Saracens Salarygate: Automatic Relegation?

prawnsambo

awec wrote: »

Also need to factor in the payments made to players from places other than the IRFU, for example Sexton's private money contract top up.

Pretty much all of them (excluding new academy graduates) would have some personal sponsorships for cars etc. But that would also hold true for their English counterparts. I'm not sure if this kind of thing is included in the salary cap, but I'd assume it is for the sake of argument.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

Also need to factor in the payments made to players from places other than the IRFU, for example Sexton's private money contract top up.

Yeah but youd discount that for the marque players too, no? Of which Sexton is obviously one.

It should also be noted that direct comparisons to their cap would be a bit daft in some ways as we have less teams to spread the same number of internationals around. So while we would get credits for them, we're still factoring in the vast majority of their salaries plus needing additional guys to cover their absences. I'd almost guarantee that if they only had 4 pro teams in England the cap would be higher than it is to account for that.

AdamD

prawnsambo wrote: »

Pretty much all of them (excluding new academy graduates) would have some personal sponsorships for cars etc. But that would also hold true for their English counterparts. I'm not sure if this kind of thing is included in the salary cap, but I'd assume it is for the sake of argument.

Personal sponsorships absolutely wouldn't be included, unless you're up to some Faz holdings with Nigel Wray shenanigans

prawnsambo

Former Former wrote: »

Nope. There are separate costs called out for "National tours, camps and squads" (1.4 million) and "National match costs" (3.6 million).

Player and management costs are 40.5 million. A few million here and there doesn't change the overall picture that the Irish lads aren't massively underpaid.

Fair enough. But there are a lot of people employed by the IRFU who could come under that heading. Here's the national team staff from last year:


National Team Coach: Joe Schmidt
National Team Manager: Paul Dean
Assistant Coach, Forwards: Simon Easterby
Technical Resource Coach: Greg Feek
Assistant Coach, Defense: Andy Farrell
National Team Skills Coach/National Academy Coach: Richie Murphy
National Team Strength & Conditioning Coach: Jason Cowman
National Team Technical Analyst: Mervyn Murphy
Performance Analyst: Vincent Hammond
Kit & Logistics Coordinator: John Moran


Then there's the referees - are they part of professional game costs? I would think so tbh:


Head of Referees: Dudley Philips
National Referee Manager: David Wilkinson
Referee Development /Education Manager: Peter Fitzgibbon
High Performance Referee: Sean Gallagher
Referee Development Manager: Chris Harrington
Referee Development Manager: Richard Kerr
Elite Referees: Andy Brace, David Wilkinson, Frank Murphy, John Lacey, Joy Neville, Sean Gallagher
Referee Coordinator: Julie Moran
Referee Coordinator: Neysa Herity


And then the likes of Nucifora and Peter Smyth who come under the general heading of 'Rugby'. Some of these (like the U20s coaching staff) come under a different heading, but a good few will not:


Performance Director: David Nucifora
P.A. to Performance Director: Cathy McGonigle
Business Intelligence Analyst: Claire Wallace
Business Intelligence Analyst: Gillian McDarby
Head of Elite Player Development: Peter Smyth
National Talent Development Manager: Hendrik Kruger
Head of Elite Performance & Science: Nick Winkelman
Data Scientist: Andrew Whale
National Talent Athletic Development Coach: Martin Kennedy
Ireland U19s Head Coach / Ireland U20 Assistant Coach: Tom Tierney
Performance Analyst (HPU): John Buckley
Head of International Talent ID & Development: Joe Lydon
IQ Rugby Talent ID Coach: Kevin Maggs
IQ Regional Talent ID Coach: Steven McGinnis
National Talent Coordinator: Wayne Mitchell


Even if you cut half of them out, that's a lot of people. And it doesn't include the nine people listed under 'medical and nutrition' and obviously the non-core staff in HR, Finance, Ticketing, Marketing, IT and Operations.

I presume that figure would include all the provincial coaches as well.

prawnsambo

Melina Unsightly Apparel wrote: »

I presume that figure would include all the provincial coaches as well.

It's hard to know. The provinces have their own income as well. Gate receipts, TV money, merchandise and sponsorship for instance.

Bazzo

Melina Unsightly Apparel wrote: »

I presume that figure would include all the provincial coaches as well.

Also any grassroots costs for refereeing etc. Absolutely loads of stuff.

prawnsambo

Bazzo wrote: »

Also any grassroots costs for refereeing etc. Absolutely loads of stuff.

They wouldn't be considered 'professional game costs' though. And probably handled at provincial level (for referees for club games etc.). You can see above what referee systems and staff the IRFU pay for and all seem to be focused around the professional game.

Quin_Dub

RobbieRuns wrote: »

Not so much as go to England for a big pay day, for me it is players at the end of their cycle (just past their best) who can go to England for a pay day. Not a huge pay day, but better than they would get here. Players like Tomas O'Leary to London Irish, Donnacha O'C to Worcester, Stringer to Sarries/Bath/worcester

Absolutely - In almost all those cases the player moved when they dropped out of the Central contract system and moved back to a provincial one.

The move to the UK kept them at the National contract salary level rather then increasing their salary more than likely..

RobbieRuns

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Absolutely - In almost all those cases the player moved when they dropped out of the Central contract system and moved back to a provincial one.

The move to the UK kept them at the National contract salary level rather then increasing their salary more than likely..

Good point. I actually missed Sean O'Brien, started in London in December, which I assume was when his central contract ran out? He would have been contracted up to the end of the World Cup cycle. He has done very well financially to agree a new contract, then go for his operation on the old hip.

I would say that moving from a Central Contract to a provincial one would be a big drop in wages. Rob Kearney might have done that.

randomrb

RobbieRuns wrote: »

Good point. I actually missed Sean O'Brien, started in London in December, which I assume was when his central contract ran out? He would have been contracted up to the end of the World Cup cycle. He has done very well financially to agree a new contract, then go for his operation on the old hip.

I would say that moving from a Central Contract to a provincial one would be a big drop in wages. Rob Kearney might have done that.

I have heard a few ex-players mention in interviews that the IRFU are very hard negotiators with older players, the likes of Kearney would be on relatively small money. thats why the likes of SOB, Connacha ryan, O'connell all looked abroad as the IRFU give small short contracts to older players

randomrb

randomrb wrote: »

I have heard a few ex-players mention in interviews that the IRFU are very hard negotiators with older players, the likes of Kearney would be on relatively small money. thats why the likes of SOB, Connacha ryan, O'connell all looked abroad as the IRFU give small short contracts to older players

I remember D'Arcy talking about this in one of his articles, think he said his pay dropped quite a lot once he got into his 30s. Sexton is probably the one exception to that at the moment but I'd say he's well past his peak earnings as well.

randomrb

randomrb wrote: »

I have heard a few ex-players mention in interviews that the IRFU are very hard negotiators with older players, the likes of Kearney would be on relatively small money. thats why the likes of SOB, Connacha ryan, O'connell all looked abroad as the IRFU give small short contracts to older players

Newstalk interviewed Kearney after he signed his last deal. He wanted two years and they said no, he admitted he took a huge drop in pay to stay in Leinster but that is where he wants to stay so he was happy to do that. It keeps him where he wants to be and near his future family and his business interests. As he dropped out of central contract he will also have been aware that he shouldn't be expecting Irish caps either as they will likely have told him as much when a CC wasn't offered.

lawrencesummers

randomrb wrote: »

I have heard a few ex-players mention in interviews that the IRFU are very hard negotiators with older players, the likes of Kearney would be on relatively small money. thats why the likes of SOB, Connacha ryan, O'connell all looked abroad as the IRFU give small short contracts to older players

The fact that Kearney is on a central contract disputes your beliefs somewhat. What an utter waste of a central contract

typhoony

not sure if it's already been mentioned but the English RFU is set to invoke the exceptional Circumstance rule for next year to allow the England players currently at Saracens to play wherever they like, be great to see Itoje or Farrell over here.

Squidgy Black

typhoony wrote: »

not sure if it's already been mentioned but the English RFU is set to invoke the exceptional Circumstance rule for next year to allow the England players currently at Saracens to play wherever they like, be great to see Itoje or Farrell over here.

If they replaced existing NIQs at the end of the season I'd probably be fine with it. Wouldn't be mad on having big name players coming over for a year and displacing young Irish players in favour of short terms success for the provinces and in turn helping the English team out by having them playing at a higher level domestically than they would be in the championship.

Clegg

lawrencesummers wrote: »

The fact that Kearney is on a central contract disputes your beliefs somewhat. What an utter waste of a central contract

Ireland's undisputed first choice fullback for a decade was a waste of a central contract.

Nice one.

Former Former

The only purpose that central contracts serve is to make people angry that their favoured player doesn't have one and the guy they hate does.

Long may they continue.

Squidgy Black

Steve Lansdown (the Bristol Bears owner) hasn't held back either:

At the end of the day they cheated and they have been found guilty and they have to accept their punishment.

“They have brought the game into disrepute. There are 13 clubs [the 12 Premiership clubs and Newcastle Falcons] who have all signed up to the salary cap, including Saracens, and they have decided to put two fingers up to it and do their own thing and they feel almost aggrieved that we are upset about it.”

“Anything they have achieved over the last couple of years is going to be tainted.”

Premiership Rugby have held firm to their approach of avoiding full disclosure.

But Lansdown, party to the meetings held with other Premiership clubs, believes relegation had been a long-time coming given the suspicions many within the game had.

Joining Tony Rowe in condemning Saracens flouting of the salary cap, Lansdown added: “It has taken a while to get that [Saracens’ relegation]. I think it should have happened quicker and sharper but that is another matter.

“I find it very strange in a way that they can continue their league programme this year as they will with the same players. I find that unhelpful.

“They are making a lot of noises at Saracens, they have apologised which is the first thing and now we need to see what they are going to do to put things right.

“They committed a sin and they have to repent for it.

“Now they are going to be in the Championship next year, now there are a lot of aspects to sort behind the scenes.

“They have got some very difficult decisions to make, the players have got some very difficult decisions to make, the management have got some very difficult decisions to make.

“They probably haven’t woken up to the reality of what is in store for them.”

BonnieSituation

The more I think about it the more it's ridiculous that they're continuing to play on and have an active effect on everybody else's season.

I'm taking it that there's no way for them to be expelled?

Guy:Incognito

Anyone listen to Venter on the Rugby Union Weekly podcast (5 live). Jesus, everyone is just out to get Sarries. Poor Nigel Wray is just naive and didnt deliberately cheat.

He was on the Rugby Pod too, but havnt got back to listen to it, I assume more of the same.

lawrencesummers

Clegg wrote: »

Ireland's undisputed first choice fullback for a decade was a waste of a central contract.

Nice one.

Contracts are given on the basis of future performance, not pastt, and yes a player on a central contract that isn’t good enough to make the squad is a mistake and a waste of a central contract.

Dog Botherer

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Anyone listen to Venter on the Rugby Union Weekly podcast (5 live). Jesus, everyone is just out to get Sarries. Poor Nigel Wray is just naive and didnt deliberately cheat.

He was on the Rugby Pod too, but havnt got back to listen to it, I assume more of the same.

every interview with anyone related to Saracens lately has been absolute crash stuff. suspect there's plenty more to come out.

Dravokivich

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Contracts are given on the basis of future performance, not pastt, and yes a player on a central contract that isn’t good enough to make the squad is a mistake and a waste of a central contract.

First squad he didn't make, is the last competition of his last year.

Squidgy Black

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Contracts are given on the basis of future performance, not pastt, and yes a player on a central contract that isn’t good enough to make the squad is a mistake and a waste of a central contract.

He's been on short contracts since the end of 2017. Signed an 18 month one, then he was given a one year extension last summer. When he was still the starting 15. It runs out in a couple of months. And was reportedly extremely low compared to his previous ones. How is that a waste of a central contract?

fitz

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Anyone listen to Venter on the Rugby Union Weekly podcast (5 live). Jesus, everyone is just out to get Sarries. Poor Nigel Wray is just naive and didnt deliberately cheat.

He was on the Rugby Pod too, but havnt got back to listen to it, I assume more of the same.

Yeah, he was spouting the same kinda rubbish on the Rugby Pod. Completely delusional.

The Lost Sheep

prawnsambo wrote: »

Fair enough. But there are a lot of people employed by the IRFU who could come under that heading.

Then there's the referees - are they part of professional game costs? I would think so tbh:

a lot of those you list would come under that heading. I'm fairly sure refs dont as they would be under different area.

And then the likes of Nucifora and Peter Smyth who come under the general heading of 'Rugby'. Some of these (like the U20s coaching staff) come under a different heading,

Performance Director: David Nucifora
P.A. to Performance Director: Cathy McGonigle
Business Intelligence Analyst: Claire Wallace
Business Intelligence Analyst: Gillian McDarby
Head of Elite Player Development: Peter Smyth
National Talent Development Manager: Hendrik Kruger
Head of Elite Performance & Science: Nick Winkelman
Data Scientist: Andrew Whale
National Talent Athletic Development Coach: Martin Kennedy
Ireland U19s Head Coach / Ireland U20 Assistant Coach: Tom Tierney
Performance Analyst (HPU): John Buckley
Head of International Talent ID & Development: Joe Lydon
IQ Rugby Talent ID Coach: Kevin Maggs
IQ Regional Talent ID Coach: Steven McGinnis
National Talent Coordinator: Wayne Mitchell
Even if you cut half of them out, that's a lot of people. And it doesn't include the nine people listed under 'medical and nutrition' and obviously the non-core staff in HR, Finance, Ticketing, Marketing, IT and Operations.

you can cut most of them though as it's all not to do with pro rugby though

Bazzo wrote: »

Also any grassroots costs for refereeing etc. Absolutely loads of stuff.

not relevant though to this though

lawrencesummers

Squidgy Black wrote: »

He's been on short contracts since the end of 2017. Signed an 18 month one, then he was given a one year extension last summer. When he was still the starting 15. It runs out in a couple of months. And was reportedly extremely low compared to his previous ones. How is that a waste of a central contract?

Because he’s not good enough.

lawrencesummers

Dravokivich wrote: »

First squad he didn't make, is the last I competition of his last year.

Central contracts are few and far between, no player should be getting one unless they are a cert, injury aside of making the Match day squad. Kearney isn’t even able to make the extended Training squad.

It’s a waste of a contract and contradicts the OP’s view that the IRFU are top notch negotiators.

pickarooney

What are the chances of the RFU signing star players to a central contact so the Premiership clubs can sign them with a small top up?

I think the FFR did that for a handful of players including Vakatawa.

RugbyLover123

It’s farcical stuff from anyone defending Sarries that has been involved in the organisation. Anyone claiming Nigel Wray was naive and didn’t know he was doing anything wrong only needs to go and look at the names of the co-investments to know they knew what they were doing wasn't right.

prawnsambo

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

a lot of those you list would come under that heading. I'm fairly sure refs dont as they would be under different area.

Mind telling me where in the accounts their salaries would be included if not under professional game costs?

prawnsambo

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Central contracts are few and far between, no player should be getting one unless they are a cert, injury aside of making the Match day squad. Kearney isn’t even able to make the extended Training squad.

It’s a waste of a contract and contradicts the OP’s view that the IRFU are top notch negotiators.

You don't know what he's being paid, so you're just waffling.

Jump_In_Jack

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Central contracts are few and far between, no player should be getting one unless they are a cert, injury aside of making the Match day squad. Kearney isn’t even able to make the extended Training squad.

It’s a waste of a contract and contradicts the OP’s view that the IRFU are top notch negotiators.

Did you consider that he could have left Ireland for a french or japanese club for more money and a longer contract before the World Cup but the Irfu wanted him enough to make a deal to give him a one year extension?
Seems like a good deal for both sides.

lawrencesummers

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Did you consider that he could have left Ireland for a french or japanese club for more money before the World Cup but the Irfu wanted him enough to make a deal to give him a one year extension?
Seems like a good deal for both sides.

Did you consider that he negotiated his contract under the Hollow threat of leaving for a French of Japanese club that would have ruled him out of the World Cup and the IRFU have Called his bluff because he wasn’t going anywhere.

lawrencesummers

prawnsambo wrote: »

You don't know what he's being paid, so you're just waffling.

Indeed I do.

The Lost Sheep

prawnsambo wrote: »

Mind telling me where in the accounts their salaries would be included if not under professional game costs?

They're not the pro game. Refs would be game support costs. Think annual report separates them as that. Reffing doesnt come under pro game in costs.

Bazzo

Yeah, sorry, for some reason I thought the budget was for "Professional game and development"

sydthebeat

lawrencesummers wrote: »

The fact that Kearney is on a central contract disputes your beliefs somewhat. What an utter waste of a central contract

Rob kearney getting a central contract did not in any possible way restrict any one else from also getting a central contract.

These are not pub licences they are handing out.

connemara man

MOD NOTE

This thread is for Saracens chat I don't know how Irish Central contracts and who's on them and the merits of them has come into it but it stops now

prawnsambo

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

They're not the pro game. Refs would be game support costs. Think annual report separates them as that. Reffing doesnt come under pro game in costs.

Thanks. Yeah, Game support costs which only has referee costs in it. €550k approx.

Squidgy Black

fitz wrote: »

Yeah, he was spouting the same kinda rubbish on the Rugby Pod. Completely delusional.

To sum up Venters argument on the Rugby Pod:

"Nobody kept a book on salaries, Nigel Wray just negotiated with the players and gave them what they want"

"It's not that they spent loads of money on new players, it's that the existing squad became so great they had to be paid more"

"We were barely over the cap because of a few injuries this season, and took relegation because we didn't want to have to immediately cut 2 or 3 big players"

Eod100

RFU might be looking into punishing Saracens further: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2020/01/21/rfu-considering-saracens-misconduct-investigation-possible-disciplinary/

prawnsambo

Squidgy Black wrote: »

To sum up Venters argument on the Rugby Pod:

"Nobody kept a book on salaries, Nigel Wray just negotiated with the players and gave them what they want"

"It's not that they spent loads of money on new players, it's that the existing squad became so great they had to be paid more"

"We were barely over the cap because of a few injuries this season, and took relegation because we didn't want to have to immediately cut 2 or 3 big players"

Sounds like the Bertie Ahern defence. I never had a cheque buke. And I didn't need to have account bukes like.

The rest of it sounds just like that interview he gave. "I'll have to think about it. Think deeply. Very deeply".

Jump_In_Jack

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Did you consider that he negotiated his contract under the Hollow threat of leaving for a French of Japanese club that would have ruled him out of the World Cup and the IRFU have Called his bluff because he wasn’t going anywhere.

You’re now saying they called his bluff?
So which is it, did they negotiate badly or did they negotiate well?
You’re contradicting yourself.
They clearly were happy to retain his services for the World Cup for the cost of a one year central contract, the fullback position was not particularly stacked with international level alternatives so it was a shrewd deal, even taking into account that he has been dropped now since the World Cup.
Also, like for any well-run organisation, it’s good for the reputation of the IRFU and for future negotiations to be seen as an organisation that tends to look after long-serving players.

lawrencesummers

Eod100 wrote: »

RFU might be looking into punishing Saracens further: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2020/01/21/rfu-considering-saracens-misconduct-investigation-possible-disciplinary/

They will have to, because if sarries keep playing the way they are then a run up the table is entirely possible that will put them into the playoff and a possibility of winning the league that they are to be relegated from. The 35 point deduction simply isn’t enough to ensure they don’t do that.

Squidgy Black

I don't understand how PRL haven't just made them open their books and made the accounts public yet.

That's the most infuriating thing about the whole situation, the rumours and statements with conflicting information, Sarries denying everything and then PRL handing down sanctions saying the opposite.

Just make it official public knowledge that they broke the cap by X amount for each of the seasons.

lawrencesummers

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I don't understand how PRL haven't just made them open their books and made the accounts public yet.

That's the most infuriating thing about the whole situation, the rumours and statements with conflicting information, Sarries denying everything and then PRL handing down sanctions saying the opposite.

Just make it official public knowledge that they broke the cap by X amount for each of the seasons.

Because the rules that govern it are not strong enough.

prawnsambo

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I don't understand how PRL haven't just made them open their books and made the accounts public yet.

That's the most infuriating thing about the whole situation, the rumours and statements with conflicting information, Sarries denying everything and then PRL handing down sanctions saying the opposite.

Just make it official public knowledge that they broke the cap by X amount for each of the seasons.

They already said how much they broke the cap by afaik. Figures of £1.2 and £1.3 million for two seasons were published that I've seen.

lawrencesummers

prawnsambo wrote: »

They already said how much they broke the cap by afaik. Figures of £1.2 and £1.3 million for two seasons were published that I've seen.

Link?