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The murder of Keane Mulready Woods.

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    #542
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    starbaby2003 wrote: »
    Area has a massive input. It is much better to be poor and dysfunctional in a middleclass/ rich area than it is to be middleclass in a poor area. This is why ex council houses in affluent areas sell for more than a four bed semi in poorer areas. Resources in Ireland are scarce, just look at waiting lists for children’s services in DunLaoighaire Versus Finglas

    Again the underlying belief is that there must be a complete state panoply of support services so that some people have children and it is the duty of the state to co raise them or raise them completely. There always has to be a service available. Many many people don’t need them. Why is that? Because a personal dysfunction feeds into a lot of these problems.


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    #543
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    kippy wrote: »
    Are you suggesting that our current regime of "light touch" sentencing in "holiday home" jails is working - or indeed the judiciarys habit of letting people off with multiple "convictions"?

    Not saying that harsher sentences in harsher prisons are the only solution but they need to be part of it.

    Standard practice for liberals to provide zero examples of their approach working yet still demanding they know best and we must continue to trust said approach


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    #544
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    kippy wrote: »
    Are you suggesting that our current regime of "light touch" sentencing in "holiday home" jails is working - or indeed the judiciarys habit of letting people off with multiple "convictions"?

    Not saying that harsher sentences in harsher prisons are the only solution but they need to be part of it.

    I think a “carrot and stick” method in terms of harsher sentences for dealing and violent crime, combined with investment in communities.


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    #545
    begbysback
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,910 ✭✭✭begbysback


    kippy wrote: »
    Are you suggesting that our current regime of "light touch" sentencing in "holiday home" jails is working - or indeed the judiciarys habit of letting people off with multiple "convictions"?

    Not saying that harsher sentences in harsher prisons are the only solution but they need to be part of it.

    No, I’m saying making punishment harsher has proven to be ineffective, neither have I stated that the current regime is working, I agree there is a need for an alternative approach, but I certainly dismiss the idea that harsher punishment is the answer, it has been historically proven ineffective with regards to prevention, or rehabilitation - apparently that makes me a left wing liberalist!!

    What I do like to see is different approaches, such as that in Scandinavian countries with regards to criminals, and Portugal with regards to drug addiction. These are new approaches and its maybe too soon to report on long term impact, but the initial assessments look positive.

    Unfortunately it seems in this country we are so far away from change, but it has to be said to those who think “make drugs illegal, that’ll stop them” No it won’t, or “lock them up for longer, that’ll teach them” No it doesn’t.


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    #546
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 33,662 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Someone arrested over the murder.


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    #547
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    KiKi III wrote: »
    I think a “carrot and stick” method in terms of harsher sentences for dealing and violent crime, combined with investment in communities.

    We've had nothing but carrot for decades


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    #548
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    Exactly, harsher punishments can increase the price and profits which leads to even more extreme violence.
    This has been shown to be the case worldwide, I can't think of a reason why Ireland would be different but I would be interested in hearing the argument for this point of view.


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    #549
    careless sherpa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 373 ✭✭careless sherpa


    begbysback wrote: »
    No, I’m saying making punishment harsher has proven to be ineffective, neither have I stated that the current regime is working, I agree there is a need for an alternative approach, but I certainly dismiss the idea that harsher punishment is the answer, it has been historically proven ineffective with regards to prevention, or rehabilitation - apparently that makes me a left wing liberalist!!

    What I do like to see is different approaches, such as that in Scandinavian countries with regards to criminals, and Portugal with regards to drug addiction. These are new approaches and its maybe too soon to report on long term impact, but the initial assessments look positive.

    Unfortunately it seems in this country we are so far away from change, but it has to be said to those who think “make drugs illegal, that’ll stop them” No it won’t, or “lock them up for longer, that’ll teach them” No it doesn’t.

    People always choose the USA in thesearguments. Look at a country like Singapore where the stick is literally used. The state caning strikes fear into anyone so even petty crime or anti social behavior is non existent


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    #550
    omega man
    Registered Users Posts: 4,885 ✭✭✭omega man


    splinter65 wrote: »
    That’s because there is a link between the two. Children growing up in a two parent household have a much better chance of a good life then those in a lone parent situation. Nobody is blaming the lone parent for anything. It’s just a proven fact.

    Disagree.
    I grew up in a council estate in Dublin in the 80s with a single parent. However, I did very well in life mainly due to my mothers sheer determination and hard work ethic (which I inherited thankfully).

    Here’s the thing though, many of my neighbours of similar age from back then ended up on different paths leading to crime and drug addiction etc. Nearly all of them had 2 parents living with them. In most cases either 2 useless parents (alcoholics etc) or one dominant sometimes abuse parent, usually a father. One good parent should normally be enough.


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    #551
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,602 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    begbysback wrote: »
    No, I’m saying making punishment harsher has proven to be ineffective, neither have I stated that the current regime is working, I agree there is a need for an alternative approach, but I certainly dismiss the idea that harsher punishment is the answer, it has been historically proven ineffective with regards to prevention, or rehabilitation - apparently that makes me a left wing liberalist!!

    What I do like to see is different approaches, such as that in Scandinavian countries with regards to criminals, and Portugal with regards to drug addiction. These are new approaches and its maybe too soon to report on long term impact, but the initial assessments look positive.

    Unfortunately it seems in this country we are so far away from change, but it has to be said to those who think “make drugs illegal, that’ll stop them” No it won’t, or “lock them up for longer, that’ll teach them” No it doesn’t.

    We've never tried making punishment harsher - the opposite is what we've done and the situation is getting worse.
    Why not talk about Singapore?


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    #552
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    kippy wrote: »
    We've never tried making punishment harsher - the opposite is what we've done and the situation is getting worse.
    Why not talk about Singapore?

    I am aware of drug laws in Singapore but my info is out of date
    This is the first result I got when I googled drug use Singapore.

    https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/drug-crime-singapore-cost-new-study-12288884

    Looks like Singapore needs to drastically change their drug law policy.


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    #553
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,602 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    tuxy wrote: »
    I am aware of drug laws in Singapore but my info is out of date
    This is the first result I got when I google drug use Singapore.

    https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/drug-crime-singapore-cost-new-study-12288884

    I was speaking more about the punishments for crime in general.
    https://www.osac.gov/Country/Singapore/Content/Detail/Report/18a3edfe-4790-4488-a6d3-15f4aeb05634


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    #554
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    kippy wrote: »
    I was speaking more about the punishments for crime in general.

    What good is harsh punishment if it makes the problem worse?


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    #555
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,602 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    tuxy wrote: »
    What good is harsh punishment if it makes the problem worse?

    https://www.osac.gov/Country/Singapore/Content/Detail/Report/18a3edfe-4790-4488-a6d3-15f4aeb05634
    What problem is worse? If you want to start comparing the problems of drug related crimes in Ireland versus there - fire away!


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    #556
    Mantis Toboggan
    Registered Users Posts: 18,018 ✭✭✭✭Mantis Toboggan


    tuxy wrote: »
    What good is harsh punishment if it makes the problem worse?

    Takes them off the street and stops them re-offending.

    I would have thought that was obvious.

    Free Palestine 🇵🇸



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    #557
    Duke of Url
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,662 ✭✭✭Duke of Url


    NIMAN wrote: »
    Someone arrested over the murder.

    I think the person you may be talking about was arrested over breaching bail conditions.


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    #558
    begbysback
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,910 ✭✭✭begbysback


    kippy wrote: »
    We've never tried making punishment harsher - the opposite is what we've done and the situation is getting worse.
    Why not talk about Singapore?

    Because it’s difficult to trust any reports coming from a government which suppresses freedom of speech, and limits movements.

    There are plenty of countries with harsher punishments than ours, I’m a patient man, I’ll wait for someone to post a report from a trusted source showing harsher punishment has shown long term decreases in crime.


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    #559
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    kippy wrote: »
    https://www.osac.gov/Country/Singapore/Content/Detail/Report/18a3edfe-4790-4488-a6d3-15f4aeb05634
    What problem is worse? If you want to start comparing the problems of drug related crimes in Ireland versus there - fire away!

    Most of that is culture not crime/punishment related.
    Singapore is a city state with a very different culture.

    Wouldn't it be more useful to learn from some of the European countries that have a lower crime index than Singapore?


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    #560
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,602 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    begbysback wrote: »
    Because it’s difficult to trust any reports coming from a government which suppresses freedom of speech, and limits movements.

    There are plenty of countries with harsher punishments than ours, I’m a patient man, I’ll wait for someone to post a report from a trusted source showing harsher punishment has shown long term decreases in crime.

    Fair enough.


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    #561
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    KiKi III wrote: »
    Do you honestly believe that a kid born in Dalkey to two successful working parents and a kid born in Darndale to a single mother in a minimum wage job have the same shot in life?

    You obviously think the child in Darndale is at a disadvantage. So, what are those disadvantages specifically?


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    #562
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,602 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    tuxy wrote: »
    Most of that is culture not crime/punishment related.
    Singapore is a city state with a very different culture.

    Wouldn't it be more useful to learn from some of the European countries that have a lower crime index than Singapore?

    Maybe. But again, if you don't think there's an issue with sentencing or lack thereof in this country, you are starting from a position of "head in the sand".


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    #563
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    splinter65 wrote: »
    You obviously think the child in Darndale is at a disadvantage. So, what are those disadvantages specifically?

    I grew up with none of the opportunities afforded to young people in Dalkey.

    No yachting club being the standout example


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    #564
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    Mantis Toboggan wrote: »
    Takes them off the street and stops them re-offending.

    I would have thought that was obvious.

    It is. But on its own it doesn’t deal with more aspects of the problem: drug addiction, dysfunctional people, dysfunctional families, single parent families, absence of any work ethic, absence of CAB action against middle level, illegality of any gang and laws that define that, ....

    If you remove two gangs in Drogheda/North Dublin to internment some others will form to fill the vacuum. They will recruit from the same dysfunctional pool.


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    #565
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    kippy wrote: »
    Maybe. But again, if you don't think there's an issue with sentencing or lack thereof in this country, you are starting from a position of "head in the sand".

    Don't you think it would be stupid to not investigate how countries in Europe(Switzerland, Finland, Estonia, Austria, Denmark) have achieved such low crime rates?
    None of these countries have gone down the harsh punishment route.

    Out of interest why did you pick Singapore? It has a higher rate of crime than the countries I listed and an extremely different culture from Ireland.


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    #566
    begbysback
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,910 ✭✭✭begbysback


    Mantis Toboggan wrote: »
    Takes them off the street and stops them re-offending.

    I would have thought that was obvious.

    Yes, it is, actually it’s so obvious that it tends to instill blinkers on those who notice it.

    Trouble is it seems, while one person is standing in court receiving a sentence which will have them off the streets sir a long time, someone else is starting out on their path to crime, and will receive their sentence at some point in the future.

    Let’s take the blinkers off for a moment, and ask two questions. What can be done to rehabilitate in the first instance, and what can be done for prevention in the second instance?

    And no, I don’t have the answers, but by now we can safely say that harsher punishment has had zero impact on either scenarios.


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    #567
    terenc
    Registered Users Posts: 384 ✭✭terenc


    Duke of Url wrote: »
    I think the person you may be talking about was arrested over breaching bail conditions.
    The people who chopped him were out on bail or out on early release from prison . F*cking joke of a country.
    Judges in Ivory Towers and politicians out of touch with the tax payer.


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    #568
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    begbysback wrote: »

    And no, I don’t have the answers, but by now we can safely say that harsher punishment has had zero impact on either scenarios.

    Zero impact but I think a minority of people would get great satisfaction about reading about the sentences in the papers.


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    #569
    ChikiChiki
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭ChikiChiki


    splinter65 wrote: »
    You obviously think the child in Darndale is at a disadvantage. So, what are those disadvantages specifically?

    Calibre of parenting in a lot of cases for one. Very hard to break a cycle.


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    #570
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,602 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Ok,
    So stricter sentencing than what we currently have doesn't work. (Lets assume that for a while)

    Where do you start?


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    #571
    Dante7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,543 ✭✭✭Dante7


    KiKi III wrote: »
    Do you honestly believe that a kid born in Dalkey to two successful working parents and a kid born in Darndale to a single mother in a minimum wage job have the same shot in life?

    The latest studies have shown that the amount of parents or the sexuality of the parents us irrelevant. The single biggest determining factor is wealth. If a child has a wealthy single mother in Dalkey and another child has two unemployed parents in Darndale, which child is more likely to have a better outcome?


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