Transgender person wins compo for job interview

keano_afc

Spotted this intriguing story from north of the border this morning.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/debenhams-pays-9k-to-transgender-newry-woman-after-job-bias-case-38865784.html

The whole episode sounds outrageous, especially this bit:

"I left the interview room to walk through a canteen full of gawpers and starers, almost like people ready to burn the monster."

Isn't this setting a dangerous precedent? There seems to be absolutely no evidence of discrimination, apart from an "anonymous" letter. As far as I can see, Debenhams cut their losses and decided £9k was a small price to pay to avoid a court case and negative publicity.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

She was asked for her birth cert in the interview?

NSAman

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

She was asked for her birth cert in the interview?

Yeah, that struck me as weird too.... who does that?

osarusan

Limelight seems like the Belfast place to be.

super_furry

Never ever heard of anyone being asked for birth cert at an interview, much less for a shop-floor interview. Something dodgy there alright.

seamus

keano_afc wrote: »

Isn't this setting a dangerous precedent? There seems to be absolutely no evidence of discrimination, apart from an "anonymous" letter. As far as I can see, Debenhams cut their losses and decided £9k was a small price to pay to avoid a court case and negative publicity.

The fact that Debenhams settled instead of fighting it would indicate that they found internal evidence of discrimination and wanted to make this go away as quickly as possible.

So, no, I don't think this sets any kind of precedent at all.

I'm not sure the "birth cert" thing is all that weird. Companies who hire a lot of front-line staff will often make offers very quickly, so they'll ask candidates to arrive with their documentation in hand. This saves any back-and-forths getting details for someone they want to hire.

In the Republic you're usually asked for a copy of your passport, but a birth cert will suffice too.

KevRossi

super_furry wrote: »

Never ever heard of anyone being asked for birth cert at an interview, much less for a shop-floor interview. Something dodgy there alright.

Yeah, birth cert is odd. I've had to produce a passport at the past two jobs to prove I have residency, they would not have accepted a birth cert. And I look and sound as west of Ireland as you can get.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

seamus wrote: »

The fact that Debenhams settled instead of fighting it would indicate that they found internal evidence of discrimination and wanted to make this go away as quickly as possible.

So, no, I don't think this sets any kind of precedent at all.

I'm not sure the "birth cert" thing is all that weird. Companies who hire a lot of front-line staff will often make offers very quickly, so they'll ask candidates to arrive with their documentation in hand. This saves any back-and-forths getting details for someone they want to hire.

In the Republic you're usually asked for a copy of your passport, but a birth cert will suffice too.

They settled without accepting liability which could as much be read as “We don’t want to deal with inevitable bad publicity if we don’t settle”.

It’s possible the anonymous email was damning though. It may have contained insider information that lent it weight.

victor8600

keano_afc wrote: »

...There seems to be absolutely no evidence of discrimination....

I don't know what is the tradition in NI, but in the Republic I had never had to show neither my birth cert, nor my passport during any job interview. Documents were taken care of later by the HR.

So, the evidence: (A) the anonymous e-mail, (B) the weird request of a birth cert, (C) the fact that she did not get the job even though she sold something during the interview, and (D) her own view that the interview was discriminatory.

As you said, Debenhams cut their losses. If this went before the court, she would have likely won more.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

victor8600 wrote: »

I don't know what is the tradition in NI, but in the Republic I had never had to show neither my birth cert, nor my passport during any job interview. Documents were taken care of later by the HR.

So, the evidence: (A) the anonymous e-mail, (B) the weird request of a birth cert, (C) the fact that she did not get the job even though she sold something during the interview, and (D) her own view that the interview was discriminatory.

As you said, Debenhams cut their losses. If this went before the court, she would have likely won more.

On this. There may have only been one position. Maybe somebody else also sold something during their interview.

The canteen comment sounds very overdramatic.

osarusan

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

The canteen comment sounds very overdramatic.

Yeah, I can't see why anybody in the canteen would even know, seeing as how it was only revealed to the interviewer/interview team in the interview room a few minutes earlier.

victor8600

osarusan wrote: »

Yeah, I can't see why anybody in the canteen would even know, seeing as how it was only revealed to the interviewer/interview team in the interview room a few minutes earlier.

WhatsApp. Also the article does not say that only few minutes have passed. It might have been an hour just as well.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

On this. There may have only been one position. Maybe somebody else also sold something during their interview....

Well of course. A discrimination during a job interview is usually very difficult to prove, unless someone on the interview panel testifies that the person was not selected specifically because of her gender/race/address. Or if there is a procedure of submitting written conclusions from each interviewer (as done in my company) prior to voting on each candidate, but even then the company won't share those forms filed for other candidates.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

osarusan wrote: »

Yeah, I can't see why anybody in the canteen would even know, seeing as how it was only revealed to the interviewer/interview team in the interview room a few minutes earlier.

And she looks very womanly. Not an obvious former man at all. I absolutely guarantee I would not have even looked up from whatever lunch slop I was chowing. And some people looking might have just been thinking “Who’s the noob?”.

keano_afc

The comment from Joanne Brown :eek:

https://www.facebook.com/belfasttelegraph/posts/10157641367168819?comment_id=10157641818748819&notif_id=1579178866058606&notif_t=feedback_reaction_generic

cruizer101

victor8600 wrote: »

WhatsApp. Also the article does not say that only few minutes have passed. It might have been an hour just as well.

How would it be an hour she said:

I left the interview room to walk through a canteen full of gawpers and starers, almost like people ready to burn the monster.

She literally walked out of interview and through the canteen, I would hazard a guess she may have felt people were staring but in reality they wern't. Whenever we feel self concious for any reason they think anyone who even glances at them is staring at them judgingly.

suicide_circus

do they have to give them the job now or is it just the 9k?

keano_afc

suicide_circus wrote: »

do they have to give them the job now or is it just the 9k?

Also, is there anything to stop this person doing this again?

victor8600

keano_afc wrote: »

Also, is there anything to stop this person doing this again?

Give her a good non-discriminating job?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

I often wonder if these job discrimination cases end up being counterproductive for the person pursuing them, even if they win. Well, the ones that attract the media’s attention anyway. Their name is then out there and another prospective employer might think “Hassle” and not even call them to interview if they google people before doing so. I supposed they can have their name removed from searches.

marieholmfan

cruizer101 wrote: »

How would it be an hour she said:

I left the interview room to walk through a canteen full of gawpers and starers, almost like people ready to burn the monster.

She literally walked out of interview and through the canteen, I would hazard a guess she may have felt people were staring but in reality they wern't. Whenever we feel self concious for any reason they think anyone who even glances at them is staring at them judgingly.

I'm not especially pro trans rights but the change in tone when she handed over the documents is credible.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I often wonder if these job discrimination cases end up being counterproductive for the person pursuing them, even if they win. Well, the ones that attract the media’s attention anyway. Their name is then out there and another prospective employer might think “Hassle” and not even call them to interview if they google people before doing so. I supposed they can have their name removed from searches.

Eva Moore?
Sure there'd be dozens of about the right age.

riffmongous

keano_afc wrote: »

The comment from Joanne Brown :eek:

https://www.facebook.com/belfasttelegraph/posts/10157641367168819?comment_id=10157641818748819&notif_id=1579178866058606&notif_t=feedback_reaction_generic

Not available anymore

Strumms

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

She was asked for her birth cert in the interview?

If I was asked for that document during an interview I’d walk out. I’m not giving that to any employer.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

marieholmfan wrote: »

I'm not especially pro trans rights but the change in tone when she handed over the documents is credible.



Eva Moore?
Sure there'd be dozens of about the right age.

Ava Moore.

We only have her word that the tone changed. The canteen comment makes me doubt her.

padd b1975

suicide_circus wrote: »

do they have to give them the job now or is it just the 9k?

Money makes the boo-hoos go away don't you know.

victor8600

keano_afc wrote: »

Basically said .... Moore was caught red handed.

1) Pretty poor deflection attempt from the topic.
2) Is "Joanne Brown" your FB alias by any chance?

padd b1975

victor8600 wrote: »

1) Pretty poor deflection attempt from the topic.
2) Is "Joanne Brown" your FB alias by any chance?

Pretty good example of dishonesty and criminality, not exactly the type of traits a potential employer would be looking for, particularly in retail.

suicide_circus

cant see the joanne brown thing, what did it say?

victor8600

suicide_circus wrote: »

cant see the joanne brown thing, what did it say?

I took a screenshot

suicide_circus

victor8600 wrote: »

I took a screenshot

something you dont like was it?

keano_afc

suicide_circus wrote: »

cant see the joanne brown thing, what did it say?

https://twitter.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1217773291886256129

Its shown in this thread

suicide_circus

keano_afc wrote: »

https://twitter.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1217773291886256129

Its shown in this thread

ah right. i suppose that's about as plausible as the anonymous email.