that Brexit would win. There was very little preparation nor did there need to be as there was always going to be a two years gap, at the very least, from activation of the article to the actual leaving.

You think the "solidarity" with Ireland straight after the vote just happens?

That 26 countries just line up behind one of the smallest countries and that just occurs with no preparation or lobbying?

Kermit.de.frog

Two words - "Galway tent"


Who remembers that stuff?


No other party had a tent for developers as far as I remember.

Shefwedfan

Seth Brundle wrote: »

As the primary party in power all that time, it was FF's fault we were hammered so badly.

I don’t remember at any stage prior to the crash any party, or any party leader coming out and saying what FF was doing was bad. Giving an alternative of warning the public

In reality any party could have been running the show and they would have done the exact same.

It’s great in hindsight looking back and blaming someone. But in reality if any party had actually called out concerns they could stand on a pedestal but they all where in the same mess

JohnnyFlash

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Two words - "Galway tent"


Who remembers that stuff?


No other party had a tent for developers as far as I remember.

Or holding their Ard Fheis out in Mansfield’s place in Citywest.