Election: Fianna Fáil - pretending we don't remember

Seth Brundle

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I don’t remember at any stage prior to the crash any party, or any party leader coming out and saying what FF was doing was bad. Giving an alternative of warning the public

In reality any party could have been running the show and they would have done the exact same.

It’s great in hindsight looking back and blaming someone. But in reality if any party had actually called out concerns they could stand on a pedestal but they all where in the same mess

It doesn't matter what the opposition say as they are not in power.
FF were in charge and through a mixture if incompetence and populism they put all the eggs into one basket.
You can't blame FG, SF or anyone else for not shouting loud enough as a reason for FF making choices. That's just excusing FF for what they did.

Shefwedfan

Seth Brundle wrote: »

It doesn't matter what the opposition say as they are not in power.
FF were in charge and through a mixture if incompetence and populism they put all the eggs into one basket.
You can't blame FG, SF or anyone else for not shouting loud enough as a reason for FF making choices. That's just excusing FF for what they did.

Oh my God.....


So you expect the opposition to say nothing and just sit like a shower watching it all fall down?

If FG or SF or any of the other parties where aware of the crash coming and said nothing then they should shoulder more blame than FF who hadnt a clue it was coming.

Truth is none of the parties seen it coming so they are just lucky they didnt get into power. As I said FF should shoulder blame but all the parties sat in government building, all of them took home huge wages and none of them called out the sh*t was about to hit the fan.

Do you really believe that or just hate FF?

Kermit.de.frog

FF were in government - they weren't.

Simple as that.

Idbatterim

cant keep posting similar comments in multiple threads, but FF are more likely to land us in **** again in my opinion. FG are a crap option, but I feel the others are worse. If I voted FF and they wreck the place again, can any of us even contemplate that, if we vote them in and certainly bring it on ourselves this time? Another bust, years of doom, gloom, **** talk, finger pointing, listening to the same arguments, that we have already heard to death?

The electorate were screaming for everything FF threw at them during the boom and I expect FG would have done the same. Many people made absolutely idiotic financial decisions during the boom, lets not forget that!

Uriel.

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Or allowing the arsonist who burnt the gaff work for the fire brigade. FG seemed happy enough. Did you miss who was propping up FG?

Yeah but was the alternative. A **** show of Government or multiple elections and Governments in a short space of time while brexit discussions were going on around us?

The reality of it is, no one else was willing to or could step up to the plate.

Shefwedfan

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

FF were in government - they weren't.

Simple as that.

If anything the crash was far from simple......

Plumbthedepths

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Two words - "Galway tent"


Who remembers that stuff?


No other party had a tent for developers as far as I remember.

You're correct no other party had the tent. FG didn't need the tent they had Denis. Labour didn't need the tent they had a portion of all union dues courtesy of SIPTU.

Shefwedfan

Idbatterim wrote: »

cant keep posting similar comments in multiple threads, but FF are more likely to land us in **** again in my opinion. FG are a crap option, but I feel the others are worse. If I voted FF and they wreck the place again, can any of us even contemplate that, if we vote them in and certainly bring it on ourselves this time? Another bust, years of doom, gloom, **** talk, finger pointing, listening to the same arguments, that we have already heard to death?

The electorate were screaming for everything FF threw at them during the boom and I expect FG would have done the same. Many people made absolutely idiotic financial decisions during the boom, lets not forget that!

This....

IN reality if FF tried to slow down the economy they would have been blood on the streets in Ireland


People building 3000sqft houses with no planning. Buying houses costing 500k and only having income of 50k. Stupid s**t like this was going on. FF didn't push people to do that.


Look at people now, FG in power and people are giving out becuase they cant get a 100% mortgage again. Do we blame FG for that?

Plumbthedepths

Uriel. wrote: »

The reality of it is, no one else was willing to or could step up to the plate.

As I said loathe them whatever,FF did the responsible thing and put the country first and supported a minority FG government. Something alot of their membership and supporters were set against. Martin did the right thing.
However the last four years have demonstrated how alike the two parties are. They should cop on and merge.Civil war traditional rivalry is BS now.

Phoebas

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Look at people now, FG in power and people are giving out becuase they cant get a 100% mortgage again. Do we blame FG for that?

Yes.
FG gave the Central Bank a mandate to promote financial stability, they came up with those lending rules and the Government accepted them despite pressure especially from the retail banks.
Unpopular with many people for sure, but necessary.

It's called responsible government.

Loafing Oaf

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

FF were in government - they weren't.

Simple as that.

If you're looking to engage with people contemplating voting FF and persuading them not to, this is clearly the way to go about it:rolleyes:

Jinglejangle69

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/state-waste-of-10bn-in-10-years-26326371.html




Article from 2009, yeah Fianna Fáil are definitely the better option and nothing was their fault!!!!






FIANNA FÁIL waste of €10bn in 10 years
Investigation uncovers decade of reckless Government spending


More than €1bn of taxpayers' money has been wasted every year since FF came to power 10 years ago, a Sunday Independent investigation reveals.

It's official, the good times are over and we all have to tighten our belts.

We have been saying it for months, but last Thursday Finance Minister and Tanaiste Brian Cowen finally declared at his pre-Budget Estimates that the economy has "peaked", is now slowing down and that things have become very tight.

As he shifted uncomfortably in front of the cameras, he told us that 2007 represents a "turning point for the Irish economy".

We should not be overly worried but, baby, the party for now is over.


However, as the economy has ground to a halt, and the money dries up, we are asking, what do we have to show for a decade of unprecedented wealth?

A third-class road and rail network, hospitals which are killing healthy people who enter them, and primary children who either face going to school in a prefab or miles away from home are just some of the hallmarks of this Government's waste since it took power in 1997.

This week, the Sunday Independent conducted an in-depth investigation into the endemic waste of our taxes by Fianna Fail.

We can show that since FF took office a decade ago, more than €1bn of taxpayers' money has been wasted annually.

A list of failed projects, delayed works, bloated bureaucracy and poor management have all led to more than €10bn being squandered in the last 10 years.

Taxpayers' money has been squandered by every Government department including €100m on the abandoned Stadium Campus Ireland project, the €471m overrun on the Luas, the €150m overspend on the Port Tunnel, as well as almost a €1bn wasted on the Government's botched de-centralisation policy.


Figures obtained from the Department of Finance, opposition parties, the Central Statistics Office and the Central Bank, collated by the Sunday Independent, detail for the first time exactly how inefficient the Government has become during Bertie Ahern's tenure as Taoiseach.

The total Government spend has more than trebled from €15bn in 1997 to a projected €51bn next year, announced by Cowen during the week.

Opposition parties, hospital patient groups and leading economists have said that institutional waste during a time of plenty and the failure to deliver a first world infrastructure is endangering Ireland's competitiveness internationally.

One of the key areas is the health service. Its funding has increased from €3.2bn in 1997 to almost €13bn this year. Despite this massive injection since 1997, the Health Service Executive, which employs 70,000 people and 36,000 indirectly, is now closing wards and has introduced a freeze on new employees.


The closure of a 10-bed ward in Nenagh hospital is just one of a number of high-profile ward shutdowns in recent weeks. The Irish Patients Association has said cuts and ward closures currently being enforced by the HSE are unforgivable.

Steve McMahon of the Irish Patients Association said: "It is an organisation rife with institutionalised bureaucracy. When they formed the HSE in 2005 they should have introduced a redundancy package and cleared their ranks.

"At least 60 per cent of the cost of the HSE is staff, and there are too many managers in the system."

McMahon also said that with the slowdown in the economy, budgets will be cut and the ward closures that have occurred in recent weeks will become more common.

Another example of waste and bad management was the PPARS payroll system fiasco in 2005 which is currently "suspended until further notice". The cost for the failed system was at least €160m.

Added to this was the €1bn plus pay-out to nursing home patients and their families, who were wrongfully and unlawfully charged.

Analysis PAGE 30

In the wake of this, Fine Gael's Richard Bruton was heavily critical of Mary Harney for effectively abdicating all control of the health service to the HSE, which is not politically accountable.

Transport is another area that has seen endemic waste, over spending and bad management since 1997. Spending on transport has risen sharply from €151m in 1997 to €2.8bn this year.

Apart from the overspends and underestimation in the cost of the Port Tunnel and the two Luas lines that don't link up, and the chaos that is the M50, Ireland's road building projects since 1997 have collectively cost €3.2bn more than what was originally forecast, according to our figures.

Jimmy Quinn of the Irish Road Haulage Association said that the ambitious capital building projects have begun 10 years too late and up until recently were blighted by poor management lacking vision, which ultimately has led to the public paying over the odds.

He added: "The M50 has been a disaster and the lack of vision and forward planning by not building three lanes to begin with is and has been costing us dearly."

Quinn also highly objects to the use of tolling, particularly on the M50, describing them as a treble tax on his members who use the roads most often.

Dublin Airport is another example of poor management by the Government.

Successive Fianna Fail transport ministers have failed to anticipate the growth in numbers leading to years of suffering for passengers. Even the Pier D and the Terminal 2 developments, which are costing the exchequer €2bn, are likely to be operating a full capacity when they open.

Friends First chief economist Jim Power says Ireland also needs a second airport -- and he believes the refusal of Mr Ahern and the Cabinet to look beyond the slow development of Dublin Airport has cost the country dearly.

"Away from the politics of north Dublin, Ireland should have a second international hub airport close to the midlands where there is plenty of room for future development.

"The airport should be properly integrated with adequate rail and bus links. If it was me I wouldn't build one out in Dublin," he said.

Meanwhile, the Department of Education, which has seen its annual budget rise from €2.9bn in 1997 to €8.3bn this year, has failed to drastically alter class sizes or ensure adequate facilities for children around the country.

Cases like Laytown national school in 2006 and the more recent example of pupils in Maryboro national school, Portlaoise, being educated in prefabs shows clearly how the system is failing.

The Government has also failed to meet the demand in Dublin satellite towns where parents have little or no option regarding schooling.

One example of this is Gorey, Co Wexford which has a population of 30,000 and one school with 1,700 pupils.

Officially, the average class size at primary level is 24 but numbers vary greatly between rural and urban areas.

In some areas class sizes are regularly over 30.

The National Parents Council described the Government's record on education and the provision of adequate buildings and resources as highly questionable.

In contrast to the €1bn waste mounted up by the FF Government annually, according to figures from the Department of Finance, a drop of one per cent in income tax would cost the exchequer about €800m every year.

Much of the spending splurge from public coffers has gone on increased staff numbers and wages.

Since 2002, the number of public sector employees has risen dramatically by 69,000 to 308,000. The total cost of the public sector pay bill for this year will be €17.5bn.

The problem will get worse as a second round of benchmarking is due to get under way next year, further adding to the cost to the taxpayer for running the country.

Benchmarking was introduced as an incentive to improve performance, but Fine Gael yesterday described its implantation as disastrous.

Mr Cowen admitted to the Sunday Independent that benchmarking had not been completely successful and the taxpayer had not gotten decent value for money.

It is a damning indictment of FF and the PDs that such a poor return for our investment has been made and we are still playing catch-up.

All the while, we have paid over the odds. Some have died as a result in our hospitals; thousands of hours have been wasted sitting in traffic and children have been denied their right to a decent education.

So well done Bertie, well done Brian, and well done Mary -- thanks for nothing.

Grab All Association

_Brian wrote: »

I for one do not beleive that FF were responsible for the crash, during their last term in government Enda Kenny consistently berated them for lack of spending, to much regulation and budgets that were too conservative.

Exactly, October 2008 heading into recession (budget 2009) the rates of JSA/DA etc were increased by only €6.50 vs the usual €10. Kenny and Co were calling for more.

Kermit.de.frog

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

If you're looking to engage with people contemplating voting FF and persuading them not to, this is clearly the way to go about it:rolleyes:

Persuasion shouldn't be needed.

Have people just come out of a coma or something?

Do they genuinely not remember what the previous FF government led this country in to?

Necro

I'll never vote FF as long as there is any remnant of the old guard from 07 left.

Until they have a total clean out of anyone that was in office at the time of the crash I will not even put them as a preference on my ballot paper.

Time for a change FF? Then kick out the shysters that sat and fiddled whilst the country burned around them

Sleeper12

Jinglejangle69 wrote:

State waste of €10bn in 10 years Investigation uncovers decade of reckless Government spending

Add up Irish water, rural broadband that we will never own, children's hospital etc. FG don't have a better track record in fairness

Loafing Oaf

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Do they genuinely not remember what the previous FF government led this country in to?

Yeah I'm sure there's loads of people reading an Internet politics forum who don't know anything about Fianna Fail's past record

ILoveYourVibes

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Yeah I'm sure there's loads of people reading an Internet politics forum who don't know anything about Fianna Fail's past record

A lot of people don't actually.
The crash was 12 yrs ago.

If you are 18 and voting you were 6.

Plumbthedepths

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/state-waste-of-10bn-in-10-years-26326371.html




Article from 2009, yeah Fianna Fáil are definitely the better option and nothing was their fault!!!!






FIANNA FÁIL waste of €10bn in 10 years
Investigation uncovers decade of reckless Government spending


More than €1bn of taxpayers' money has been wasted every year since FF came to power 10 years ago, a Sunday Independent investigation reveals.

It's official, the good times are over and we all have to tighten our belts.

We have been saying it for months, but last Thursday Finance Minister and Tanaiste Brian Cowen finally declared at his pre-Budget Estimates that the economy has "peaked", is now slowing down and that things have become very tight.

As he shifted uncomfortably in front of the cameras

It is a damning indictment of FF and the PDs that such a poor return for our investment has been made and we are still playing catch-up.

All the while, we have paid over the odds. Some have died as a result in our hospitals; thousands of hours have been wasted sitting in traffic and children have been denied their right to a decent education.

So well done Bertie, well done Brian, and well done Mary -- thanks for nothing.

What's this the 9th or 10th time you posted that wall of text?
Thankfully there has been no waste under FG, ;-)

flazio

So depending on how far back I want to remember,
I can't forget, FF bursting the Tiger bubble,
FG causing a housing and homeless crisis*
Labour helping FG with same
SF supporting the early release of Garda killers,
.

I'm going to have to forgive one of these parties for their past misdeeds surely?

*Health trolley crisis I'm not apportioning to any particular party as it's been going on back as far as at least Mary Harney if not further back.

RobbingBandit

Lord Mayor Paul McAuliffe is running in Finglas Ballymun area last year he gave Dublin bus a prestigious award anyone living in Finglas Ballymun area that uses public transport and votes for him deserves to be locked up. I'm tempted to print up a load of posters putting this info under his

A vote for this guy is a vote for union mafia cronies and poor inadequate services to the masses.

Kermit.de.frog

flazio wrote: »

FG causing a housing and homeless crisis*

This problem stems from the collapse of the housing market and the banks caused by FF.

Jinglejangle69

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Add up Irish water, rural broadband that we will never own, children's hospital etc. FG don't have a better track record in fairness

Doesnt come near to 10 billion and you know it.

Sorry this is a thread about FF.

There is plenty of FG threads for your whataboutery.

Jinglejangle69

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

What's this the 9th or 10th time you posted that wall of text?
Thankfully there has been no waste under FG, ;-)

And?

Its a FF thread.

You posted something many times in a thread last week, bumping it up to every page.

Plumbthedepths

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

This problem stems from the collapse of the housing market and the banks caused by FF.

As I said I won't be voting for FF but to claim they caused the bank collapse is revisionist nonsense.

https://www.historyextra.com/period/modern/financial-crisis-crash-explained-facts-causes/

Plumbthedepths

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Doesnt come near to 10 billion and you know it.

Sorry this is a thread about FF.

There is plenty of FG threads for your whataboutery.

Are you trying to mod the page,it a discussion forum and rarely does any thread stay strictly within the parameters of the title.

Jinglejangle69

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Are you trying to mod the page,cuts a discussion forum and rarely does any thread stay strictly within the parameters of the title.

??

sdanseo

Phoebas wrote: »

Yes.
FG gave the Central Bank a mandate to promote financial stability, they came up with those lending rules and the Government accepted them despite pressure especially from the retail banks.
Unpopular with many people for sure, but necessary.

It's called responsible government.

Completely correct. Possibly Fine Gael's finest achievement will be to have told taxpayers to be more financially responsible while they squandered billions on overpriced hospitals, extortionate broadband connections and handouts to subsidise their mates in the housing industry. Meanwhile, those that either don't pay tax or couldn't be bothered working at all are actively disincentivized from doing so because they'll be handed a house in Dundrum for nought or close to it.

All this while the number of homeless people and people who cannot afford to move out of the family home has increased despite a government action plan to fix the problem three years ago.

No one thinks FF are a golden ticket or would magically solve these issues. They are likely close to just as inept. But it's been nine years of high profile broken promises. Time to give someone else (honestly, anyone else) a go at this point.

Kermit.de.frog

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

As I said I won't be voting for FF but to claim they caused the bank collapse is revisionist nonsense.

https://www.historyextra.com/period/modern/financial-crisis-crash-explained-facts-causes/

They prime pumped the economy when they should have taken action to cool the stampede including introducing taxes on property and increasing stamp duty.

They didn't. They let the housing market go out of control and blow up in everyone's face.

They ran a budget which was increasingly hopelessly dependent on property related income.

But yeah lets all blame the other parties :rolleyes:

If the Irish people let this crowd in again then they deserve all they are going to get.

Jinglejangle69

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

As I said I won't be voting for FF but to claim they caused the bank collapse is revisionist nonsense.

https://www.historyextra.com/period/modern/financial-crisis-crash-explained-facts-causes/

So who was meant to be keeping an eye on the banks as they wrecklessly lent money and needed a bailout to the tune of 160 billion euro?

Moses??