Election: Fianna Fáil - pretending we don't remember

Sleeper12

charlie14 wrote:

The regulator had nothing to do with the Children Hospital. Where did you get that idea ? The ever rising cost of the Children Hospital is because of sheer political incompetence. Nothing else.

FG were offered a get out of jail free card by the contractors within the last year. We had a chance to move it to a green site just off the M50 but FG being FG wouldn't admit its grave mistake with our finances and just plowed ahead

expectationlost

ff were corrupt and screwing the country long before the crash

McMurphy

expectationlost wrote: »

ff were corrupt and screwing the country long before the crash

And FG continued to do it when "we were nearly eating out of bins".

blanch152

Sleeper12 wrote: »

FG were offered a get out of jail free card by the contractors within the last year. We had a chance to move it to a green site just off the M50 but FG being FG wouldn't admit its grave mistake with our finances and just plowed ahead

The private developers offered that to the FF government 15 years ago before the crash. People forget that FF dithered over building a children’s hospital for nearly a decade, at least FG are getting it built.

charlie14

blanch152 wrote: »

The private developers offered that to the FF government 15 years ago before the crash. People forget that FF dithered over building a children’s hospital for nearly a decade, at least FG are getting it built.

Getting it built at a price approaching 3 times the original estimate and nobody knows where it will end.


.... and people wonder how we have a housing crisis...

Shefwedfan

blanch152 wrote: »

The private developers offered that to the FF government 15 years ago before the crash. People forget that FF dithered over building a children’s hospital for nearly a decade, at least FG are getting it built.

Pointless building a hospital and then have no staff and patients are dying while trying to get to the hospital in traffic

Onky a f**king lunatic would have thought that site was a good idea....for that alone FG should be fired as far away as possible

seamus

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

No getting away from the fact FG were happy for FF's support.

I'm not saying this is incorrect.

But there's also no ignoring the simple maths here. FG had the plurality. They had the largest party in the Dáil, and therefore had the primary obligation to attempt to form a government.

"We won't do business with FF under any circumstances" is not a rational position when FF are the second largest party in the Dáil.

When their attempts to form a majority coalition failed, they are democratically obligated to try and form a minority government. And FF were the only game in town.

This is how democracy works. It was that or call another election, and basically get the same result all over again.

Do you think that FG should have just kept calling elections until someone could form a majority, or should they have grasped the nettle and gone into power, even with FF support?

As it is, it's pretty clear that FG called the shots on basically all policy. FF were terrified of any elections until the local elections gave them some hope, so they reluctantly backed up FG.

Sleeper12

blanch152 wrote:

The private developers offered that to the FF government 15 years ago before the crash. People forget that FF dithered over building a children’s hospital for nearly a decade, at least FG are getting it built.

Personally I'd rather they were still dithering. A three billion hospital in the wrong place, on land we don't own, isn't the answer. I'd much rather wait another few years and build it on a greenfield site that we do own, off the M50 for a third of the cost.

Isn't this the site where we are hoping that the pope does his magic juju so it's no longer a Catholic run hospital? Or am I mixing it up with another hospital that we need the church out of?

jimmycrackcorm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

This....

IN reality if FF tried to slow down the economy they would have been blood on the streets in Ireland


People building 3000sqft houses with no planning. Buying houses costing 500k and only having income of 50k. Stupid s**t like this was going on. FF didn't push people to do that.


Look at people now, FG in power and people are giving out becuase they cant get a 100% mortgage again. Do we blame FG for that?

Isn't that just a great contrast between FF and FG. FF would have people buying overpriced houses again and sales of brown envelopes would be skyrocketing.

Sleeper12

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

Isn't that just a great contrast between FF and FG. FF would have people buying overpriced houses again and sales of brown envelopes would be skyrocketing.

You are correct. We are far better off paying overpriced rent on property well never own. Not to mention the 11 to 12 thousand homeless people. Yes these are the good days

Plumbthedepths

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Isn't that just a great contrast between FF and FG. FF would have people buying overpriced houses again and sales of brown envelopes would be skyrocketing.

Seriously do you honestly believe FG politicians are incorruptible or have not acted corruptly? You don't think house prices are overpriced at present?
If you turely believe that to be the case can I ask do you look forward to Santa's visits?

The Phantom Jipper

Important to bear in mind that some of the newer candidates may not have been in office in the last Fianna Fail government but they saw what happened and decided that was something they wanted to be a part of. They can go to hell.

jimmycrackcorm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

As I said I won't be voting for FF but to claim they caused the bank collapse is revisionist nonsense.

https://www.historyextra.com/period/modern/financial-crisis-crash-explained-facts-causes/

Nobody is claiming that. But FF picked the populist option to not constrain house price increases. Telling us that anytime earning about the dangers should go commit suicide.

jimmycrackcorm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Seriously do you honestly believe FG politicians are incorruptible or have not acted corruptly? You don't think house prices are overpriced at present?
If you turely believe that to be the case can I ask do you look forward to Santa's visits?

My ex just bought a house and was able to because they were stable and dropping. FF politicians have a long and ingrained history of corruption.
But we could look forward to FF ensuring that house prices drooping again, but the thing is people don't have jobs to pray for them again.

cryptocurrency

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Short answer yes.
Yeah they may put some of the newer TDs like Chambers or MacSharry out as the 'fresh' face of the party but there's no change in reality

List below are TD's who served during the Ahern years, most of them as ministers. That's also not including those who 'retired' in disgrace in 2011 but subsequently had a relative elected to the seat (e.g. Brian/Barry Cowen)

Micheal Martin 1989 - present
Michael McGrath 2007- present
Dara Colleary 2007-present
Thomas Byrne 2007-11. 2016-present
Niall Collins 2007-present
John Curran 2002-2011, 2016 - present
Timmy Dooley 2007-present
Sean Fleming 2007-present
Pat The Cope Gallagher 1981-97, 2002-2009, 2016-present
Sean Haughey 1992-2011, 2016 - present
Billy Kelleher 1997-2019
Michael Moynihan 1997-present
John McGuinness 1997-present
Darragh O'Brien 2007-2011 , 2016 - present
Eamonn O'Cuiv 1997-present
Willie O'Dea 1992-present
Sean O'Fearghail 2002-present
Eamonn Scanlon 2007-2011, 2016-present
Brendan Smith 1992-present
Bobby Aylward 2007-2011. 2015-present

how can you blame lads who started in 2007?

Plumbthedepths

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Nobody is claiming that. But FF picked the populist option to not constrain house price increases. Telling us that anytime earning about the dangers should go commit suicide.

I suggest you read back it was claimed FF collapsed the. Banks.

Ulysses Gaze

is_that_so wrote: »

Martin is still there and was there through all of it. He handily got himself Foreign Affairs during the worst of it. The bubble they fed by stoking construction. At one stage IIRC it was at 14% of the economy, almost double an average construction sector. McCreevy did try to put a brake of sorts on spending, muttered a warning and he got dispatched to Europe. So yeah they do own that part of it. They also cost us a packet long-term with benchmarking with no great effort to get any productivity improvements out of it. Ironic that it eventually was a Labour minister in Howlin, who was tasked with PS reform.

It was closer to 25% GDP.

purifol0

"Fianna Fail didnt cause the banking collapse" Mmm hmm. Google "Fianna fail light touch regulation" and see what comes up. Basically they encouraged reckless lending. I was a young lad in short trousers getting unsolicited offers of 30k loans in the post. It was crazy.

The banking debt was heaped onto the tax payer, that was also Fianna Fail and caused them to be booted out wholesale.

But the kicker is that the banking debt is not even the reason I'll never vote for FF, it was the mass buying of votes that did it for me.
FF bought the entire public sector vote by basically offering them lotto money for the same jobs they already had. They did this several times (benchmarking) with zero consideration on how the private sector taxpayers were going to be able to afford to pay for it (nevermind was it even fair). And now we're 200Billion euro in debt, and every single tax increase that comes our way, no matter what its called (sugar tax/carbon/NOx emission tax/Universal Social Charge) is simply used to continue paying the public sector waaay over the odds.

That's why schools are crumbling but newly retired teachers are minted.
It's why Gards marry Nurses and get instant approval for mortgages in their 20's.
It's why in 2009 when the masses employed in the private sector had lost their jobs or emigrated or had to go on an internship, the public sector got their annual raises (increments) as if nothing had happened.

And its left us with the situation that whoever promises the public sector unions the most money will win a seat at Dáil Eireann. Many of the voting public dont know this though and will continue to wonder aloud "but who keeps voting for Fianna Fáil?".

My vote would go to anyone brave enough to make all public sector employees payslips public (includes politicians,judiaciary,retirees), alas none will.

James Brown

The Phantom Jipper wrote: »

Important to bear in mind that some of the newer candidates may not have been in office in the last Fianna Fail government but they saw what happened and decided that was something they wanted to be a part of. They can go to hell.

Preach!
They signed up to the Fianna Fail we all know. Who looks at FF's record, likely recent and under Biffo, and says, "I like the cut of their jib"? Nobody worth voting for.

tom1ie

BarryD2 wrote: »

You see FF & FG incorporate parts of the Greens and SDs - they aim to be all things to as many people as possible. The SDs are grand but they're a party of two TDs, with two leaders... could be gone tomorrow. The Greens are around longer and I used to vote for them and might still do, but they are increasingly an urban party and many of their admirable policies assume that everyone lives in large towns & cities.

They are definitely an urban party, I would like to see them get the transport portfolio.
They need to win a few seats though to have some sort of power if they went in as a junior party.
They'll be anihalated again if FF get in as main party and the greens don't get enough of a say as junior coalition party.
They will bring in some form of water charge though.

Seth Brundle

purifol0 wrote: »

It's why Gards marry Nurses and get instant approval for mortgages in their 20's.

This doesn't happen :rolleyes:

purifol0 wrote: »

It's why in 2009 when the masses employed in the private sector had lost their jobs or emigrated or had to go on an internship, the public sector got their annual raises (increments) as if nothing had happened.

Some did, most AFAIK did not.

purifol0 wrote: »

My vote would go to anyone brave enough to make all public sector employees payslips public (includes politicians,judiaciary,retirees), alas none will.

Public sector pay is largely transparent with rates available online...
Civil Service Pay Scales
Teacher Salary Scale
Nursing/Midwifery Salary Scales
Pay Grades for HSE Staff

Google can be helpful here

_Kaiser_

I've said it before, I'll say it again.

All this outrage and history lessons because FF look to be on course to lead the next Government is misdirected.

The reason this is the case is because FG have once again reminded the electorate that they are even worse for the country in the long run, with the result being that they've made FF electable again after the crash and recession.

That's some achievement for a party that was given a mandate to make the hard decisions (painful as they might be) in 2011, but instead pissed it away in favour of the same waste, dodgy dealings, incompetence and corruption that got us to that point.

FF were at the helm when things went south and bear the responsibility for much of that, but do we really, honestly, think that things would have been any different under FG?
Forgetting for a minute that this was a GLOBAL event, and that Ireland was particularly exposed because of our very open economy, given what we've seen over the last few years particularly and the electioneering promises of tax cuts etc that FG are at now I reckon the end result would have been much the same regardless - possibly worse given the mess FG have made of housing, health, infrastructure/transport and the cost of living generally since.

FF may have their Galway tent, but FG have their hangers on too as we all know. Last time out there was the mobile license scandal. This time it was siteserv, the selling off of property at knock down rates to investment funds, and the aforementioned children's hospital and broadband scheme - almost bottomless pits of lost/wasted taxpayer money.

I'm not saying that FF are much better - history has shown that they're not - but given the choices we have, unless you really want to give SF or the alphabet soup left a turn, they're the "lesser of two evils" unfortunately - hence why they are favorites to lead the next Government. That's all on FG, and it's not the first time it's happened either.

If you're unhappy about that state of affairs, the answer isn't to blame other voters for wanting a change, it's to ask your local FG candidate "how could you let this happen? How did you manage to piss away the responsibility and opportunity you were given to actually move the country forward?"

FG - making FF electable again!

Loafing Oaf

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

but given the choices we have, unless you really want to give SF or the alphabet soup left a turn, they're the "lesser of two evils" unfortunately -

We have the choices we have, ultimately, because voters keep choosing them. If centrist and right-leaning voters really wanted an alternative to FF and FG somebody would set one up and it would achieve success.

_Kaiser_

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

We have the choices we have, ultimately, because voters keep choosing them. If centrist and right-leaning voters really wanted an alternative to FF and FG somebody would set one up and it would achieve success.

I thought that was the hope with the Social Democrats? Unfortunately it turns out they're no different either with dodgy candidate selection and a religious ethos out of step with Ireland 2020.

You are right though. Ultimately our politicians are reflections of ourselves and our society and as I've said before too, a big part of the problem is there's still too many people who quietly admit to themselves that they would probably do exactly the same things given the opportunity.

We as a electorate need to start looking beyond "what's in it for ME", beyond our parochialism, and start thinking about what's best for the country - even if it's unpopular.

If we don't, I fear we'll be increasingly left behind and marginalised in not just the EU, but the wider world as well.

In fairness, we've only been at this governance stuff for less than 100 years and so mistakes were inevitable, but it's time to grow up if we want to sit at the big boy tables going forward.

Loafing Oaf

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I thought that was the hope with the Social Democrats? Unfortunately it turns out they're no different either with dodgy candidate selection and a religious ethos out of step with Ireland 2020.

I'm sure they would position themselves as well to the left of FF and FG and would be targeting much the same constituency as Labour and the Greens. Not sure what you mean by the 'religious ethos'

Idbatterim

good post above Kaiser, but I honestly think the cost we pay with FG, may be better than with FF. Its all speculation, non of us know for sure. I would prefer slower, steadier growth and less boom, bust! FF are more likely to give us that in my opinion, and it just leads to bigger problems...

I had contemplated voting for FF and its hard to believe I am saying that, but its a reflection of FG. HOWEVER they are all absolutely useless , inept fools. All of them! I'm thinking its probably best to stick with the pathetic devil we know!

Is any candidate running on any different platform? or are they all competing for the exact same space? same old crap! same old failure! note how they are all out looking for your vote now, what have they done over the last few years though? these morons, objected to any development in their area, objected to bus connects, objected dublin metro! These people looking for your votes, the system, the parties, they are all the problem! Blatantly not the solution!

Kermit.de.frog

Today's headline

Massive rise in emigration as 40,000 left Ireland in 2010




Almost 70,000 Irish workers left Irish shores during 2010

Irish emigration is now at its highest level since before the Famine with 111 quitting Ireland each and every day according to official figures.

The government’s Central Statistics office has confirmed that emigration has more than doubled in the past two years with over four thousand people seeking a new life in America alone in the period covered.

The vast majority of those emigrating are aged between 15 and 44 with Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand their likely destinations.

“You’d have to go back to the 1800s to get levels like that,” said CSO spokesperson Deirdre Cullen.

#fiannafail #peoplefleeinginterror #countrydestroyed #nohope #neverforget

McMurphy

"Today's headline"


From 2011.

Giz a go on your time machine please.

Kermit.de.frog

It's a headline from that time every day between now and the election :P

Plumbthedepths

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Today's headline



#fiannafail #peoplefleeinginterror #countrydestroyed #nohope #neverforget

Micheal Noonan said young people like to go aboard for experience, i'll have a look for the article.

Got it.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/family-fury-as-noonan-says-young-emigrate-for-lifestyle-26813027.html